Power Commander III

fjr07 · May 20, 2007

While the seat was gone to Russel, I did some farkeling. Blue Sea fuse block, GPS, Power Commander III, Give 52 top case.

Had the standard map installed.

The seat came in on the 18th of may with all of the heating elements for both seats.

Got the seat installed and took off for a ride Friday evening to try the seat out and the performance of the bike with the Power Commander.

The bike ran great and the seat was just great and the heating elements on both seats works fine.

Well, someone put Walley's smoothness map for a 06, (my bike is an 07) up on the forum, so I down loaded it and sent it to the bike that evening because I was headed for the Cherohala on Sat. Man I was really loving that smoothness map all the way up that mtn., but just as I crested the top and started heading down the back side things changed. I was running downhill on a long grade with the throttle closed and when rolling into the curve I decided to roll the throttel on and give her some gas, and when I did, it really surprised so bad that I thought that I was out of gas. Man I mean nothing was there, then I thought, hell I just filled up on the way home last night, then about that time it kicked back in. I thought that it did it a couple more times a high elevation but not a prodominate as just passing over the crest. By the time I rolled into Robbinsville, which is a motorcycle booming town, I had no more problems and the bike was strong and never missed a hit. WEEEllllll, today I get up early and head over the Smokey Mts. running over to Cherokee and it happens again at high elevation, this time going up the mtn. Have I done something wrong, or what is up.

I did disconnect the O2 sensor. The map for the 06 should work on the 07, no?

The only thing that I did not do is to set the throttel.

The bike runs fandamntastick at all other locations, except at high elevations.

Any replies appreciated.

85turbo · May 20, 2007

im only guessing here, as i don't own a pc3 yet. i have done a bunch of research on them however.

as the pc3 requires the 02 sensor to be disconnected, and at atitude there is a lot less oxygen in the air,

the bikes ecu cant properly compenstae for the lack of oxygen ?

like i said, its only a guess, but having to disconnect the 02 sensor is what's putting me off getting one.

the same maps for the 06 should also be fine on the 07's too.

anyine have a beter explanation of what might be happening here ?

jason

Bike Effects · May 21, 2007

The "Wally Smoothness map" was made for the 03-05 and is not compatible with an '06 or 07.

tophog · May 21, 2007

Please see this thread and see if it sounds familiar

Has nothing to do with the PCIII. There are bikes with the PCIII that still have the surging problem.

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=20661

jestal · May 22, 2007

Keep in mind that the fuel system and fuel injection system changed substantially from the 03/04/05 to the 06/07 bikes. The fuel system went from a return style fuel rail to a returnless rail. The injection sustem no longer has a barometer sensor as has been discussed at length. The PCIII is simply taking the outputed pulse width of the production ECM and adding an offset to the pulsewidth. It is still using the base ECM calibration as the starting point and only offsetting it for the correction put into the PCIII map. I would be very very hesitant to blindly use a PCIII cal developed for the 03/04/05 models on an 06/07 bike. Based on the postings there seem to be some significant differences in the way the 06/07's are calibrated in the factory ECM and to assume the same offset cal from an 03/04/05 popped into the PCIII will work correctly is taking a huge leap of faith. Not one I would recommend.

jestal · May 22, 2007

85turbo said:
as the pc3 requires the 02 sensor to be disconnected, and at atitude there is a lot less oxygen in the air,the bikes ecu cant properly compenstae for the lack of oxygen ?

The fuel injection system is a speed density system and uses the MAP sensor reading to calculate the fueling. The MAP takes into account the less dense air as the absolute manifold pressure becomes less and less as the altitude increases. It really doesn't rely on the O2 sensor to do this.

Not to say that there might be some slight correction from the O2 sensor if it were hooked up that helps with matching the fueling for altitude precisely but that is something that is in an air/fuel range that affects the emissions of the bike, not the driveablity.

I suspect that the deletion of the baro sensor on the 06/07's combined with some lean overrun fueling is causing the altitude issues. The barometric pressure sensor is used to measure atmospheric pressure for some parts of the fuel calculation and if the barometer reading used in the calculation inside the ECM is not correct then the driveality issues will result. Without the baro sensor it is much more difficult to obtain an accurate estimation of the true baro reading. This correlates with the 06/07 bikes ridden thru a widely changing altitude situation that seem to be the ones having a problem.

