Fork maintenance failure

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gixxerjasen

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I hate wrenching. Ugh. It never goes right.

I sat through watching an experienced guy change out fork seals, I've watched a zillion youtube videos, read a zillion forum threads and figured I could tackle this and ordered all my parts and tools I should need.

Everything was going along well and smooth, which means that it's all building up for epic failure. Heck, my impact gun got the bottom nuts off easy peasy.

But...when it came time to hammer out the bushings and seals it did not go well. The seal wouldn't budge and now I can only presume that the bushings have bound up inside because my one fork upper won't move up or down. The second one is feeling and acting exactly the same as the first so I haven't pushed it as I don't want two of them stuck.

I'm considering a run to the auto parts store for a propane torch but am worried I might jack things up further. My other option is sucking it up and taking these to the dealer. Either way, I might be screwed for my weekend getaway next week. Ugh...any suggestions?

 
I am sorry my friend. If it makes you feel any better I just finished diagnosing a bad ECU on my Honda ST. I am so miserable over my bike being broken that Mrs. Redfish has suggested I buy a new bike.

I'm drinking a beer and being miserable enough for both of us right now. Good luck.

 
Did you remove the seal's retaining clip?
Yep, if you didn't pull the clip, you won't get the bushings out. If you did try to pull against the clip, you will need to drive the seal and bushing back down to take the pressure off the clip to get it out

 
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Did you remove the seal's retaining clip?
Yep, if you didn't pull the clip, you won't get the bushings out. If you did try to pull against the clip, you will need to drive the seal and bushing back down to take the pressure off the clip to get it out
If it's not coming out apply heat around the top of the fork, I had a really tough bushing and took it to GP and they used a torch on the upper fork and it came out.

 
Did you remove the seal's retaining clip?
Dang, I knew this question would come up and I meant to address it in the original post.



Having seen some from another manufacturer,I have to say I like the little bent up ones better than these. I have no idea how long I spent chasing these damn things around the forks.
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So I take it the answer was Yes, I did have the c-clips out.

The 2nd gen fork is harder to do than the first gen because there are three bushings. So, you have to make the bottom one (captive on the bottom of the inner leg) dislodge the middle one first, and then drive the middle one into the upper bushing and pop out the seal. Folks who have done this generally agree that it is impossible to get these bushings out without banging the crap out of them and they will need to be replaced.

I know that you probably don't want to hear this right now, but... The superior first gen forks have only 2 bushings and so it's pretty easy to pop them out and have them be in good enough shape to re-install.

Here's the good news, and the reason I mentioned the above. Once you get past this impasse, you too can have just the superior two fork bushing designs. Just don't reinstall the middle bushings. They were a bad idea to begin with, cause the bushings to wear out faster and serve no particularly useful purpose anyway, IMO.

As usual YMMV

 
Here's the good news, and the reason I mentioned the above. Once you get past this impasse, you too can have just the superior two fork bushing designs. Just don't reinstall the middle bushings. They were a bad idea to begin with, cause the bushings to wear out faster and serve no particularly useful purpose anyway, IMO.
As usual YMMV
I think you are half right...you can leave out the middle bushing and effectively convert the GEN2 forks to GEN1 forks but that is not a good thing except for future maintenance. The middle bushing was Yamaha's attempt to increase fork rigidity and compete with inverted forks and it has been at least partially successful, the GEN2s have always had a better ride and handling than the GEN1s, but they are harder to work on when its time to replace bushings and seals. I think it is a good trade off and when I replace my 08's bushings a new middle bushing is going to be installed.

 
Here's the good news, and the reason I mentioned the above. Once you get past this impasse, you too can have just the superior two fork bushing designs. Just don't reinstall the middle bushings. They were a bad idea to begin with, cause the bushings to wear out faster and serve no particularly useful purpose anyway, IMO.
As usual YMMV
I think you are half right...you can leave out the middle bushing and effectively convert the GEN2 forks to GEN1 forks but that is not a good thing except for future maintenance. The middle bushing was Yamaha's attempt to increase fork rigidity and compete with inverted forks and it has been at least partially successful, the GEN2s have always had a better ride and handling than the GEN1s, but they are harder to work on when its time to replace bushings and seals. I think it is a good trade off and when I replace my 08's bushings a new middle bushing is going to be installed.
Yup...I'm under the impression that middle bushing is the reason the GenIIs don't need (benefit from) a fork brace. The last time my forks were done, it was my lower bushings that had to be replaced. The middle and uppers were fine.

 
I got all three if I can get the suckers apart. Going in search of a torch after work.

