How to check your CCT

RadioHowie's thread and Ionbeam's previous similar experience got me all paranoid, since I also have an '03 with some miles on it, about 59,000 at the moment. I figured I'd better look into it, but all the talk about how hard it is to get it outa there had me worried. In RadioHowie's thread Radman suggested just giving it a turn and see how it feels, so that's what I did. No need to pull the part for this easy check.

Easy job, I was 40 minutes from lifting the tank to closing the tool box.

Lift the tank, by now everybody knows you don't have to remove it, you can just prop it up. Of course, if you've got other work going on and have the tank off for something else, this can be part of that job without almost no additional effort.

If you don't know where the cam chain tensioner (hereinafter the CCT) is, have a look. Wires under it are probably not on your bike, they're from the battery to an underseat fuse box (click pics for larger version):



Highlighted here. light part is the CCT:



There's a 10mm bolt on the end that need to come off. You reach through the frame to get it. The hole through the frame has a rubbery cover on it. It helps tremendously to have a magnet stick to hold the socket inside the frame while you bring the extension in through the hole. My socket wouldn't go through the hole. Actual fingers have no place in here.



Once the bolt is out, you need a longish and VERY narrow straight-slot screwdriver. A 1/8" blade is too big. If you can turn the screw counterclockwise without resistance, then your CCT is shot. If you don't feel spring pressure when turning clockwise, like winding a clock, then your CCT is shot.



If, however, yours behaves as mine, no room to turn CCW, and turns freely CW against obvious spring pressure, returning by itself to the CCW direction, you can join me in having every confidence that your CCT is in good working order and is not at the limit of its travel.

You can bet that this is gonna be a regular check, though, like every oil change or thereabouts!

To get the bolt back in, I put a little RTV in the socket to act as a sticky hold. You do not want to be dropping stuff in there!

Excellent post wfooshee! Thanks for educating us.

Good contribution!

Does anybody know offhand what the FSM* says about servicing the CCT?

*Factory Service Manual, not Flying Spaghetti Monster

Service manual says to check it by pressing the plunger while turning the screw fully clockwise. Remove the screwdriver and slowly release the plunger, looking for smooth motion as the plunger extends. Replace if any roughness is detected.

No service interval (or check interval) specified. The CCT is checked as part of camshaft service in the manual.

wfooshee said:

... RadioHowie's thread Radman suggested just giving it a turn and see how it feels, so that's what I did...If, however, yours behaves as mine, no room to turn CCW, and turns freely CW against obvious spring pressure, returning by itself to the CCW direction, you can join me in having every confidence that your CCT is in good working order and is not at the limit of its travel...

Service manual says to check it by pressing the plunger while turning the screw fully clockwise. Remove the screwdriver and slowly release the plunger, looking for smooth motion as the plunger extends. Replace if any roughness is detected.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

FWIW & IMO, if the cam chain is making noise that the automatic cam chain tensioner has allowed, the tensioner is not doing its automatic job. Again, IMO, the reason there is noise is because the spring doesn't exert enough force or the plunger is not extending smoothly. I've autopsied several CCTs and haven't found roughness, but in every case I've found flaccid springs. When you manually adjust the CCT as wfooshee has done (a valid method) you are acknowledging that the CCT is no longer up to the task and you now need to keep up manual adjustments as cam chain noise reoccurs.

The cam chain tensioner starts life with the plunger ~1/2 way extended and has a normal life extension of ~0.350"; never extending much farther than the 1/2 way point and goes to the grave with <30% of total length ever used.

The FSM specification 'smooth motion' and 'replace if rough' doesn't tell the whole story. There should be some spec about minimum plunger force because plunger force is what keeps the chain tensioned. Since the spring is more of a wind-up clock spring instead of a straight linear spring like a fork spring, the force you feel while turning the screwdriver CW is not representative of the force placed on the plunger.

Your YMMV.

wfooshee said:

If you can turn the screw counterclockwise without resistance, then your CCT is shot. If you don't feel spring pressure when turning clockwise, like winding a clock, then your CCT is shot.
If, however, yours behaves as mine, no room to turn CCW, and turns freely CW against obvious spring pressure, returning by itself to the CCW direction, you can join me in having every confidence that your CCT is in good working order and is not at the limit of its travel.

You can bet that this is gonna be a regular check, though, like every oil change or thereabouts!

To get the bolt back in, I put a little RTV in the socket to act as a sticky hold. You do not want to be dropping stuff in there!

Click to expand...

The only thing I'd add, except to ask Walt why his CCT is hairy, is I would NOT recommend ANY Clockwise "testing" of the CCT with the motor running.

Maybe this is a "given", but I'm just sayin', you do NOT want to remove tension on the cam chain EVER with the motor ticking over.

THERE BE DRAGONS!

So -- what's the expected life of a CCT ? ... Or are there too many variables and this is a dumb question?

rogdeb said:

So -- what's the expected life of a CCT ?

Click to expand...

Until it dies....

rogdeb said:

So -- what's the expected life of a CCT ?

Click to expand...