If there is some sort of glitch in the fueling calculation due to the (lack of the) baro sensor adding a PCIII will probably not fix it entirely. The PCIII still uses the base ECM fuel calculation and just offsets that final value delivered to the injectors. IF the base value has a glitch that changes with changes in altitude then the PCIII cannot react to that.

Some of the driveability issues with the 06/07 seem addressable with the PCIII.....as long as the bike stays at a certain altitude.

From what I am reading and hearing it seems like there are two distinct problems with the 06/07 driveability. Some leaness in part throttle and overrun fueling and/or decel fuel cutoff causes hitches and glitches in the off throttle/on throttle driveability regardless of altitude. Secondly, there seems to be some sort of altitude compensation glitch when the bike changes altitude dramatically that is separate from the first problem and may be caused by the lack of the baro sensor. The second problem is going to exacerbate the first problem at altitude so they may seem related or the same but I don't think so. If the PCIII makes the first problem much better it is going to mask the altitude problem to some extent but it will still likely be there.

BE advised....this is only a guess on my part based on reading about 06/07's on the forum and numerous PM's on the subject. My 03 runs fine. I can only guess what is inside the 06/07 FJR ECM based on previous experience so this idea may be totally off base. But since the 06/70 bikes have no baro sensor and they are suddenly having trouble with rapid changes in altitude it sort of makes one go hmmm..... Hmmmm......

fjr07 · May 22, 2007

Bike Effects said:
The "Wally Smoothness map" was made for the 03-05 and is not compatible with an '06 or 07.

I got it off the thread (great pcIII map for 06) in the Parts & Accessories listing.

bmwhd put three maps up to be used.

When I down loaded it to the Powercommander software on my computer, it even had 06 in the title.

The bike absolutely runs fantastic with it installed, just a totally different ride than before installing the smoothness map.

Will running the Wally map hurt the 07 bike?

tophog said:
Please see this thread and see if it sounds familiar Has nothing to do with the PCIII. There are bikes with the PCIII that still have the surging problem.
https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=20661

I read what I could of it this morning before going to work.

I will post my info to it this evening when I get back in.

jestal said:
Keep in mind that the fuel system and fuel injection system changed substantially from the 03/04/05 to the 06/07 bikes. The fuel system went from a return style fuel rail to a returnless rail. The injection sustem no longer has a barometer sensor as has been discussed at length. The PCIII is simply taking the outputed pulse width of the production ECM and adding an offset to the pulsewidth. It is still using the base ECM calibration as the starting point and only offsetting it for the correction put into the PCIII map. I would be very very hesitant to blindly use a PCIII cal developed for the 03/04/05 models on an 06/07 bike. Based on the postings there seem to be some significant differences in the way the 06/07's are calibrated in the factory ECM and to assume the same offset cal from an 03/04/05 popped into the PCIII will work correctly is taking a huge leap of faith. Not one I would recommend.

What will it do to the bike?

Like I said above it was listed in the thread (pcIII map for 06)

I just assumed that wally had got one out for the gen II bikes.

Like I also said above, the bike runs great in all areas of accelleration and decelleration, except for those two times this weekend at higher elevation.

fjr07 · May 22, 2007

jestal said:
85turbo said:

as the pc3 requires the 02 sensor to be disconnected, and at atitude there is a lot less oxygen in the air,the bikes ecu cant properly compenstae for the lack of oxygen ?

Click to expand...

The fuel injection system is a speed density system and uses the MAP sensor reading to calculate the fueling. The MAP takes into account the less dense air as the absolute manifold pressure becomes less and less as the altitude increases. It really doesn't rely on the O2 sensor to do this.

Not to say that there might be some slight correction from the O2 sensor if it were hooked up that helps with matching the fueling for altitude precisely but that is something that is in an air/fuel range that affects the emissions of the bike, not the driveablity.

I suspect that the deletion of the baro sensor on the 06/07's combined with some lean overrun fueling is causing the altitude issues. The barometric pressure sensor is used to measure atmospheric pressure for some parts of the fuel calculation and if the barometer reading used in the calculation inside the ECM is not correct then the driveality issues will result. Without the baro sensor it is much more difficult to obtain an accurate estimation of the true baro reading. This correlates with the 06/07 bikes ridden thru a widely changing altitude situation that seem to be the ones having a problem.

