Custom MAP from a DynoJet certified mechanic.

I was wondering if any have spent the $$ for a Custom powercommander map?

I see a few diferent maps floating around for the bike, in a few different configurations.

It'll cost me $250 and 2 hours for the guy to do it.

I think it is the right thing to do, and am curious to to a stare and compare against the maps floating on the internet.

Has anyone had this done? EDIT: I found this.

and it seems to answer my question.. it is a bit spendy though..the guy I talked to said it would be $250 and take a full tank of gas.

https://www.bikes-n-spikes.org/maint/dyno/dyno.html

Have 'em map for air/fuel ratio instead of max HP. This will create a map that is smoother across the entire power band.

Mine was done for max HP. After playing with it for a while, it went into storage. I've used the Wally Smoothness map ever since. Wally's map was done after extensive dyno time and with an eye toward a/f mix.

Mine w/D&D cans, OEM air filter, PC3=zero map, O² disconnected (red): 129.5 hp, 90.8 lb/ft

Tuned: My '03 (as above) after the dyno tune and PC3 mapping update: 131.24 hp, 91.36 lb/ft

Was that tuned for A/F or Max HP?

fhaze said:

Mine w/D&D cans, OEM air filter, PC3=zero map, O² disconnected (red): 129.5 hp, 90.8 lb/ftTuned: My '03 (as above) after the dyno tune and PC3 mapping update: 131.24 hp, 91.36 lb/ft

Was that tuned for A/F or Max HP?

Click to expand...

Now really.... After spending money for a dyno tune did you really expect them to show you a dyno curve that DID NOT show a HP improvement...??? Dyno's can be made to read anything the (clever) operator wants them to read.

Since crusing and light throttle operation are COMPLETELY different operating conditions and engine "map" can easily (and should be) set up for an optimum smoothness/efficiency at part throttle and best power at full throttle. These are not mutually exclusive at all.

Since tuning for "best power" at part throttle conditions is sort of an oxymoron I would hope that any part throttle work would shoot for a specific air/fuel ratio and ignore "power". Once you are throttling the engine at "part throttle" any measurement of power is purely acedemic. If you wanted more power you just open the throttle more. The whole idea of throttling is to limit power so setting the engine up to run at a specific (smooth and economic) air/fuel ratio is the only way to go.

Don't expect TOO much from a dyno tune. Given that the OEM spends hundreds of hours on a dyno developing the fuel map for production I doubt that two "techs" on a chassis inertia dyno making dyno pulls could duplicate their efforts in 2 hours. They can touch on some spots and mostly hit WOT points....for power.

Jestal..thanks for the input..

I guess (for me) what it boils down to is this.

Clearly I will feel the difference loading one of the many maps that can be found. The stock one from DynoJet. wallys, or a couple others.

Do think there will be a noticable (ie $250) difference from one of those vs the individualized one?

I don't think my butt dyno would be able to tell...the dyno sheet might though..but what really matters is feel.

I am looking for the best A/F across the whole range.

I suppose I could take it to a dyno day somewhere with different maps, and check the A/F, if it is flat I'm happy and saved some cash for more mods! heh

Load Wally's map, and see how you like it. If it doesn't suit you, and you don't want to try any of the others, then get it dynoed. I think even Bounce, who had a custom map done, runs Wally's map.

jestal said:

Don't expect TOO much from a dyno tune. Given that the OEM spends hundreds of hours on a dyno developing the fuel map for production I doubt that two "techs" on a chassis inertia dyno making dyno pulls could duplicate their efforts in 2 hours. They can touch on some spots and mostly hit WOT points....for power.

Click to expand...

Yikes! I can't believe I am going to do this, but.....................

Jestal, my technical guru - you are completely wrong on this one.



Whew! There. I said it. Glad I got that over with.

I was the development mule for the Holeshot map. Dynojet themselves developed that map at their headquarters in Las Vegas using my FJR. I can tell you this: The custom map made a very noticleable difference in the drivability of my FJR.