Hard to say. There are MANY high-milers on the forum with zero complaints about cam chain noise, yet I've seen at least a couple of posts from users with noisy chains less than 15k miles. I think I recall one around 5K?

Or are there too many variables

Click to expand...

Don't think there are "too many", mostly just one variable -- the amount of tension "wound" into the spring at assembly. The CCT spring's tension can be "set" at assembly (or dis/re-assembly if you're so inclined) so that may be an issue. And perhaps SOME springs aren't being tempered correctly at manufacture and don't maintain their ability to maintain tension. The amount of tension the spring imparts on the plunger isn't affected by oiling, so poor or low lubrications wouldn't be an issue. And to get the CCT hot enough to de-temper the spring would probably fry something else in the motor LONG before the spring gave up.

and this is a dumb question?

Click to expand...

Absolutely not a dumb question. My personal hope for other Feejer owners is that they never have to go through what I am. But remember, MY CCT spring actually broke into 2 pieces, but I WAS already experiencing chain noise around 3k miles before catastrophe set in.

The only SURE way to know when to change it is when the cam chain starts making noise. You've reached the end of the CCT spring's lifespan at that point.

Toecutter's response, while a little simplistic (and humorous, BTW) is right on the money. Unless you have a catastrophic failure like I did, a noisy chain only means it's time to change NOW, not a year from now.

RadioHowie said:

The only thing I'd add, except to ask Walt why his CCT is hairy, is I would NOT recommend ANY Clockwise "testing" of the CCT with the motor running.

Click to expand...

I noticed the fuzzy hairy corroded surface, and I blame the original owner. Nothing on my bike looks like these bikes I see that are polished, and whose parts can be used as surgical implements.

And none of this tweaking with the screwdriver was done with the engine running! Perhaps I should have said so, but like you, I figured it as a given. Like I said, when I first tried to turn it counterclockwise, it was already firmly against the guide. Turning clockwise and letting it (gently) return is simply to confirm the smoothness of the action. Also, I did not tempt fate by winding it all the way clockwise - just enough to feel that it had spring pressure, a quarter or half turn or so.

Ionbeam's point about the drop in spring pressure is valid, too. The more it unwinds, the weaker it will get.

And to address Ionbeam's point on noise, I was not getting chain noise, I was just getting paranoid about the CCT and wanted to check it. It was tight, and I have no worry about it at this time. It will be checked regularly, though.

EDIT: Actually, looking at it again, that "fuzz" is residue from my Smitty undertank heat blanket.

OK, but I hear "noise" is the real, only symptom to draw attention to the tensioner system and then replace it.

I have 85k today on mine and have, what I think, heard cam chain noise first thing in the morning at idle on warm up sitting in my driveway. No other time.

This morning at 62 degrees at 5:30am, did my routine previously explained, bike sat in the driveway idling while I geared up, and no noise. Now, I don't know if I can relate the cam chain noise to always be just after the fan comes on at 4 bars sitting in the driveway at idle waiting for me to gear up and get on and drive away.

This morning, I don't remember if I heard the fan come on like usual, which then soon follows what I think is the cam chain noise. That noise is real subtle, but is really there on those "few" occassions.

Now, I don't seem to have any local shops who will testify they have worked on Feejers, or certainly done any "real" engine work, as opposed to just routine maintenance. I'm deciding on when and where to have the valves checked, and the tensioner and cam chain replaced.

I'm considering doing it myself, but am not confident enough to do it without effective supervision and experience when doing it, i.e., going to someone else's garage shop (listening Walter ???) and doing the work. But, I realize, I well might need shims to properly set the valves, and have no idea how to prepare for that possibility and still do all the work in one day. I can purchase the chain, tensioner, gaskets, shop material, etc, but what do you do about shims and having proper ones on hand or ready to purchase when the need is determined ???

scratchin' my head,

Mike in Nawlins'

Patriot said:

OK, but I hear "noise" is the real, only symptom to draw attention to the tensioner system and then replace it.
I have 85k today on mine and have, what I think, heard cam chain noise first thing in the morning at idle on warm up sitting in my driveway. No other time.

This morning at 62 degrees at 5:30am, did my routine previously explained, bike sat in the driveway idling while I geared up, and no noise. Now, I don't know if I can relate the cam chain noise to always be just after the fan comes on at 4 bars sitting in the driveway at idle waiting for me to gear up and get on and drive away.

This morning, I don't remember if I heard the fan come on like usual, which then soon follows what I think is the cam chain noise. That noise is real subtle, but is really there on those "few" occassions.

Now, I don't seem to have any local shops who will testify they have worked on Feejers, or certainly done any "real" engine work, as opposed to just routine maintenance. I'm deciding on when and where to have the valves checked, and the tensioner and cam chain replaced.

I'm considering doing it myself, but am not confident enough to do it without effective supervision and experience when doing it, i.e., going to someone else's garage shop (listening Walter ???) and doing the work. But, I realize, I well might need shims to properly set the valves, and have no idea how to prepare for that possibility and still do all the work in one day. I can purchase the chain, tensioner, gaskets, shop material, etc, but what do you do about shims and having proper ones on hand or ready to purchase when the need is determined ???

scratchin' my head,

Mike in Nawlins'

Click to expand...

