04 cranks - no start - code 19 but switch is ok

rbar · May 12, 2009

when I turned the key yesterday:

yellow engine light came on - didn't go out after 1.4 sec

light started blinking while cranking

cranked fine but no fire

posts a code 19 on the display

Manual says 19 is the sidestand switch. But the switch checks out fine - even took it apart to make sure it was clean and shiny in there. The switch isn't the problem.

Next in the manual's diagnosis is a "starting cutout relay" - but I haven't found it yet. Apparently this is a feature of the earlier FJR's? The wiring diagram has it mounted bewteen the sidestand switch and the ECU.

I've searched the forums - haven't found anything on this "starting cutout relay"

Geezer · May 12, 2009

You want to try the WOT technique.

Charge up your battery fully. Turn on the ignition, hold the throttle wide open, and spin the starter.

You will probably smell some unburned fuel coming out the exhaust at first. If it doesn't start then, while re-charging the battery, pull the plugs and let the cylinders air out. Then try it again.

rbar · May 12, 2009

Geezer said:
You want to try the WOT technique.
Charge up your battery fully. Turn on the ignition, hold the throttle wide open, and spin the starter.

You will probably smell some unburned fuel coming out the exhaust at first. If it doesn't start then, while re-charging the battery, pull the plugs and let the cylinders air out. Then try it again.

Thanks, I'll try that tonight. But why would it post a 19 code?? The manual is pretty clear that if it posts a code, the yellow light blinks and it will be unable to start. (just like it's doing)

The other clue I just read here is that the key switch may not be sending enough current to activate the sidestand circuit.

Geezer · May 12, 2009

rbar said:
Thanks, I'll try that tonight. But why would it post a 19 code?? The manual is pretty clear that if it posts a code, the yellow light blinks and it will be unable to start. (just like it's doing)
The other clue I just read here is that the key switch may not be sending enough current to activate the sidestand circuit.

Well, it could be a bad side stand switch, or a corroded ground. Did you clear the code?

All I know is that it is very common for the FJR to flood after either sitting for a couple of weeks, or being shut down before it gets fully warmed up. Mine did it after I got home from a log trip and then let it sit a couple weeks.

ionbeam · May 12, 2009

rbar said:
...The manual is pretty clear that if it posts a code, the yellow light blinks and it will be unable to start...

A side stand error should cause the engine not to crank. With your FJR on the center stand, fully deploy the side stand, put your FJR in 1st gear. Try to crank the engine; if it won't spin the side stand switch and relay are working correctly.

Use the diAG panel and write down all the current engine codes in memory then clear the memory. If you have a hard failure it will show up in the code history again. Are you getting any codes in the area where the clock is in the meter assembly?

A flashing yellow engine light whole cranking indicates that there is a 'stop injection' command taking place. After verifying the side stand switch is working and then clearing the codes the engine should start normally. If not, check codes again and see what may have popped up.

rbar · May 12, 2009

ionbeam said:
A side stand error should cause the engine not to crank. With your FJR on the center stand, fully deploy the side stand, put your FJR in 1st gear. Try to crank the engine; if it won't spin the side stand switch and relay are working correctly.....A flashing yellow engine light indicates that there is a 'stop injection' command taking place.

Thanks for the replies

A 'stop injection' command would explain why there's no fuel smell. Probably not flooded then.

I need to find the fabled "starting cutout relay" discussed in the manual. Maybe the tipover switch is goofed up. The manual shows the cutout relay in the center area under the seat above the ECU - but on my bike it's not there. I'll take more apart tonight. The diagram says the relay has 7 wires going to it.

About your first comment the bike doesn't crank in gear. It will crank in neutral with stand up or down.

ionbeam · May 12, 2009

rbar said:
About your first comment the bike doesn't crank in gear. It will crank in neutral with stand up or down.

That is the correct operation, no crank in gear, crank when not in gear. The only way this can happen is if the starter cut-off relay is working correctly. I believe the relay is under the seat, next to the air pressure sensor.

Write down then delete all codes and see if it will start once there are no stored failure codes. If something is still wrong it will store a new code and then you will know the code is for real and related to your no start.

rbar · May 13, 2009

ionbeam said:
rbar said:

About your first comment the bike doesn't crank in gear. It will crank in neutral with stand up or down.