And I am not talking about WOT or max power. I am talking small throttle openings, and low rpm. I could care less about max power on a bike like the FJR. Like anybody's butt dyno is going to notice a 3hp increase anyways. But the butt dyno does notice beneficial increases in everyday drivability issues.

It's a long story, but I didn't get the PCIII for any perceived drivability issues with my FJR. There were other reasons altogether. Lots of owners complained of *surging*, but I didn't think my FJR surged. Until that is, I rode it with the newly installed PCIII. Great Scott! So this is what a smooth throttle is all about? I can guarantee you the PCIII will make a difference in the everyday drivability and smoothness of your FJR. For whatever reason, the stock FI map runs a bit lean. Emissions was always my assumption, though one of Jestal's previous posts throws some doubt on that. Regardless, the dynojet folks told me they raised the air-fuel ratio significantly, and that the stock mapping was quite lean. And I am here to tell you it made a difference.

Do some research on Dynojet's website, and even they say that the PCIII is not so much for max power gains at WOT, but for increasing drivability at partial throttle openings.

As for the original post, here is my take on all this. The Power Commander, while most definitely not necessary, is definitely beneficial. Depends on how much you want to pay for a small, but significant increase in drivability/performance. If running the PCIII, using one of the available maps will work just fine and offer tangible benefits. But it will not be ideal. Since every bike is different, a custom map for your own bike is the ideal or best way to go. But once again not necessary. So if you got the cash, and it will give you a warm fuzzy to get a custom map, go for it! Surely we have all wasted $250 on worse stuff than that. But at the same time, don't feel like you NEED to get a custom map.

Clear as mud?

Uh...why do you say I'm wrong....??

Having done electronic fuel injection calibrations for cars for many years (that drove good, passed the most stringent emissions standards, cold started at all ambients, etc...) I know a little bit about the systems and what it takes to cal them. Trust me, you are not going to get a total map done hitting all the various parameters in 2 hours on an inertia dyno.

Read my post again and explain to me exactly what you think is wrong. I'm simply curious.

I never said that the stock cal was "perfect" for driveability. It is obviously set up with emissions, driveability, engine durability, etc. in mind. It may not drive perfectly. Changing the part throttle air/fuel ratio may make it drive better. Doesn't mean it is making more power at part throttle necessarily. Especially if there were mods to the system the stock cal could be off in spots due to the mods. If an area of the stock map was a little lean, for instance, for emission purposes, then richening it slightly is going to "feel" good but you would never want to overly richen the part throttle operation to max torque for that particular throttle opening because the map would run rich all the time and fuel economy would suck.

I suspect the FJR is set a little on the lean side at idle and just off idle to help the oxidzing bed of the cat clean up HC and CO. This will feel a little stretchy and surgy on some engines. At any sort of load the system goes closed loop based on the O2 sensor input and the engine will run at 14.7:1 to make the cat work best for oxidizing HC and CO AND reducing NOx at the same time. It has to run at 14.7:1 to make a three way cat do this unless Yamaha has discovered something the rest of the world does not know about.

Many times less sopisticated fuel injection systems (like the FJR) will run a little lean on transients. That is, without an accelerator pump or accelerator pump "function" in the fuel injection pulse width computation logic a throttle opening maneuver will feel momentarily "saggy" or suggest a hesitation. Richening the map up in those areas will make it feel better for driveability but will then spike rich on throttle transisents hurting emissions. So the stock map is likely pretty accurate for steady state I'm guessing and the richening is helping the transient situation, not the steady state part throttle. Enabling the "accelerator pump" option on my PCIII helped the driveability without chaning the stock map at all.

So, sure, it is simple to add some fuel to the part throttle range and make the engine run more smoothly and possibly even get as good or even better fuel economy. But they are NOT tuning for best torque or power at part throttle points. That would make the whole map way too rich. Instead the cal is being pushed closer to 14.7:1 or 15:1 where driveability is very good and fuel economy is still OK.

Speed density systems like on the FJR can get really fouled up with anything that changes the tuning such as inlet mods or exhaust mods so a little detailed look at the map on a dyno is bound to help a little if mods have been made. It just isn't likely to be totally perfect as it is much easier to err on the rich side and have the good driveability.

