Need Second Opinion

Recently my FJR was making a little extra noise on the right hand side so I'm thinking about the timing chain adjuster. Take it the dealer and they do some adjustments (for free) and the noise goes away. But they suggest that I have the timing chain, adjuster and timing chain guides replaced in about 10,000 miles. To replace the timing chain guides, I was told, you have to split the engine case. Obviously this is not inexpensive. I was quoted about $900 for the work.

This dealer has been very highly rated by users in this forum and I have used them for a few years. Generally I've been happy with their work. But I cannot remember anyone mentioning on this forum a need to change their timing chain guides.

What do you guys think?

2004 ABS

88,000 miles

maintained per factory manual since new

Maddog said:

you have to split the engine case.

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Huh, I must have one of those French motors I'm always hearing about, my timing chain is on the end of the motor. :blink: So what kind of chisel do you use to split an FJR motor?

v65 said:

Maddog said:

you have to split the engine case.

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Huh, I must have one of those French motors I'm always hearing about, my timing chain is on the end of the motor. :blink: So what kind of chisel do you use to split an FJR motor?

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I'm just repeating what I heard. My assumption about the term "split the engine", is that they mean the head has to come off of the block. For a $900 estimate I think that would be consistent with the labor required to pull the head off of the block.

Maddog said:

v65 said:

Maddog said:

you have to split the engine case.

Click to expand...

Huh, I must have one of those French motors I'm always hearing about, my timing chain is on the end of the motor. :blink: So what kind of chisel do you use to split an FJR motor?

Click to expand...

I'm just repeating what I heard. My assumption about the term "split the engine", is that they mean the head has to come off of the block. For a $900 estimate I think that would be consistent with the labor required to pull the head off of the block.

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Here is a link to a vertically split engine case. Notice the cam chain in the second pic, I haven't worked on one of these but I would guess you have to split the cases on that motor to change the chain.

The chain in the FJR motor is on the right side and pretty accessible. If the tech didn't move the cams in the process they could do the job in an hour, maybe two.

Been sloppy on the oil changes? Unless you have unusual wear (can be seen on the guides with vlv cover off) then I would say go with just a tensioner and see how it goes. There are at least several motors out there well in excess of 150k that are, IIRC, still running original chains and guides, but not necessarily original tensioners. As for the charge, they will get what they get. Don't know the flat rate on the job, but it's not a easy task getting at the rails, the hardest part I believe.

radman said:

Been sloppy on the oil changes? Unless you have unusual wear (can be seen on the guides with vlv cover off) then I would say go with just a tensioner and see how it goes. There are at least several motors out there well in excess of 150k that are, IIRC, still running original chains and guides, but not necessarily original tensioners. As for the charge, they will get what they get. Don't know the flat rate on the job, but it's not a easy task getting at the rails, the hardest part I believe.

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Radman - What you say is consistent with my recollection of reported issues on this forum. Tensioners can be a problem and maybe chain replacement would be prudent approaching this milage. But the guides are the expensive part of what has been proposed (and in my mind questionable as to need), so I am leaning toward your suggestion of changing out the tensioner and seeing how it goes.

By the way, oil changes were performed every 4000 miles and since 12,000 miles I have been using Shell Rotella synthetic exclusively.

I changed the tensioner on my 03 at 75k and the guides looked just fine. I don't understand how they could charge a whole lot more than the price of a valve check plus a little for the guides.

Looking at the exploded diagram, it's not a "split motor" issue and it's not as bad as some, but it's still WAY more than 2 hours.

Take your $900, back the parts price out of it, then divide the remainder by their hourly shop rate. Figure out how long they're estimating the job will take. It may be completely reasonable.

Here are the basic steps for the job off the top of my head:

Tank off

Tupperware off

Valve cover off

Cams out.

Crank end covers off including gasket clean-up.

Drop old camchain down tunnel

Replace guides

Replace cam chain tensioner

Drop new camchain down tunnel and retain top end for relo.

Replace cams

Ensure proper cam timing

Test

Replace crank end covers and gaskets.

Might as well check valve clearances while you're there.