Click to expand...

That is the correct operation, no crank in gear, crank when not in gear. The only way this can happen is if the starter cut-off relay is working correctly. I believe the relay is under the seat, next to the air pressure sensor.

I agree the evidence says the cutoff relay is doing its job. Its function (page 8-15) is to allow the engine to crank if the trans is in neutral, OR it can be in gear if the clutch lever is pulled in and the side stand is up. I don't believe it controls fuel at all.

There's an air temperature sender under the forward edge of the seat, but no starter cutoff relay. I took out the tray and unplugged the ECU, and another large "black box" under the ECU (ABS controller?) - but it's not there either. I plugged the ECU back in and turned the key just for laughs - the engine fired instantly and ran smoothly - no stumbles, codes, no yellow light - just hummed beautifully as normal.

I shut it off and tried again - it cranked but would not fire again. The code 19 came back - it might have been from before (haven't yet cleared the codes as you suggested - does unplugging the ECU reset the codes? I'll try a 62 reset tonight.

I'm turning my attention back toward the main key switch - other forum members have posted a lot about insufficient current at the smaller terminals. Maybe the code 19 is being caused by poor electrical supply. Also, all this cranking has shown the battery has less reserve than it should. I keep a trickle charger on it but it's the original and should be replaced.

Patriot · May 13, 2009

rbar said:
ionbeam said:

rbar said:

About your first comment the bike doesn't crank in gear. It will crank in neutral with stand up or down.

Click to expand...

That is the correct operation, no crank in gear, crank when not in gear. The only way this can happen is if the starter cut-off relay is working correctly. I believe the relay is under the seat, next to the air pressure sensor.

Click to expand...

I agree the evidence says the cutoff relay is doing its job. Its function (page 8-15) is to allow the engine to crank if the trans is in neutral, OR it can be in gear if the clutch lever is pulled in and the side stand is up. I don't believe it controls fuel at all.

There's an air temperature sender under the forward edge of the seat, but no starter cutoff relay. I took out the tray and unplugged the ECU, and another "black box" under the ECU - but it's not there either. I plugged the ECU back in and turned the key just for laughs - the engine fired instantly and ran smoothly - no stumbles, codes, no yellow light - just hummed beautifully as normal.

I shut it off and tried again - it cranked but would not fire again. The code 19 came back - it might have been from before (haven't yet cleared the codes as you suggested - does unplugging the ECU reset the codes? I'll try a 62 reset tonight.

I'm turning my attention back toward the main key switch - other forum members have posted a lot about insufficient current at the smaller terminals. Maybe the code 19 is being caused by poor electrical supply. Also, all this cranking has shown the battery has less reserve than it should. I keep a trickle charger on it but it's the original and should be replaced.

wow, good diagnostic skills shown there...congrats and keep at it...and keep us advised

Cheers,

Mike in Nawlins'

Zorlac · May 13, 2009

Have you tried just cycling the ignition switch on/off a few times?

That worked for me when I was throwing a 19 while cranking away.

I've sprayed Pro Gold in the ignition switch weep hole and its been OK for awhile.

Fred W · May 13, 2009

Yep, it's probably the second (smaller wires) set of contacts in the ignition switch.

rbar · May 13, 2009

Zorlac said:
Have you tried just cycling the ignition switch on/off a few times?That worked for me when I was throwing a 19 while cranking away.

I've sprayed Pro Gold in the ignition switch weep hole and its been OK for awhile.

Zorlac - I am glad you have checked in on this - it was your posts about the switch that I had noticed.

I did try working the main switch several times - but it doesn't seem to make any difference.

This weep hole - where is it & how to access? I'm ok with taking off the triple clamp for surgery on the switch - unless the consensus is the old switch isn't worth fixing. My bike is an early 04

Hey Fred - could I short the smaller wires (red connector?) together to test whether this is indeed my no-start problem?

rbar · May 13, 2009

Called the service tech at the local dealer - no idea where an FJR's cutoff relay is - but probably not far from the starter relay - their parts fiche refers to various relays under the seat but just calls them "relay" with no description of what they control.

