Weird electrical problem

Facts:

• Last two 0'dark-thirty mornings, approx 55 degrees F, less than 1 mile on pavement after 3 mile dirt road.
• Engine dies when headlight switched from lo to hi, turn signals turned on, emergency flashers or brake light applied.
• Engine cranking speed is normal and immediately fires at restart.
• Failure could be repeated for approximately 3 minutes. Did not 'cycle' the ignition switch. During the 3 or so minutes, I toggled hi/lo beam, emergency flashers, engine cut out switches.
• Both days, it just all started working again and, in SkooterG fashion, I just kept riding, another 45 minutes to work. Systems worked normally.
• No problems experienced so far for the afternoon ride home (~75 - 90 F)
• Both failures occurred in early morning, approximately same location and temperature (~55 - 60 F)
• 2006 'A' model, ~65K, Solteks with AutoSwitch, Blue Seas distribution center powering Radar, GPS, heated vest.

I think that: (Need to verify)

• Cluster lights dimmed or went out. I recall yesterday seeing both turn signal indicator lights dimly lit, like a low battery or poor ground. Not sure about running lights.
• Alternator/regulator output appears normal - at max current draw (hi beams + Solteks, emergency flashers, rad fan running, brake light on) the headlights don't dim at idle or brighten with rpm.
• Battery 'stress' test (hi beam + running lights + engine fan + brake light) for one minute, bike cranks normally, fires immediately.
• I smelled something 'electrical'. I know the smell, but have a lousy sense of smell. No smoke I could see (dark).

Troubleshooting Plan

• Measure battery voltage bike dead, idling, 4K rpm using various loads.
• Check battery connections for cleanliness/tightness.
• Measure battery negative to frame ground.
• Check fuse connections.
• Wiggle wires at ignition switch, try to repeat failure.
• Check connection at ECU and alternator.
• Ask the gurus on FjrForum.com!

Any ideas? Anyone else experienced this?
TIA,

Signed, 'Scared of the dark dCarver'.

dcarver said:

Solteks with AutoSwitch

Click to expand...

I'd suspect that part of the setup and look real close at it.

Or it's because you're not a Harley Hater....

I would suspect ground issues, possibly at battery but especially at cable connection to engine block, lower right front. Not familiar enough with the relay stacking or troubleshooting in the system, not having had issues there (ie: if this quits, look at this etc).

Ditto. Dying when electrical is switched on is typical bad ground behavior. Ignition switch connection?

Bill

Forgot to add in original post that the engine could most of the time be kept running by winging up the RPM to 4k or so.

Dude. You been parking your FJR too close to your Harley?

Sounds like you're not making enough voltage to keep your battery up, and your bike running. Definatly check your grounds, and check your charging system output.

Could this be a Symptom of a Failing Stator? Since it will run over 4k rpm.

03HiYoSilver said:

Could this be a Symptom of a Failing Stator? Since it will run over 4k rpm.

Click to expand...

No, because if the charging system was bad, he'd have other indicators. And, the battery, if up to snuff (and his tests indicate it is) can alone can run the motor no prob. The over 4 thou puts his alternator at full whip though, and the extra available amperage could overcome corroded connections. For a while.

Thanks everyone, for the help. Seriously. My local dealer went bankrupt, the other dealer is a stealer. Would really like to solve this on my own, with your assistance.

More info:

(all voltages taken at battery with calibrated Fluke 45)

Battery test, 'unloaded' (low beams on, gps powered, no extra load)

Ignition on = 12.8

At idle = 13.6

4k rpm = 13.9

Loaded charging test (Solteks, hi-beams, 4-way flashers on)

Idle= 12.8

4k rpm = 13.2

Extra loaded test (Solteks, hi-beams, 4-way flashers + fan)

Idle - 12.4

4k rpm - 12.8

Battery stress test (engine dead, Solteks + hi beams on, 4-way flashers on + 30 seconds of fan)

Start = 12.0 v

1 minute later 11.8 volts

Here is what I checked so far:

1. Battery connections - No corrosion visible, cleaned anyway. After cleaning, noticeably 'shinier'. I run a Blue Seas fuse block, so both terminals have extra connections feeding the BS block.

2. Pulled every fuse, including 10A ignition. All appeared to be properly seated and no corrosion. Also pulled separate 30 A fuse located near ignition coils.

3. Checked 'visible' wiring from battery to Blue Seas. This is not fused at the battery, probably should be. Did not observer any wiring degradation. Wiring enclosed in Napa 'Asphalt' loom.

4. Checked wiring going to ignition switch. Nothing obviously wrong.

5. Checked all wiring behind panels (what the hell are they called, AB, CD?) on the RHS as sitting on the bike. No obvious signs of distress e.g. no melted insulation, obvious loose wires, etc.

6. Checked wiring at Regulator/Rectifier. When I replaced the rear shock I wrecked the RHS connector and now it is ty-wrapped in place. Jiggled the connector and repeated the load test described above, no change in results.

Did not check:

1. Battery ground wire at frame or measure battery negative resistance to ground.

So, for mañana, I will be carrying a BFF (bug f$#c#ng flashlight) and see what happens.

Note to self: if it fails, check to see if:

1. All lights are dead (instruments, running, etc) or just ignition.

2. Cycle the key and test.

3. Wiggle wires under ignition switch.

4. Move bars stop to stop.

5. Call AAA to get a ride home.

6. Send bike to Radman for a quality fix.

Ideas? Next steps?

Thank You Everyone..

Don

Don,

Do you have a new or good spare battery to exchange the current one. Possible to have a bad/weak cell in the current one?

Don,

Take it one test at a time- one day at a time. You will Sherlock the problem. Good luck.

dcarver said:

Did not check:1. Battery ground wire at frame or measure battery negative resistance to ground.