Replace valve cover

Replace tank

Replace tupperware.

And you were SO close to being able to redo the valves and seats on your (then) 98k mile motor. Did they recommend the extra step(s)?

2WheelTiger said:

but it's still WAY more than 2 hours.

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I'm using the radman time estimator, take how long it would take me to do the job and divide by 8. Not sure about the WAY more, maybe way more.

radman said:

There are at least several motors out there well in excess of 150k that are, IIRC, still running original chains and guides, but not necessarily original tensioners.

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I am aware of none. There were only two 150k+ bikes out there (that I am personally aware of) before 03silverbullet' crash. Now there is just one - mine. 03silverbullet had a new (used) engine installed shortly after 100k after his original grenaded due to a lean condition by a improperly adjusted PCIII. My cam chain, tensioner, and guides were replaced at 110k. Not only are there no other 150k+ bikes out there that I am aware, but of the only three FJRs I know of that are between 100-150k, one has had the cam chain and tensioner replaced, and one just the tensioner. The third, I think had the tensioner replaced at 7X,XXX when it was having 'the tick' repaired. You'll have to ask big chief stinky pats (Or Mr. Lisa Stevens) about that. I am sure there are a few more 100k+ FJRs out there, but none that I am personally aware of.

As to the original post, I don't think what you are hearing is all that out of line. It's just the wording. No, you don't have to split the case to replace the 'guides'. HOWEVER, I believe the job to replace the cam chain, tensioner, and guides is pretty close to $1000 to complete when adding up parts and labor.

In my case the Y.E.S. payed for everything, but I think it would have cost around $1000. I had the noise, and by manually manipulating the CCT (Cam Chain Tensioner) it would go away. So, you would think that I either had a bad CCT or a stretched chain.

Well, CCTs are relatively, a known weak point on the FJR. They have been replaced on many an FJR that I am personally aware of. Some as early as 30,XXX miles, some as late as 110,xxx miles. The part is about $80 from a *discount* vendor, and is relatively a pain in the *** to change out due to the difficulty getting to a mounting bolt that is right next to the frame. (The way I understand it) It's about 3 hours of labor just to have a shop do the CCT IIRC. So if they are charging the $100/hr as most shops do around here, that's a $400+ job just for the CCT. This is just based on assumptions by me, so if somebody else knows different please speak up.

In my case, the shop just ASSUMED that due to the high miles (110k), that my noise was from a stretched cam chain. Based on their assumptions, they were going to replace the cam chain and guides. Why the guides, I have no idea as they didn't actually look at the old ones or anything. After talking with the tech one day and realizing he wasn't going to replace the CCT, I did my best to urge him to also replace that part telling him about all the FJRs out there that had already had them replaced. Fortunately, he listened to my advice and also ordered the CCT. (Imagine that!)

So all 3 items were replaced and my FJR was good again. They never did 'measure' the old chain to see if it was stretched. I saw the old guides and they 'looked' fine to my untrained eyes. The tech said the new ones were perhaps a bit softer that my old ones. They are a hard plastic, but I think (and he did too) that the old one's were fine.

Now, since all that was paid for by Y.E.S. I didn't care what they did as long as it was fixed. But I REALLY would have like to know if it was just a CCT problem (which is my suspicion), or if the cam chain was stretched also.

If I had been paying for it, and what I would do if I were you, is just have the CCT replaced and see if that solves your problem. I bet it will.

However, the one caveat is if the 'additional' cost to replace the chain is only a bit more because everything is opened up. The cam chain is a CHEAP part. Only like $19 - can you believe that? IIRC, each of the plastic guides was about $50, and of course the CCT around $100. You should be able to get current prices on those pieces online. Be aware, the cam chain was on back order when I did mine and I had to wait 3 weeks to get one from Japan.

You also have to ask yourself is it worth the risk, and the cost, to open the FJR up a second time if replacing the CCT doesn't fix it?

So how much extra labor is involved to remove the chain and either measure it, or replace it?

Like I said, $900 to replace all three sounds reasonable to me, and that will most definitely fix your problem, however if it was my $$$ I would just do the CCT first and see how it works.