If there is some sort of glitch in the fueling calculation due to the (lack of the) baro sensor adding a PCIII will probably not fix it entirely. The PCIII still uses the base ECM fuel calculation and just offsets that final value delivered to the injectors. IF the base value has a glitch that changes with changes in altitude then the PCIII cannot react to that.

Some of the driveability issues with the 06/07 seem addressable with the PCIII.....as long as the bike stays at a certain altitude.

From what I am reading and hearing it seems like there are two distinct problems with the 06/07 driveability. Some leaness in part throttle and overrun fueling and/or decel fuel cutoff causes hitches and glitches in the off throttle/on throttle driveability regardless of altitude. Secondly, there seems to be some sort of altitude compensation glitch when the bike changes altitude dramatically that is separate from the first problem and may be caused by the lack of the baro sensor. The second problem is going to exacerbate the first problem at altitude so they may seem related or the same but I don't think so. If the PCIII makes the first problem much better it is going to mask the altitude problem to some extent but it will still likely be there.

BE advised....this is only a guess on my part based on reading about 06/07's on the forum and numerous PM's on the subject. My 03 runs fine. I can only guess what is inside the 06/07 FJR ECM based on previous experience so this idea may be totally off base. But since the 06/70 bikes have no baro sensor and they are suddenly having trouble with rapid changes in altitude it sort of makes one go hmmm..... Hmmmm......

Please read the thread (pcIII map for 06) posted by csanders99 , I believe around the 19th of may, and get back with me and let me know what you guys think.

tophog · May 22, 2007

I have loaded all the 06/07 maps posted in that thread as well as the Muzzy maps. In comparing the maps in the PCIII software they all appear to be similar ..that is nothing that stands out as being drastically different. The main difference in most of them is "when" the extra fueling comes on in the RPM range and when it drops off. I know the Muzzy map I obtained from Muzzy this week was designed by muzzy on their dyno using a 2006 bike. I'm sure the holeshot map was done the same way. As far as the smoothness map I think the values were translated to the 06 format using the PCIII software however it looks very much the same as the other dyno-based maps. I wouldn't be afraid to try any of them but will probably stick with the Muzzy since I have their slip-ons and they developed the map specifically for them.

bmwhd · May 22, 2007

jestal said:
Keep in mind that the fuel system and fuel injection system changed substantially from the 03/04/05 to the 06/07 bikes. The fuel system went from a return style fuel rail to a returnless rail. The injection sustem no longer has a barometer sensor as has been discussed at length. The PCIII is simply taking the outputed pulse width of the production ECM and adding an offset to the pulsewidth. It is still using the base ECM calibration as the starting point and only offsetting it for the correction put into the PCIII map. I would be very very hesitant to blindly use a PCIII cal developed for the 03/04/05 models on an 06/07 bike. Based on the postings there seem to be some significant differences in the way the 06/07's are calibrated in the factory ECM and to assume the same offset cal from an 03/04/05 popped into the PCIII will work correctly is taking a huge leap of faith. Not one I would recommend.

All true...and also all very likely irrelevant. I've spent some significant seat time with this "converted" '06/'07 version of Wally's fine smoothness map. I can tell you that it is very close based on my past experience tuning bikes with the PC. Only a dyno will tell for sure of course, but you're not going to be disappointed at all with this as a starting point. It absolutely transforms the bike at mid-throttle and virtually eliminated the 4,100 RPM vibe zone on my bike.

Not to be argumentative but it also seems a bit premature to be declaring an altitude problem with all '06+ bikes. There are a ton of them out there (mine included) that don't have any issues in this regard.

fjr07 · May 22, 2007

bmwhd said:
jestal said:

Keep in mind that the fuel system and fuel injection system changed substantially from the 03/04/05 to the 06/07 bikes. The fuel system went from a return style fuel rail to a returnless rail. The injection sustem no longer has a barometer sensor as has been discussed at length. The PCIII is simply taking the outputed pulse width of the production ECM and adding an offset to the pulsewidth. It is still using the base ECM calibration as the starting point and only offsetting it for the correction put into the PCIII map. I would be very very hesitant to blindly use a PCIII cal developed for the 03/04/05 models on an 06/07 bike. Based on the postings there seem to be some significant differences in the way the 06/07's are calibrated in the factory ECM and to assume the same offset cal from an 03/04/05 popped into the PCIII will work correctly is taking a huge leap of faith. Not one I would recommend.