Since the cal you mention was done in LV it cannot cover ALL the map anyway. Las Vegas is about 3000 feet in altitude I belive and the highest Barometer reading you are going to see there is 96 or 97 kPa if my memory is correct. Even at full throttle the most MAP the engine will see is 96 or 97 so there is no way they could run or replicate points on the fuel injection map above the mid 90's kPa. If you take your bike down to sea level and the baro is 103 (most liketly) then the engine MAP will be above what dynojet could run at LV. Hope they guessed good....LOL.

Really.....you're arguing with the wrong guy on this.....

BTW....I have a Holeshot header on my FJR also and have that same cal that was developed for your bike in my PCIII at the moment. It drives about like the cal I had developed from the seat of my pants and is actually pretty close in most areas numerically wise....even without a dyno..... The fact that mine drove the same with a slightly leaner cal also tells me that the holeshot cal developed there is a little on the rich side. See comments above.

I had a custom map with the Dale Walker Holeshot full system. Made a big difference from stock and other maps I loaded in the PCIII. Far and above worth the time and money. This 03 has never been so smooth or had so much power through all the ranges. Say what you will a generic will sufice but a custom expecially with mods will out perform stock any day. Especially with a Ca. emmissions bike. They are so choked down that they run lean, hot, and usually surge in the slower range.

I got a couple of pointed e-mails on this subject and it is apparent that I am being misunderstood by some.

I'm not in any way saying that the PCIII can not or will not improve driveability and possible even make a little more HP.

My point is that the fuel injection system on the FJR is not the most sophisticated system in the world, that the engine is not THAT sensitive to having the perfect A/F ratio for good driveablity and power, that the individual engines in bikes are all pretty much the same and that if there is a developed map for the PCIII that is for a combination that is remotely close to what you are running that the chance of an individual dyno tune is not likely to accomplish much more. That is what I meant by saying "don't expect miracles".

From what I understand there is a cal for the PCIII to use if you have the Holeshot pipe and cans. That was developed and is available. It is likely to work pretty darned good on other bikes with that pipe and cans. Is an individual dyno session likely to improve on that cal on another bike?? Probably not. There just isn't that much differenct between production engines. If you do decide to have a custom map done is the shop going to show you how much they changed and how much more power you are making now?? Sure. That is what you paid for and they are not going to let you down.....LOL. Dynos don't lie but the operators can make them lie.

I fully understand and subscribe to the fact that the stock map is not perfect for driveability given that the bike is cat equipped, has an O2 sensor and an AIR system. The other point that I tried to make, however, is that the stock cal can STILL be perfectly good for maximum power since the part of the map that is accessed for full power at WOT is completely different than the part of the map that is used for emission testing.

Making the engine smooth and to drive good is relatively easy as there is a fairly wide range of A/F ratios that the engine will operate well in. So...it doesn't have to be THAT close for making good power and having good driveability....and...it is better to err a little rich than a little lean.

At part throttle operation the only way to evaluate the cal is to look at the actual measured A/F ratio. Torque at part throttle points is pointless on an inertia type dyno (that Dynotech techs use). If you could hold a specific operating point with an absorbing dyno then you could hold that specific part throttle point and hook A/F ratios but this is virtually impossible to do with any repeatability at all on an inertia type dyno.

For those that think I do not believe in the PCIII or that I am bad mouthing it.....read the part above where I mentioned that I have a PCIII on my FJR and have tinkered extensively with it. Certainly it improves driveability. I also have no AIR system, no cats, the holeshot pipe, etc.... so the PCIII is mandatory for accounting for these modifications.

The PCIII just intercepts the basic injector pulse width generated by the engine controller (or ECM) and then modifies the pulse width based on the "delta" of difference desired at that particular speed/load point. It is not an engine controller per se, it just modifies the value already computed by the ECM. It works well for what it is designed for but it is not a very sophisticated engine controller.

fhaze said:

I was wondering if any have spent the $$ for a Custom powercommander map?

Click to expand...

For large number of folks, going through the expense/hassle of a custom map is a bit of overkill.