Click to expand...

And you're waiting for??????????? That connection is probably the most overlooked cause of odd little problems I know of. Has all the potential for causing problems like the ones you're having-

Fairly hidden, rarely even looked at.

Exposed (though it is behind plastic) to road spray, heat, road splooge etc.

Dissimilar metals (galvanic corrosion anyone?)

Heat worsens the problem with poor conductivity, plus the constant expansion/contraction loosens the connection over time. As the connection loosens, moisture can invade, powdering the aluminum (corrosion), making for a looser connection, and on and on. Even should you find it to be relatively clean and tight, you've eliminated this as a possible.

PS-battery looks good.

radman said:

dcarver said:

Did not check:1. Battery ground wire at frame or measure battery negative resistance to ground.

Click to expand...

And you're waiting for??????????? That connection is probably the most overlooked cause of odd little problems I know of. Has all the potential for causing problems like the ones you're having-

Fairly hidden, rarely even looked at.

Exposed (though it is behind plastic) to road spray, heat, road splooge etc.

Dissimilar metals (galvanic corrosion anyone?)

Heat worsens the problem with poor conductivity, plus the constant expansion/contraction loosens the connection over time. As the connection loosens, moisture can invade, powdering the aluminum (corrosion), making for a looser connection, and on and on. Even should you find it to be relatively clean and tight, you've eliminated this as a possible.

PS-battery looks good.

Click to expand...

Thanks Rad, I'll measure from battery terminal to good frame ground tonight. I would expect to see, just guessing here, about .2 ohms or less?

The harder step will be to figure out how to get at the battery ground on the frame. I've not yet played the plastic removal game.

Oh - All was OK this morning, no symptoms, but I don't feel like I've 'fixed' anything yet, no smoking gun.

Thanks again for words of encouragement and help .

dcarver, the battery ground connection really needs to have a wrench put to it. If the connection is loose causing intermittent contact you may have gotten lucky and ohmed the connection while it was 'good'. Also, in motorcycle & car ground circuits .2 ohms can be significant. When making a very low ohm reading, set your DMM to the lowest scale and touch the two meter leads together. The value you read is the resistance of the meter leads. Note this number. Now make your ohm measurement then subtract the meter lead values. In your case this should equal just about zero ohms of resistance. But, if the cable is loose you may have just caught it at a good moment.

I was able to get to the block ground on my Gen I by using a couple of extensions and a swivel joint on my socket wrench. It's worth a look before pulling plastic.

ionbeam said:

dcarver, the battery ground connection really needs to have a wrench put to it. If the connection is loose causing intermittent contact you may have gotten lucky and ohmed the connection while it was 'good'. Also, in motorcycle & car ground circuits .2 ohms can be significant. When making a very low ohm reading, set your DMM to the lowest scale and touch the two meter leads together. The value you read is the resistance of the meter leads. Note this number. Now make your ohm measurement then subtract the meter lead values. In your case this should equal just about zero ohms of resistance. But, if the cable is loose you may have just caught it at a good moment.
I was able to get to the block ground on my Gen I by using a couple of extensions and a swivel joint on my socket wrench. It's worth a look before pulling plastic.

Click to expand...

Thanks IonBeam, I haven't ohmed the battery cable yet and will zero out the meter leads first.

Even if it measures good, I'll clean the connection anyway.

What you expect the battery cable resistance value range to be? .02 to .08?

dcarver said:

ionbeam said:

dcarver, the battery ground connection really needs to have a wrench put to it. If the connection is loose causing intermittent contact you may have gotten lucky and ohmed the connection while it was 'good'. Also, in motorcycle & car ground circuits .2 ohms can be significant. When making a very low ohm reading, set your DMM to the lowest scale and touch the two meter leads together. The value you read is the resistance of the meter leads. Note this number. Now make your ohm measurement then subtract the meter lead values. In your case this should equal just about zero ohms of resistance. But, if the cable is loose you may have just caught it at a good moment.
I was able to get to the block ground on my Gen I by using a couple of extensions and a swivel joint on my socket wrench. It's worth a look before pulling plastic.

Click to expand...

Thanks IonBeam, I haven't ohmed the battery cable yet and will zero out the meter leads first.

Even if it measures good, I'll clean the connection anyway.

What you expect the battery cable resistance value range to be? .02 to .08?

Click to expand...

Don, remember your little "Bambi" incident? Consider what everything's been through.

Like IonBeam says, check that ground.

Plastic removal shouldn't slow you down. Just do it!

kaitsdad said:

dcarver said:

ionbeam said:

dcarver, the battery ground connection really needs to have a wrench put to it. If the connection is loose causing intermittent contact you may have gotten lucky and ohmed the connection while it was 'good'. Also, in motorcycle & car ground circuits .2 ohms can be significant. When making a very low ohm reading, set your DMM to the lowest scale and touch the two meter leads together. The value you read is the resistance of the meter leads. Note this number. Now make your ohm measurement then subtract the meter lead values. In your case this should equal just about zero ohms of resistance. But, if the cable is loose you may have just caught it at a good moment.
I was able to get to the block ground on my Gen I by using a couple of extensions and a swivel joint on my socket wrench. It's worth a look before pulling plastic.

Click to expand...

Thanks IonBeam, I haven't ohmed the battery cable yet and will zero out the meter leads first.

Even if it measures good, I'll clean the connection anyway.

What you expect the battery cable resistance value range to be? .02 to .08?

Click to expand...

Don, remember your little "Bambi" incident? Consider what everything's been through.

Like IonBeam says, check that ground.

Click to expand...

KaitsDad, which relay should I be looking at? Per PonyFool's encouragement, I removed some plastic this morning..