Googled "starter cut-off relay" and got hits mostly about Yamaha bikes. An article with pics of a 650 shows it buried right under the tank, near the airbox. One guy whacked it with screwdriver and it worked again. This is getting down to my level of technology!

Fred W · May 13, 2009

rbar said:
Hey Fred - could I short the smaller wires (red connector?) together to test whether this is indeed my no-start problem?

Yes, that should work.

Zorlac · May 13, 2009

"I did try working the main switch several times - but it doesn't seem to make any difference."

If that's the case, you may be up against something else, try shorting that small two wire connector on the end that goes into the bike, not back to the ignition switch.

The weep hole is visible and accessible with the steering turned left from the right side of the bike with the red spray tube inserted into the Pro Gold nozzle. Just search ignition switch failures for pictures of where the weep hole is.

rbar · May 14, 2009

Zorlac said:
.....you may be up against something else.......

I think it could be just be a failing battery. At rest it only makes 11.3v - which drops more while cranking. With a battery charger (or a fresh battery with 12.8v) connected, it starts right up with no codes.

It's the codes that are a head-scratcher. And the fact that even at low voltage the battery cranks it over quite well. On one attempt last night it posted codes 12, 19, and 30 (crank, side stand, and tipped over). Even I could tell it wasn't tipped over.

So I've ordered a Westco. And reading about Brodie's relay (I've been away from the forum too long) I'm convinced it would be good preventative maintenance so I ordered one of those too. (I might be customer 49 for this production run) Thanks to all for the help - I'd be nowhere without it. Take care, ****

Zorlac · May 14, 2009

Here is an excerpt of a PM from Ionbeam in response to a question I posed to him on the minimum battery voltage (measured at the battery terminals while the engine is cranking with a DVM) for the engine to start, enjoy.

I threw out 9.5 volts just as a number, it doesn't imply that the FJR will never run at 9.4 volts or always start at 9.6 volts. Even though the FJR ECU monitors battery voltage as part of the FI calculation the ECU doesn't seem to have a minimum voltage at which it stops commanding fuel and spark.

The reason I chose that minimum number is related to the coils. I'm sure that the FJR coils will always fire hot enough for ignition at 9.5 volts; as voltage drops below this point the coil output and certainty of firing is reduced. On average, I believe that the FJR's ignition coils will fail to fire or be too weak for solid ignition someplace around 8.4-8.9 volts. If some frustrated FJR owner is fruitlessly grinding away with the starter button and they measure below 9.5 volts I wanted them to know that something is wrong and it most likely isn't gonna run. Unstated but relevant, when battery voltage is below 9.5 volts the starter will no longer be turning the engine over at a sufficient rate for starting. Ideally, the engine should be spun at 40 rpm or more for adequate starting. When the battery voltage is ground down and the engine is spinning 25 rpm or less in conjunction with low coil voltage there isn't going to be any gratification and no joy.

rbar · May 16, 2009

I put in the new battery - and it stared right up - just once On the next try it would not start - and posted code 19 again.

Following Zorlac's idea, I sprayed Brake-Clean up through the drain hole in the bottom of the key switch, cycling the switch a few times. The bike started again and continues to start ok (6 -8 times)

So maybe it's cured - but I don't understand the repeating code 19. I think this may not be over.

The cut-off relay needs more investigation - I notice the bike will not crank in gear with stand up and clutch pulled to the bar (which it's supposed to do). The saga continues........

Fred W · May 17, 2009

rbar said:
I put in the new battery - and it stared right up - just once On the next try it would not start - and posted code 19 again.
Following Zorlac's idea, I sprayed Brake-Clean up through the drain hole in the bottom of the key switch, cycling the switch a few times. The bike started again and continues to start ok (6 -8 times)

So maybe it's cured - but I don't understand the repeating code 19. I think this may not be over.

The cut-off relay needs more investigation - I notice the bike will not crank in gear with stand up and clutch pulled to the bar (which it's supposed to do). The saga continues........

The reason for the code 19 is that the second set of contacts (smaller wires) in the ignition switch are in the path between the Starting Circuit Cut-Off Relay and the ECU. The normal state for that wire is either grounded (safe to start) or floating (start inhibited). When it is inhibited but the starter is run it throws a 19 code.

04 cranks - no start - code 19 but switch is ok

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