Before dropping large coins on that effort, you should at least try uploading the Wally Kilburg "Smoothness" Map for your PC-III, which is time tested and is completely free. You'll never believe the incredible throttle response that a Wally Kilburg "Smoothness" Map affords the FJR, serious biz!

Get it here for free: FJRTech: The Wally Kilburg "Smoothness" Custom Map

And BTW.... Wally Kilburg is himself a Certified DynoJet Technician, and knows his stuff inside out.

jestal said:

I got a couple of pointed e-mails on this subject and it is apparent that I am being misunderstood by some.
I'm not in any way saying that the PCIII can not or will not improve driveability and possible even make a little more HP.

My point is that the fuel injection system on the FJR is not the most sophisticated system in the world, that the engine is not THAT sensitive to having the perfect A/F ratio for good driveablity and power, that the individual engines in bikes are all pretty much the same and that if there is a developed map for the PCIII that is for a combination that is remotely close to what you are running that the chance of an individual dyno tune is not likely to accomplish much more. That is what I meant by saying "don't expect miracles".

From what I understand there is a cal for the PCIII to use if you have the Holeshot pipe and cans. That was developed and is available. It is likely to work pretty darned good on other bikes with that pipe and cans. Is an individual dyno session likely to improve on that cal on another bike?? Probably not. There just isn't that much differenct between production engines. If you do decide to have a custom map done is the shop going to show you how much they changed and how much more power you are making now?? Sure. That is what you paid for and they are not going to let you down.....LOL. Dynos don't lie but the operators can make them lie.

I fully understand and subscribe to the fact that the stock map is not perfect for driveability given that the bike is cat equipped, has an O2 sensor and an AIR system. The other point that I tried to make, however, is that the stock cal can STILL be perfectly good for maximum power since the part of the map that is accessed for full power at WOT is completely different than the part of the map that is used for emission testing.

Making the engine smooth and to drive good is relatively easy as there is a fairly wide range of A/F ratios that the engine will operate well in. So...it doesn't have to be THAT close for making good power and having good driveability....and...it is better to err a little rich than a little lean.

At part throttle operation the only way to evaluate the cal is to look at the actual measured A/F ratio. Torque at part throttle points is pointless on an inertia type dyno (that Dynotech techs use). If you could hold a specific operating point with an absorbing dyno then you could hold that specific part throttle point and hook A/F ratios but this is virtually impossible to do with any repeatability at all on an inertia type dyno.

For those that think I do not believe in the PCIII or that I am bad mouthing it.....read the part above where I mentioned that I have a PCIII on my FJR and have tinkered extensively with it. Certainly it improves driveability. I also have no AIR system, no cats, the holeshot pipe, etc.... so the PCIII is mandatory for accounting for these modifications.

The PCIII just intercepts the basic injector pulse width generated by the engine controller (or ECM) and then modifies the pulse width based on the "delta" of difference desired at that particular speed/load point. It is not an engine controller per se, it just modifies the value already computed by the ECM. It works well for what it is designed for but it is not a very sophisticated engine controller.

Click to expand...

Let's say I install the Muzzy exhaust system without using a PC3. It has provision for the O2 sensor. Will A/F ratio remain the same as for the stock system or wiill it run leaner than stock. I think Muzzy says you can run without a PC3 but a PC3 with appropriate download is optimal.

Warchild said:

Before dropping large coins on that effort, you should at least try uploading the Wally Kilburg "Smoothness" Map for your PC-III, which is time tested and is completely free. You'll never believe the incredible throttle response that a Wally Kilburg "Smoothness" Map affords the FJR, serious biz!

Click to expand...

+1

I've been running the Wally map almost since day one with the PCIII, and doubt a custom map could make it any/much better. (note that I don't have a full header, aftermarket cans, or any other mods which might necessitate a custom map).

Side Note: YAY! I got my post count back! Thanks Admins! :clapping:

Jestal, Can you provide us with the numbers you used for the accelerator pump function? % Sensitivity, % Fuel Increase and number of Engine Revolutions? Are you using different numbers than recommended by Dynojet for street riding? Thanks, Tracy...

