Gen II Headlight failure

ionbeam · Sep 28, 2011

dcarver said:
I think I found the heated grip connector - a white 2-wire connector - does it look like this? If so, no VDC either side, engine running.

...When all is said and done, I am going to document with greater clarity all Gen2 relay locations and identifying markings for future reference..

There are two 2 pin blue connectors in the Gen II, I'm 99% sure that the connector in the picture is the side stand connector. The heated grip blue connector will have Red/Black and Green/Blue wires. I only suggested this connector because it may be easier to get to than the headlight relay. If the headlight relay is indeed on the battery box then you may be able to just go directly to the relay.

You would think that we should be able to identify all the relays and switches from the service manual wouldn't ya <_<

It seems that the Gen II has had more relay failures than the <insert angel harps> Gen I <harps off> have had.

The tip-over switch is under the seat on my Gen I, right next to the seat latch bar. Looking down on the switch I can read the 'this side up' arrow.

HaulinAshe · Sep 28, 2011

Don,

I sent you some help via email.

You will NOT find the Headlight On/Off relay on a Gen-II without removing the nose plastic. I typically remove the entire nose, then remove the plastic, then re-hang the nose frame and mechanics to re-connect all the electrical and start troubleshooting.

wfooshee · Sep 28, 2011

Well, Alan and I are telling him the relay is behind the meter panel, but the one Highlander is not pointing to in his last picture is the one we want. But the nose still has to come off to find it. Can't get in front of the battery with the plastic on, and that upper fairing panel can't be removed without removing the nose; its fastners are unreachable unless the whole nose is off. So, did they move it between 2006 and 2008? I dunno.

The yellow wire with the white stripe should ground with the engine running, and the green wire blue stripe should go to 12 volts when that happens. That relay should click on when the engine starts, which of course will be hard to hear, but you will be able to hear it click off if you kill the running motor with the kill switch, then turn the key off.

HaulinAshe · Sep 28, 2011

wfooshee said:
Well, Alan and I are telling him the relay is behind the meter panel, but the one Highlander is not pointing to in his last picture is the one we want. But the nose still has to come off to find it. Can't get in front of the battery with the plastic on, and that upper fairing panel can't be removed without removing the nose; its fastners are unreachable unless the whole nose is off. So, did they move it between 2006 and 2008? I dunno.

You guys had/have it right. The nose has to come off to gain access to the Headlight On/Off relay. It's in the same location from 2006-up.

ionbeam · Sep 28, 2011

From diAG, actuator code #52 turns the headlight relay ON/OFF five times (2 on, 3 off) in five seconds. The Check Engine light should come on and if the entire headlight electrical system is good the headlights should come on too. Go to code #52 and turn the red RUN/STOP switch OFF the back ON again to trigger the relay test. Listen for the clicking to locate the relay.

dcarver · Sep 28, 2011

ionbeam said:
From diAG, actuator code #52 turns the headlight relay ON/OFF five times (2 on, 3 off) in five seconds. The Check Engine light should come on and if the entire headlight electrical system is good the headlights should come on too. Go to code #52 and turn the red RUN/STOP switch OFF the back ON again to trigger the relay test. Listen for the clicking to locate the relay.

GREAT suggestion. More to follow.

dcarver · Sep 28, 2011

Thanks to all the GREAT peeps who posted up wonderful troubleshooting suggestions.

Following IonBeam's suggestion, located clicking sound to just under RHS inner cowling sub fairing.

Really?

Could this be true?

Removed the plastic inner piece and Oh My!

Two relays, dangling from secured ty-raps, available for me to look at!

Looking at this, I realized that my bud Ivan, at Hidden Power Cycle Clinic, was totally responsible for 'relocating' these relays to an 'accessible position' after my deer strike.

That's what I like from a *practical* tech.. moving stuff from the assembly line to where it can be accessed later without 5 hours of labor charge! Woot-Woot!

Looking at the two relays, wondering which one was what -

decided to jump the power leads of the first one - and the fan came on.

OK then, incorrect labeling by me on the relay.

Removed both relays, they are the same. (Fan and Headlight)

Swapped Fan for Headlight, fired KrZy8 up and Woo-Hoo! Lights.

Switched relays to confirm diagnosis -

yes, true.

Tapped 'bad' headlight relay with appropriate density tool, and, *voila* lights.

OK then, problem solved.

So happy I don't have to remove all the plastic to access 'factory installed relay'.

..and yes, I will be researching alternative relay mfr's as the one from MammaYamma do not appear to be all that 'stout'..