Click to expand...

All true...and also all very likely irrelevant. I've spent some significant seat time with this "converted" '06/'07 version of Wally's fine smoothness map. I can tell you that it is very close based on my past experience tuning bikes with the PC. Only a dyno will tell for sure of course, but you're not going to be disappointed at all with this as a starting point. It absolutely transforms the bike at mid-throttle and virtually eliminated the 4,100 RPM vibe zone on my bike.

Not to be argumentative but it also seems a bit premature to be declaring an altitude problem with all '06+ bikes. There are a ton of them out there (mine included) that don't have any issues in this regard.

I don't know who Mr. Walley is but I would like to thank him for his map, and I will vouch that my bike runs fantastic with this smoothness mape for 06/07 fjr's.

If your running it in your 06 bike with no problems, I guess that I can run it in mine and not hurt anything.

Thanks for putting the maps up.

Richard

If you find anything out about what to do with the altitude problem drop me a line.

Bounce · May 22, 2007

been running Wally's smoothness map since it was released ('03 model). no complaints here.

recently took the D&D cans and the PC3 off for other reasons. my mpg went back up to ~42 mpg but the shaft jacking/slow-speed surge is back too. seems those 2 mods will go back on in the near future.

fjr07 · May 26, 2007

I went back up on that mountain today after reinstalling the origional map that came with the pcIII.

I kept turning around and making several runs along the higher elevations, and this is what I came up with.

The origional map (surges (as you guys call it)) also, and seems to be worse or more pronounced than the smoothness map for the new gen.II bikes. You guys call it surging, but I call it, or it seems to me like it is more of a fuel starvation thing. Although it will surge when it finally gets some fuel to it, and you better watch out for that when it does get the fuel to it.

But after making several passes at the higher elevations, and watching what gear and rpm, this is what I get.

It's always in (3rd) gear and at 2500 rpm or less, every time.

I was just wondering if someone else could verify this, and has found out what the cause was.

I will be reinstalling the smoothness map in the am.

tophog · May 26, 2007

I agree it feels more like fuel starvation (running out of gas) intially ...then surges when it finally gets fuel. And yes, it can be scary if it does it in the middle of a corner. I'm only hoping Yamaha figures it out asap and proactively fixes the problematic bikes. I haven't had a chance to get my bike back up in altitude since installing the PCIII but it sounds like the PCIII helps in masking the problem but doesn't resolve it ...which means it's most likely in input to the ECM that's causing the problem ...such as altitude

fjr07 said:
I went back up on that mountain today after reinstalling the origional map that came with the pcIII.I kept turning around and making several runs along the higher elevations, and this is what I came up with.

The origional map (surges (as you guys call it)) also, and seems to be worse or more pronounced than the smoothness map for the new gen.II bikes. You guys call it surging, but I call it, or it seems to me like it is more of a fuel starvation thing. Although it will surge when it finally gets some fuel to it, and you better watch out for that when it does get the fuel to it.

But after making several passes at the higher elevations, and watching what gear and rpm, this is what I get.

It's always in (3rd) gear and at 2500 rpm or less, every time.

I was just wondering if someone else could verify this, and has found out what the cause was.

I will be reinstalling the smoothness map in the am.

AZrider · Jun 12, 2007

Had similar experience on my ride up to Crestline from Mojave. 4500' elevation gain and 30F temp drop. Bike started hesitating coming out of turns and stumbled then caught. Had a similar experience going back down the mountain the next day. Read my ride report in that section.