 
Here's the good news, and the reason I mentioned the above. Once you get past this impasse, you too can have just the superior two fork bushing designs. Just don't reinstall the middle bushings. They were a bad idea to begin with, cause the bushings to wear out faster and serve no particularly useful purpose anyway, IMO.
As usual YMMV
I think you are half right...you can leave out the middle bushing and effectively convert the GEN2 forks to GEN1 forks but that is not a good thing except for future maintenance. The middle bushing was Yamaha's attempt to increase fork rigidity and compete with inverted forks and it has been at least partially successful, the GEN2s have always had a better ride and handling than the GEN1s, but they are harder to work on when its time to replace bushings and seals. I think it is a good trade off and when I replace my 08's bushings a new middle bushing is going to be installed.
Yup...I'm under the impression that middle bushing is the reason the GenIIs don't need (benefit from) a fork brace. The last time my forks were done, it was my lower bushings that had to be replaced. The middle and uppers were fine.
First gens don't need a fork brace either. People that make (and sell you) fork braces think that every bike needs a fork brace. For what exactly? What are these magic dog bone brace supposed to be bracing against? The forks actually work considerably better without one in my experience.

Earlier this morning I had typed up a long description explaining how the 3rd bushing don't do anything and are actually detrimental to fluid fork action, complete with pencil drawings of how the forks flexed under load, but then decided it was too long winded, and people around here think I'm full of hot air already, so I deleted the whole mess.

I'll just summarize and say that, IMO the middle bushing doesn't do anything positive for fork flex, and it does create a lot of negative.

Ask the suspension experts at GP or Race Tech what they do when they rebuild an FJR fork. You'll find that they intentionally leave out the middle bushings so the forks will have better compliance and less "stiction".

As usual, YMMV

 
Here's the good news, and the reason I mentioned the above. Once you get past this impasse, you too can have just the superior two fork bushing designs. Just don't reinstall the middle bushings. They were a bad idea to begin with, cause the bushings to wear out faster and serve no particularly useful purpose anyway, IMO.
As usual YMMV
I think you are half right...you can leave out the middle bushing and effectively convert the GEN2 forks to GEN1 forks but that is not a good thing except for future maintenance. The middle bushing was Yamaha's attempt to increase fork rigidity and compete with inverted forks and it has been at least partially successful, the GEN2s have always had a better ride and handling than the GEN1s, but they are harder to work on when its time to replace bushings and seals. I think it is a good trade off and when I replace my 08's bushings a new middle bushing is going to be installed.
Yup...I'm under the impression that middle bushing is the reason the GenIIs don't need (benefit from) a fork brace. The last time my forks were done, it was my lower bushings that had to be replaced. The middle and uppers were fine.
First gens don't need a fork brace either. People that make (and sell you) fork braces think that every bike needs a fork brace. For what exactly? What are these magic dog bone brace supposed to be bracing against? The forks actually work considerably better without one in my experience.

Earlier this morning I had typed up a long description explaining how the 3rd bushing don't do anything and are actually detrimental to fluid fork action, complete with pencil drawings of how the forks flexed under load, but then decided it was too long winded, and people around here think I'm full of hot air already, so I deleted the whole mess.

I'll just summarize and say that, IMO the middle bushing doesn't do anything positive for fork flex, and it does create a lot of negative.

Ask the suspension experts at GP or Race Tech what they do when they rebuild an FJR fork. You'll find that they intentionally leave out the middle bushings so the forks will have better compliance and less "stiction".

As usual, YMMV
AND seriously Fred...I don't know jack **** about them. I was just saying what I have been told. That was why I said, "I'm under the impession." I'm too much of a chicken to take my forks apart for fear of running into issues like Jasen, and I don't know enough about them to "know" much.

You're prolly right about the sellers insisting we all need them, but it seems with this bike inparticular, GenIIs were less prone to needing them than GenIs. Of course, the "need" to have them could be just like the heat issues and all the other subjective issues we all have.

I'm actually disappointed you didn't submit the post with all the pictures attached. I love pictures.

 
Yea, where's the pictures?

I'd be tempted to not run the extra bushings, but I also don't want to jack with the design and don't know enough about these things. Plus, I'd hate to get them all assembled and find I need them because they are all wonky and then have to take them apart again. Ugh, what a nightmare.

 
Ask the suspension experts at GP or Race Tech what they do when they rebuild an FJR fork. You'll find that they intentionally leave out the middle bushings so the forks will have better compliance and less "stiction".
Just stirring the pot here, since it's freaking beautiful outside and I can't ride presently and stirring the pot is somewhat satisfying....
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Over here on GeorgiaRoller's thread -> https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/154749-traxxion-suspension-upgradewhat-i-learned/

His description of the lower bushing appears to be in the wrong place, if it's the same bushing we are discussing, but it appears that Traxxion sees it as necessary. Dunno...