Ideas?

Comments?

Thanks again to the forum and peeps for helping out -

Sincerely,

dcarver n' KrZy8

Auburn · Sep 28, 2011

dcarver said:
Thanks to all the GREAT peeps who posted up wonderful troubleshooting suggestions.

Following IonBeams suggestion, located clicking sound to just under RHS inner cowling sub fairing.

Realy?

Could this be true?

Removed the plastic inner piece and Oh My!

Two relays, dangling from secured ty-raps, available for me to look at!

Looking at this, I realized that my bud Ivan, at Hidden Power Cycle Clinic, was totally responsible for 'relocating' these relays to an 'accessible position' after my deer strike.

That's what I like from a *practical* tech.. moving stuff from the assembly line to where it can be accessed later without 5 hours of labor charge! Woot-Woot!

Just got to remember where they were relocated to

That is a great tip from ionbeam :clapping:

dcarver · Sep 28, 2011

Yes! IonBeam's suggestion rawked!

I have so many other thing going on right now that consume all my bankroll and time -

to have this be an 'Easy Fix' based upon work done by somebody else is a wonderful prize. :yahoo:

So often we crap on techs at 'StealerShips' and this guy did everything right -

the dealership closed

he opened up a private shop

and now, several years later, I realize his wisdom/thoughtfullness

....priceless, really

painman · Sep 29, 2011

Don, first I had to post up and say glad you got the electrical gremlin fixed and thanks for the time spent to let us in on the issue. (Electrical has always been the most difficult area for me). And second, just another example of how this forum really does rock! B) And Ionbeam has been an integral part of this for years now in the area of knowledge. Kudo's to ya Ion and the others who also helped! An interesting and helpful thread Don. PM. <>< :assassin:

HaulinAshe · Sep 29, 2011

Based on the pictures I stand corrected, you CAN access the headlight On/Off relay without removing the nose. But I don't think I want to do it your way Don!

Definitely a good tip from Ion on using the diag to "click" the OEM relay.

wfooshee · Sep 29, 2011

From the looks of those connectors, those things are being subjected to a little more weather than they're used to seeing, and that may be the actual issue. I don't think there's really any problem with the stoutness of the relay, but if it gets a bit of corrosion inside, bets are off.

I'd forgotten you had the deer strike. That might have raised some rewiring questions. But without that DIAG code to click the relay, I wonder how long it would have taken to find the relocated part??!!??!

Wait . . . if the relay wasn't clicking, how did the diag code click the realy????

mdisher · Sep 29, 2011

I *thought* one of headlight relays on a Gen 2 were behind the upper right black panel, you know the one you have to pop off to remove the mirror?

The one I tapped into for my aux light high beam switch was on the left side but there were relays on the right too.

I could be wrong.

-MD

ionbeam · Sep 29, 2011

wfooshee said:
...Wait . . . if the relay wasn't clicking, how did the diag code click the realy????

I was surprised to read that the relay(1) clicked! I'm not sure that Don has arrived at root cause yet. As Walter points out, the socket and wiring may still be suspect. Note that the big relays which are directly actuated by the ECU have a diode across the coil and any replacement relay should have a snubbing diode either internally like the OEM or have one added externally. There is a pretty good chance that the headlight relay is in fact good and corrosion on the relay's contact power pin has been broken. IMO, the relay should be mounted so that it is solid and unable to bounce or move. IMO, the rubber strap thingie that Yamaha uses is a good thing to have because it dampens high frequency vibrations.

(1) The relay is made up of a coil and a set of contacts. The coil is wound to form an electromagnet. The contacts of automotive relays are sometimes 'reed' types with long flexible shafts tipped with high current 'buttons' and sometimes a mechanical pivot or slide with the contacts held apart by a spring. Usually the loud clickers are the pivot and slide type. When 12 volts and ground are connected to the coil it produces a magnetic field which pulls the reeds or pulls the pivot/slide closed. The high current contacts slamming together cause the CLICK. To produce a CLICK the relay coil and contact mechanics have to be working. The only way a CLICKING relay can be bad is if the high current button(s) were burned from arcing. Any other failure would mute or prevent the CLICK.