Come on down to Winter Haven. Shop's already strewn with tools and parts, so your Feej would fit RIGHT in.

The CCT removal is really not that difficult, given the right tools...."magnet-on-a-stick" and a 10 inch 1/4 drive wobble extension.

And for shims? Hell, Missus Howie can cook up some of her not-so-famous biscuits and we can carve 'em to size.

Toecutter said:

rogdeb said:

So -- what's the expected life of a CCT ?

Click to expand...

Until it dies....

Click to expand...

:huh: ............. :lol:

RadioHowie said:

rogdeb said:

So -- what's the expected life of a CCT ?

Click to expand...

Hard to say. There are MANY high-milers on the forum with zero complaints about cam chain noise, yet I've seen at least a couple of posts from users with noisy chains less than 15k miles. I think I recall one around 5K?

Or are there too many variables

Click to expand...

Don't think there are "too many", mostly just one variable -- the amount of tension "wound" into the spring at assembly. The CCT spring's tension can be "set" at assembly (or dis/re-assembly if you're so inclined) so that may be an issue. And perhaps SOME springs aren't being tempered correctly at manufacture and don't maintain their ability to maintain tension. The amount of tension the spring imparts on the plunger isn't affected by oiling, so poor or low lubrications wouldn't be an issue. And to get the CCT hot enough to de-temper the spring would probably fry something else in the motor LONG before the spring gave up.

and this is a dumb question?

Click to expand...

Absolutely not a dumb question. My personal hope for other Feejer owners is that they never have to go through what I am. But remember, MY CCT spring actually broke into 2 pieces, but I WAS already experiencing chain noise around 3k miles before catastrophe set in.

The only SURE way to know when to change it is when the cam chain starts making noise. You've reached the end of the CCT spring's lifespan at that point.

Toecutter's response, while a little simplistic (and humorous, BTW) is right on the money. Unless you have a catastrophic failure like I did, a noisy chain only means it's time to change NOW, not a year from now.

Click to expand...

Thanks Howie .. good explanation-- another thing to listen for

rogdeb said:

So -- what's the expected life of a CCT ?

Click to expand...

When my '05 started rattling at around 50K miles, Zac at Roseville Yamaha said he had 3 or 4 other local Gen Is come in at roughly the same mileage (47 - 55K, IIRC). His test on a warm engine was to turn the idle down to ~900-950 RPM and listen for the rattle. Reading about RadioHowie's and Ionbeam's catastrophic failures means I'm not waiting for the odometer to hit 102K to replace my next one - first signs of rattling and it's off for a check by a more learned ear than mine...

RadioHowie said:

And for shims? Hell, Missus Howie can cook up some of her not-so-famous biscuits and we can carve 'em to size.

Click to expand...

First you try to bribe the collective for onsite assistance by posting her picture.

Now you trash-talk her cooking.

I'm keeping a list, and one day I will make the call. . . . . . . B)

Patriot said:

(listening Walter ???)

Click to expand...

I've never been under the valve cover of one of these, although I've been into the cams of my '95 DOHC V6 Probe GT when its timing belt jumpled a tooth on one bank. It ran OK for a few years after that. And I do have a set of feeler gauges around here somewhere. . . . . No shims lying around, and no wobble extension. I saw a short one in Sears the other day and almost bought it, but it was of a length that I think would put its top end inside the frame. Not quite right.

Bought the new number version from McCoy-no physical difference that I could see. Spring tension the same as my old one-same number of turns to unwind against the guide, about 2 1/4. As an addendum to wfooshee's post, if you can turn the tensioner counterclockwise once you've removed the cap bolt, it is no longer applying proper tension on it's own. This could be the fault of the tensioner, a stretched chain, or a worn guide-depends how many turns from fully retracted it turns out.

radman said:

Bought the new number version from McCoy-no physical difference that I could see. Spring tension the same as my old one-same number of turns to unwind against the guide, about 2 1/4. As an addendum to wfooshee's post, if you can turn the tensioner counterclockwise once you've removed the cap bolt, it is no longer applying proper tension on it's own. This could be the fault of the tensioner, a stretched chain, or a worn guide-depends how many turns from fully retracted it turns out.

Click to expand...

Rad, and anyone else who has a CCT out to look at:



Note the difference in size of the slots and tabs that position the the spring tensioner.

On my (broken) unit, the slots and tabs at 12 & 6 in the photo are smaller than the slots & tabs at 3 & 9. Ionbeam noted in his original CCT thread that his tensioner "ring" could only be turned 360 degrees, while mine can be rotated 180 degrees. I'beam's is an '04 like mine, yet my Feej has a different CCT design than his. Part change mid-run?

I can't help but believe if the slot/tab relationship was purposely changed, it was so the parts assembler could "adjust" the amount of tension on the spring. Half a turn of the spring would not overstress the spring by any means, but it COULD increase the tension of the spring enough to force full extension.

Rad, compare your new CCT to the old one specifically for the sizes of the slots and tabs. Are they the same? And if it (they) are like Alan's original, then I'd assume there was only one "small" slot/tab, which would force a full 360 degree turn to retension.