 
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OK, well since there seems to be some genuine interest in this, I'll expose you all to more of my regular hot air (how do you think we got those balloons up in Vermont?)

First off, Georgia Roller owns a 1st gen (2005) so his is the same as mine.

Also, it isn't the lower bushing that you'd want to delete. You would leave out the middle one. The one on the bottom is absolutely required as it is the only one that is captive on the inner tube. and slides up and down in the outer tube. The upper bushing is pressed into the top of the outer tube, and the inner tube slides through it's inside surface, so as the suspension articulates the two bushings slide towards (and away from ) each other. The middle bushing on 2nd gens is redundant to the upper bushing. It too is pressed into the outer leg.

Here's a look at the 1st gen parts drawing:

FirstGenForkParts.jpg


The lower bushing is #3, 26 and you can see the lip on the bottom of the bottom of the inner fork tube that captivates that bushing after it is slipped on. The upper bushing is #5, 28 and that is just pressed into the top of the outer fork leg, then the washer, oil seal, circlip and dust seal go on top of that.

Now here is the 2nd gen parts diagram:

SecondGenForkParts.jpg


You'll notice that the upper and lower bushings are still there (3,29 and 5,30) but now there is an additional bushing #6,31, which is of a slightly smaller diameter than 5,30. It is slid down further into the outter fork leg and seat on a lip about half way down the outer leg's length. THat would be the one to skip.

Now here's the part I deleted earlier about why I would do that:

The inner fork tube is a long, relatively thin steel tube and (due to weight compromises) is actually somewhat flexible. Ideally it would not flex at all under varying suspension loads, and that is where the upside down fork designs are better, the majority of their length being the thicker, larger diameter, and therefore stiffer alloy outer fork tube in that design, they will flex less.

Regardless of whether you have two bushings or three in the FJR fork lower, the inner fork leg will flex over it's total length. It is supported by two triple clamps at the top and (at least) two contact points (bushings) at the bottom inside the lower. The lower (outer) fork leg does not flex. It is too thick and stiff. So what you end up with is a flexible inner pipe supported by 4 contact points. This is where I wish I had good computer graphics skills and could create some nice diagrams. Instead you get this

ForkFlex1.jpg


When there is a lateral load on the fork leg the inner fork legs will flex a little, not just in the part that you can see between the lower triple clamp and the top of lower fork leg, but all the way along its length, even in between the two triple clamps and between the two bushings (greatly exaggerated):

efc96da5-5a8d-4a2c-944f-2040700c6076.jpg


In the second gen design, they put the third, middle bushing in the inflexible lower fork leg in an attempt to restrain this inner leg flexing, but that will really only limit the flex that occurs between the upper and lower bushings, not the rest of the fork's length. And as it does so, it causes greatly increased friction in all three of the bushings as the then curved fork leg tries to slide through the fixed bushings. The primary goal of the fork is to absorb road irregularities. Added friction is contrary to that goal.

Furthermore, no inner fork leg tube is 100% straight to begin with, nor are the bushing seats milled with absolute precision. Which means that even when the forks are not being "sprung" they will not be absolutely straight and true, which means that the third bushing will always be increasing the friction (aka stiction). This is why the second gen wears through the Teflon bushing surface in 10k miles and the first gens can go 50k miles or more and still have some of that Teflon wear layer left.

By eliminating the middle bushing you completely eliminate that effect. Since the lower fork rides on only two contact points it can follow the bent inner tube when flexed with no additional binding and no added friction. Will the inner fork tube be allowed to flex more in the section inside of the lower fork leg? Yes, but who cares? The flexing that is important is over the entire length of the leg, especially what happens between the triple clamps and the fork lowers, as that is what affects the wheel's attitude the most. Restricting the flex inside the lower leg is of little importance, IMO.

In the area of "FWIW", when (at least some of) the aftermarket suspension shops rebuild 2nd gen FJR forks, they also leave out the middle bushings for better suspension performance.

In the end, we are all free to do whatever we want to to our own bikes, based on whatever we are convinced is best. IOW YMMV.
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But if I had a second gen FJR I'd ditch those third (middle) bushings the first time I had the forks apart

 
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Jason,

This may sound stupid but did you remove the inner rods prior to trying to seperate the for legs? Don't ask me how I know this!

Anyway the truth will come out. After reading FJReds thread several times and referencing the maintenence service manual neither of which tell you to take the dam rods out first.
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After twenty minutes of pounding the daylights out of one leg I stopped and started to to think harder. So I then made my extended socket wrench to remove the inner rods. Once I got them out the fork legs easily came apart.

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Your problem sounds like the same thing I ran into. I will have to get back with Fred's thread at a later point since I have to much to do tonight.

Good luck, I hope this solved your problem. Please don't get out the torch!!!!! Things will ge much worse.

Dave

 
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