RossKean · Sep 29, 2011

ionbeam said:
(1) The relay is made up of a coil and a set of contacts. The coil is wound to form an electromagnet. The contacts of automotive relays are sometimes 'reed' types with long flexible shafts tipped with high current 'buttons' and sometimes a mechanical pivot or slide with the contacts held apart by a spring. Usually the loud clickers are the pivot and slide type. When 12 volts and ground are connected to the coil it produces a magnetic field which pulls the reeds or pulls the pivot/slide closed. The high current contacts slamming together cause the CLICK. To produce a CLICK the relay coil and contact mechanics have to be working. The only way a CLICKING relay can be bad is if the high current button(s) were burned from arcing. Any other failure would mute or prevent the CLICK.

I always figured the the "click" was the ferrous metal plate that connects to the contact slamming into the pole on the electromagnet rather then the electrical contacts themselves slamming together. Maybe its different for high current relays?

ionbeam · Sep 29, 2011

RossKean said:
I always figured the the "click" was the ferrous metal plate that connects to the contact slamming into the pole on the electromagnet rather then the electrical contacts themselves slamming together. Maybe its different for high current relays?

Most small current, non-automotive relays are constructed differently and the click they make is the coil and ferrous part coming together. In automotive grade relays the contacts have to be strongly forced together in a rigid fashion so the contacts don't bounce of vibrate open under normal driving conditions. To achieve this the switched part of the relay is heavy and strong which produces its own CLICK to go along with the coil and ferrous part that also clicks.

dcarver · Sep 29, 2011

ionbeam said:
wfooshee said:

...Wait . . . if the relay wasn't clicking, how did the diag code click the realy????

Click to expand...

I was surprised to read that the relay(1) clicked! I'm not sure that Don has arrived at root cause yet.

wfooshee, why wouldn't the relay click when triggered by diagnostic test 52?

ionbeam, same question?

It's not a loud click by any means, but I could easily hear the actuation and feel the vibration too. FWIW, it's the same failure symptoms I had earlier with the hi/lo relay, and that relay is protected from elements much better than the power relay. Bench testing the hi/lo relay, with a rear brake light bulb as load, when actuated, the relay would pass just enough current to dimly light the filament. Tapping the relay resulted in full current and brightness.

Both male and female pins looked clean, dry, corrosion free on the power relay. Wiggle-Waggling connector wires had no effect. Tapping the relay resulted in actuation. Replacing the suspect relay with the fan relay resulted in consistent headlight operation, multiple tests. I'm pretty sure it's a failed power relay and the issue is bad contacts (corroded/burned/whatever) - want me to break out the Dremel and dissect it?

dcarver · Sep 29, 2011

Forgot to add - I wonder what transmits more vibration to the relay

1. when connected via rubber boot to hard part (frame, headlight stay, etc)

2. or when dangling from wiring loom?

In my non-techie CrestonCowoy mode, I'd almost guess less vibration hanging from the nice vibration damping effect of a wire absorption device?

ionbeam · Sep 29, 2011

dcarver said:
wfooshee, why wouldn't the relay click when triggered by diagnostic test 52?

ionbeam, same question?

...when actuated, the relay would pass just enough current to dimly light the filament. Tapping the relay resulted in full current and brightness...Replacing the suspect relay with the fan relay resulted in consistent headlight operation, multiple tests. I'm pretty sure it's a failed power relay and the issue is bad contact...want me to break out the Dremel and dissect it?

Usually a failed relay will have an open coil or failed contact mechanism; without these parts working the relay will not make a sound.

I believe that you have indeed found the root cause and it is the relay. The dim filament and swapping with a known good part sews it up. In my discussion of relays I mentioned that about the only way a relay can make a solid click and yet not work is if there is a contact failure. Your description of symptoms fits this scenario exactly. So would a corroded power pin in the connector, but you say the all look good.

Yes, by all means do an autopsy! Don't spare the gore. You have taken some awesome macro pictures, time for more here.

dcarver said:
Forgot to add - I wonder what transmits more vibration to the relay

1. when connected via rubber boot to hard part (frame, headlight stay, etc)

2. or when dangling from wiring loom?

In my non-techie CrestonCowoy mode, I'd almost guess less vibration hanging from the nice vibration damping effect of a wire absorption device?

Take a thin strip of metal and flex it back and forth repeatedly. Notice the 'work' heating? Keep going... eventually you will have two pieces of metal in your hands. Hold the harness wires still and start flexing the relay back and forth. As the wires flex remember what happened to the metal strip. The most susceptible place will actually be where the wire and connector pin are joined.

dcarver · Sep 29, 2011

A possible replacement relay for the OEM Matsushita ACM33211 M05?

Panasonic relay from Mouser

Data Sheet

Cheap enough at $3.53...

Gen II Headlight failure

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