It's an interesting experience and for a while I thought I might have to spend the night on the mountain. Wonder if it's a temperature sensor or altitude problem? :angry2:

AZ

fjr07 · Jun 12, 2007

AZrider said:
Had similar experience on my ride up to Crestline from Mojave. 4500' elevation gain and 30F temp drop. Bike started hesitating coming out of turns and stumbled then caught. Had a similar experience going back down the mountain the next day. Read my ride report in that section.
It's an interesting experience and for a while I thought I might have to spend the night on the mountain. Wonder if it's a temperature sensor or altitude problem? :angry2:

AZ

I did the barbarian mod a couple of weeks ago and changed the co to +4.

Still running the smoothness map for the new Gen. bikes.

Went back up that mtn. several times in the last two weeks, and no problems.

MotorSWATCop · Jun 13, 2007

I have run my 06 across the Cherohala several dozen times since last year. I have never had the slightest hesitation. This includes several forays into the realm of triple digits. I just got back from New Mexico & Colorado last week. The highest elevation I rode at was just below 11,000 feet on the Skyline Loop. There was a decrease in total power that i attribute to the lower oxygen percentage. However, the bike did not hesitate or exhibit any of the symptoms that have been laid out in the other threads. I have the PCIII w/ the Dynojet stock setting. On the trip, I ran Super Unleaded. Don't know if that would make a difference...

Jug · Jul 25, 2007

I don't know if it applies to the FJR, since it is a rather diferent system. but I also have a harley with a power commander installed. I discovered while "doing Sturgis" that the Fuel injection went lean at altitude and not rich like I would have thought. I solved it by going 1 -2 steps richer with the buttons untill I got back to lower altitudes. You could try using the buttons to enrichen the mixture while at altitude and see if it gets better. the buttons will not change your actual PCIII map. once you put the buttons back to zero you will have reversed any changes.

Last Chance · Jul 25, 2007

jestal said:
85turbo said:

as the pc3 requires the 02 sensor to be disconnected, and at atitude there is a lot less oxygen in the air,the bikes ecu cant properly compenstae for the lack of oxygen ?

Click to expand...

The fuel injection system is a speed density system and uses the MAP sensor reading to calculate the fueling. The MAP takes into account the less dense air as the absolute manifold pressure becomes less and less as the altitude increases. It really doesn't rely on the O2 sensor to do this.

Not to say that there might be some slight correction from the O2 sensor if it were hooked up that helps with matching the fueling for altitude precisely but that is something that is in an air/fuel range that affects the emissions of the bike, not the driveablity.

I suspect that the deletion of the baro sensor on the 06/07's combined with some lean overrun fueling is causing the altitude issues. The barometric pressure sensor is used to measure atmospheric pressure for some parts of the fuel calculation and if the barometer reading used in the calculation inside the ECM is not correct then the driveality issues will result. Without the baro sensor it is much more difficult to obtain an accurate estimation of the true baro reading. This correlates with the 06/07 bikes ridden thru a widely changing altitude situation that seem to be the ones having a problem.

If there is some sort of glitch in the fueling calculation due to the (lack of the) baro sensor adding a PCIII will probably not fix it entirely. The PCIII still uses the base ECM fuel calculation and just offsets that final value delivered to the injectors. IF the base value has a glitch that changes with changes in altitude then the PCIII cannot react to that.

Some of the driveability issues with the 06/07 seem addressable with the PCIII.....as long as the bike stays at a certain altitude.

From what I am reading and hearing it seems like there are two distinct problems with the 06/07 driveability. Some leaness in part throttle and overrun fueling and/or decel fuel cutoff causes hitches and glitches in the off throttle/on throttle driveability regardless of altitude. Secondly, there seems to be some sort of altitude compensation glitch when the bike changes altitude dramatically that is separate from the first problem and may be caused by the lack of the baro sensor. The second problem is going to exacerbate the first problem at altitude so they may seem related or the same but I don't think so. If the PCIII makes the first problem much better it is going to mask the altitude problem to some extent but it will still likely be there.

BE advised....this is only a guess on my part based on reading about 06/07's on the forum and numerous PM's on the subject. My 03 runs fine. I can only guess what is inside the 06/07 FJR ECM based on previous experience so this idea may be totally off base. But since the 06/70 bikes have no baro sensor and they are suddenly having trouble with rapid changes in altitude it sort of makes one go hmmm..... Hmmmm......

Gunny!!!! :clapping: Yeah, what he said!

LC

Power Commander III

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