Lots of examples of worn out CCTs being replaced out there, but I have not heard of one *known* streteched chain. (That was actually measured.)

Good luck and keep us informed. BTW, which dealer is it?

The dealer is Yamaha of Cucamonga in SoCal and I'm not suggesting they are trying to pull a fast one. I just hadn't heard any stories about chain guides being replaced so I wanted a sanity check from this group.

Skooter - it is interesting that you were able to manually manipulate the CCT and the noise would go away. It seems that is what the dealer did to mine. But they basically said it was a temporary fix and the additional work would be needed sometime in the next 10,000 miles.

After rereading the CCT noise/issues posts, and particularly after rereading Ionbeam's travails, I'm leaning toward having the dealer do the work. Of course my YES expired last October.

One thing I can't reconcile in my mind is, how does a new CCT alone "fix" the problem as many have reported? What is happening with the old CCT? Is it "untensioning" (if that is a word) the chain and allowing slack? Ionbeam reported that his CCT was fully extended. Do new CCTs extend further? If not, how does a new CCT prevent the chain from slipping, stronger springs maybe? What am I missing?

Thanks

Mad,

Here are some pictures for this process at this link:

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?s...12748&st=20

Maddog said:

One thing I can't reconcile in my mind is, how does a new CCT alone "fix" the problem as many have reported? What is happening with the old CCT? Is it "untensioning" (if that is a word) the chain and allowing slack? Ionbeam reported that his CCT was fully extended. Do new CCTs extend further? If not, how does a new CCT prevent the chain from slipping, stronger springs maybe? What am I missing?

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It's an "Automatic" cam chain tensioner -- and it's the "automatic" function that fails. In the 'old days', owners/mechanics had to periodically adjust the cam chain slack (take excess slack out) with a theaded rod (or similar) adjuster -- a process that was often ignored. There have been many "automatic" patents/attempts by manufacturers and a considerable number of disappointments.

Maddog said:

The dealer is Yamaha of Cucamonga in SoCal and I'm not suggesting they are trying to pull a fast one. I just hadn't heard any stories about chain guides being replaced so I wanted a sanity check from this group.

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From the shop's perspective (maybe?): Let's give this guy the best job we can. Since the labor isn't much greater -- once we're in there; let's replace all the items that may be worn due to length of time in service. The customer will then be able to expect that much service again.

It's pretty easy to see how they'd like to insure the job with new parts.

GregM, This is just a very small footnote: Doug Banfelder now has over 150K miles on his 2003 FJR here in Phoenix, AZ.

However, as you've stated on "The Dirty Old Whore;" Herr Banfelder has replaced cam chain, tensioner and the guides!

As mentioned, the engine does not have to be split to change the cam chain slippers or the CCT. If you are going to change the cam chain the FSM says to remove the stator cover from the other side of the engine and use a rotor holding tool to lock the crank shaft so that the cam chain driving gear can be removed. If you put the engine in gear, brace the rear tire and then take up mechanical slack you can use an impact wrench to take out the bolt, avoiding the need to remove the stator cover.

When changing the CCT, the trick tool to use is a 1/4" drive wobble socket.

The cam chain slippers seem to be real tough and most likely have nothing to do with a slack chain. If you go after the slippers, don't miss the stealth slipper that is inside the valve cover. This hidden slipper tensions the cam chain between the two cam gears and keeps the chain from popping out of the gears.

If you are hearing noises or think the CCT needs attention it is because the cam chain is wearing, resulting in elongation. The CCT is a 'make-up' device intended to re-tension the chain but it is not intended to prevent the cam chain from ever needing to be replaced. The cam chain will start to make a rattling noise as it wears. As the chain wears it will begin to affect mechanical cam timing in a small way resulting is a small amount of power loss. When the tensioner no longer takes up all the slack that it should, the chain gets very noisy. In my case it appeared that the slack was causing my idle rpms to vary in time with the noise.

The following has been excerpted from various posts that I wrote over the last year:

The cam chain is one of the least expensive parts and one of the hardest to change. Technically, the chain does not stretch, it wears. The chain can be measured and should be changed if the length is too long. [but since it is out, and it will already be at least partly worn, and it's in your hand and inexpensive, why not change it.]