As a dyno owner (a proper dyno at that with Eddy Current - it's a Dyno Dynamics from Austraila) I can tell you that only a little work can be done in two hours. With a Dynojet 250 model and the tuning link software it would cut the time down to do a full map greatly but two hours? We charge about $1-250 for what we call a race map - aka idle and full throttle for most sportbikes. BUT - if you start with a good base map and tune the A/F to whatever you are looking for it may not take as long as you think - on the road or on a dyno. I do agree it's hard, if not impossible, to do a better job than the factory on a mostly stock ride but there are obvious things one can do to make the bike "feel" better - and adding fuel in certain areas seems to me to be the most common thing we've done.

The "smoothness map" is pretty sweet on my bike but I've also taken some fuel out here and there for target's I looking for (economy mostly).

PS: I too would like to see your Accel Pump settings.

Warchild said:

fhaze said:

I was wondering if any have spent the $$ for a Custom powercommander map?

Click to expand...

For large number of folks, going through the expense/hassle of a custom map is a bit of overkill.

Before dropping large coins on that effort, you should at least try uploading the Wally Kilburg "Smoothness" Map for your PC-III, which is time tested and is completely free. You'll never believe the incredible throttle response that a Wally Kilburg "Smoothness" Map affords the FJR, serious biz!

Get it here for free: FJRTech: The Wally Kilburg "Smoothness" Custom Map

And BTW.... Wally Kilburg is himself a Certified DynoJet Technician, and knows his stuff inside out.

Click to expand...

Loaded the Wally map just before WFO. Incredibly smooth throttle response..........Happy camper now

Didn't even realize this old thread had popped up again....

I initially put the accelerator pump function in with the recommended 90% sensitivity, 15% fuel increase for 20 engine revolutions. It worked fine with the supplied PCIIIUSB cal for the FJR and also worked well with the map that was developed by Holeshot for their pipe. I have been reducing the accelerator pump shot contribution to see what the minimum is that will start to affect driveability. I have it down to 60% sensitivity, 10% fuel and 10 engine revolutions and it still drives fine. I haven't played with it in several weeks but that is where it is at on the bike now. The closer the basic fuel map is the less "accelerator pump" function you need anyway. I think I'll find that the FJR is pretty insensitive to the accelerator pump function with the cal that is in it now as the injector targeting is pretty good and very close to the inlet valves. The accelerator pump function is strictly a driveability issue and does not affect power at all so it can be calibrated empirically "by the seat of your pants" for best results.

Warchild said:

fhaze said:

I was wondering if any have spent the $$ for a Custom powercommander map?

Click to expand...

For large number of folks, going through the expense/hassle of a custom map is a bit of overkill.

Before dropping large coins on that effort, you should at least try uploading the Wally Kilburg "Smoothness" Map for your PC-III, which is time tested and is completely free. You'll never believe the incredible throttle response that a Wally Kilburg "Smoothness" Map affords the FJR, serious biz!

Get it here for free: FJRTech: The Wally Kilburg "Smoothness" Custom Map

And BTW.... Wally Kilburg is himself a Certified DynoJet Technician, and knows his stuff inside out.

Click to expand...

Is Wally's Map OK for addtional stuff like my holeshot headers and slip ons & K&N air filter ? Reason I ask is that I bought a PCIII, holeshot headers/slip ons & K&N air filter and it came with a custom map, but nobody will ride behind me because the bike is running so rich that it smells like a diesel truck. I loaded Wallys map and now it seems to run very close to "stock" except for the tweaks that Wally did for low RPM smoothness, which is excellent.

A question and a comment:

What does the PCIII with Wally's smoothness map do for MPG? And does it make a difference if you're at altitude (6,000') or at sea level? We spend the winters at 6000' and summers at sea level. Thanks.

Also I test rode an AE at Skagit Powersports last month and the owner, Bill, told me that if I bought a Power Commander from them they would set the FJR up on a dyno with a new software program that automatically did all the tweaks to calibrate the PC. I wasn't paying that much attention at the time to all the specifics though. Anybody else heard of something like this? I could call Bill for more details if anyone's interested.