The cam chain slippers appear to be pretty robust based on my huge sample of one set The slipper that works with the cam chain tensioner was the only one that showed any sign of wear and that was very slight. Unless you get the light just right you can't tell the new one from the old one. IMO, you could skip this as long as the backing pad where the CCT plunger contacts the slipper is in good shape and the pivots don't feel worn.

The cam chain tensioner is a touchy feely part without absolute specs. If you have it out and in hand you might as well put in a new unit. [This little guy is a MOTHER to get out, change it while you can so you don't have to do this again for a very long time.] When comparing a new tensioner to the old tensioner you should be feeling for spring tension differences with plunger extended between 50% and 75% of the total plunger length and it should have smooth operation of the spiral extender. Would you pay $75 to avoid even a small chance of a $4,750 engine repair bill?

If the cam chain is really worn you should have a look at the cam gears for wear. If the cam gears need to be changed the chain must be replaced at the same time no matter what.

A gear on the end of the crank shaft is what actually drives the cam chain. I've proven that this gear is a tough part. Should the crank gear get bent or worn things get ugly fast, the gear is pressed on the crank and can not be individually replaced, the whole crank has to be replaced.

The total cam chain tensioner travel is ~1.25 inches. The tensioner shaft has shiny wear marks around the 5/8” extension point to the final wear marks around the 7/8” extension point. When the cam chain was new, the tensioner shaft was extended 5/8”. At present, when the tensioner shaft is released to the 5/8 length I would guess the spring tension is roughly 200 grams. When the tensioner is extended to the 7/8” point I would guess the spring tension is not more than 20 grams. The more worn the chain became, the less able the tensioner was to take up the slack. The important area to compare spring tension is from just less than 1/2 way extended to ~3/4 way extended. As a cam chain wears you would like the tensioner to have good pressure on the cam chain slipper to reduce slack.

ahamlin01 sent me his old CCT and his CCT had the same extension and wear that mine had --but-- his worn CCT had more tension than mine did along the whole plunger travel.

I was surprised to find that the spring in the CCT is not in compression, it is wound up like a clock when the CCT is assembled. The following really needs pixs to save a lot of words (still no pixs).

The CCT rectangular rod goes through an end cap that is retained by a circlip. The end cap has 4 tabs, with one tab wider than the others to align the rod within the CCT body. When putting the CCT together the rod has to be fully extended making it too long to let the end cap tabs reach down into the slots in the CCT body. As you turn the tensioner screw to retract the rod it winds up the spring. As the rod shortens it lets the end cap tabs engage the slots with enough room for the circlip to slip into the ring groove. Depending on how I hold the rod and how deeply the spiral shaft is initially engaged into the center of the rod, the spring tension can go from almost nothing to very strong after the circlip is installed. The key point here is that this assembly operation is variable and has a direct relationship to the final spring force of the CCT. During assembly, one turn + or - of the tensioner screw makes a significant difference in the final spring force. Two full turns is like night and day in spring force. Because the end cap can only fit one way it forces the tensioner screw to complete a full 360 degree rotation between end cap tab engagements. How far the spiral shaft was initially engaged onto the rod will determine the actual number of turns of the screw before the circlip can be installed which determines final spring force.



The Engineering part of me wants to believe that there is a minimum and maximum spring force specification that falls within one full turn of the retraction screw. The Manufacturing Engineer in me wants to believe they have a fixture which will always results in a consistent number of turns before the circlip goes on. The Quality part of me wants to believe that all the CCTs are tested to verify conformance. The realist in me acknowledges that most likely there is no assembly jig and the CCTs are only audited, not 100% tested :glare:

The cam chain slipper that the CCT presses against is pinned at the bottom end (near the crank gear) and is tensioned by the CCT's rod, contacting the slipper about 4/5ths of the way to the top resulting in good mechanical advantage. If the CCT were too forceful the chain slippers would have excessive wear which apparently no one has seen. If the CCT is not forceful enough... I don't want to go there