Front Brakes

Gryphon · Sep 19, 2005

From the first ride, I have been a little disappointed with the performance of the front brakes, they felt mushy and required a bit more force than my Concours. I tried bleeding them, but had no change. I took the bike in for it's 600 mile service and had them check the brakes specifically. They said they got a couple of bubbles out and the brakes did feel better, but still not that great. I changed the fluid, bled them again, no improvement.

This weekend I changed the tires, and while the calipers were off, I took the time to clean them up. Blocking one caliper with a piece of wood between the pads, I pulled the other calipers pads out and pumped the pistons all the way out. Sprayed everything with brake cleaner, then reseated the pistons. Put the pads back in, blocked them open, then did the same thing to the other side. Put everything back together and now the brakes are working better than they ever have. I did ~150 miles today to scrub the new tires in and am really enjoying how light a touch is required to operate them, and how good they feel.

I have always done this type of caliper cleaning during a tire change, read about it years ago on another bulletin board, it has never changed the operation and feel of the brakes before.

Is there anyone else that has had a similar experience?

Toecutter · Sep 19, 2005

No, but I'll sure try it at the next tire change. Thanks for the class. Did you have to bleed the brakes after pushing the pistons out like that or did they not lose their seal?

Gryphon · Sep 20, 2005

I didn't push the pistons far enough to lose the seals. Right now my pads are about half worn, and I pumped them ~25mm further out. The idea is to extend them out, and spray them with brake cleaner to clean off the fine crud that builds up. Push them back in, install the pads and repeat on the other side. I have always done this during tire changes just to clean the calipers between pad changes, just never noticed a change in the brakes performance before.

Bike Effects · Sep 20, 2005

I o'hauled the brakes on my FJ1200 once and it made a new bike out of it, at least as far as the brake system goes.

Windjammer · Sep 20, 2005

From the first ride, I have been a little disappointed with the performance of the front brakes, they felt mushy and required a bit more force than my Concours.

Did you buy your FJR used, or new? I bought new, and the brake performance stomped all over the Connie I rode before. Accourse mine was a '90 with the older style brakes, but the '05 FJR brake performance was almost too much for my meaty hands to deal with.

Anyway, thanks for the helpful tips on brake service and nice job on using your own ability to solve what the dealer failed to um, deal with.

SkooterG · Sep 20, 2005

I bought new, and the brake performance stomped all over the Connie I rode before. Accourse mine was a '90 with the older style brakes, but the '05 FJR brake performance was almost too much for my meaty hands to deal with.

I agree. Same here.

Did you have to bleed the brakes after pushing the pistons out like that or did they not lose their seal?

I had to.

After experiencing extremely uneven pad wear on my front brakes, I did an half-assed overhaul to all the components including the pistons. I goofed however, and un-intentionally and un-expectedly popped two of the pistons out.

What a mess!!!! So, I ended up having to bleed the whole system, which I suppose was not a bad thing.

Here you can see the uneven wear:

Keep an eye on those pads!!!

Warchild · Sep 20, 2005

Here you can see the uneven wear:

This shot suggest that the pistons at the bottom of the photo are not retracting properly after you release the brakes, and that they are forcing the bottom-most pad to "ride up" on the rotor surface, causing the premature wear on that side only.

It is rather important to tear down those calipers every so often to clean and inspect, and this helps prevent the road spooge from caking up onto the piston wall like you see above.

Here's a re-post of when I did this job on the Blackbird's LBS system.... (future 2006 owners might as well get used to this!) :lol: Obviously, these calipers are different from the FJR mono-block calipers (which you won't be "splitting" as I do here with these Nissian linked brake calipers), but the approach to cleaning them is the same:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First, you take your MityVac and suck out every trace of old, nasty brake fluid from the brake system as clearly outlined in Chap 15 of your Honda Blackbird Service Manual. Before you crack open your first bleed nipple, suck out the master cylinder until it's bone-dry:

Here is my neglected, nasty-ass crusty left front caliper:

Close-up of the pistons all caked with road splooge from 60,000+ miles of use. Bad Warchild.... dirty calipers, Bad, BAD!!

Break the caliper halves apart by removing the three caliper body bolts (12mm socket) on the non-piston side of the assembly. Note Honda's use of red loctite on the trailing threads of the bolts. You'll be working the rachet handle to the bitter end:

Pull the pistons out far enough to expose all the crusty brake spoo (yellow arrow) so you can thoroughly clean them. You could go whole hog and replace all seals at this point if you felt so inclined. Me, I elected just to clean the dog-**** out of the assembly, and keep going.

Using a non-petroleum based cleaner, scrub all the crusty road spooge off the pistons and caliper body:

Now flush your shiny-clean piston with clean hydraulic fluid and re-insert it into its respective cylinder:

Now clean out all the old dried, caked-up lube remaining inside the slider pin boots (obviously, replace these boots if they are damaged/torn):

Warchild · Sep 20, 2005

And thoroughly lube up the interior of the slider boots with an appropriate hi-temp grease of your choice:

Apply a thin layer of this same lube on your slider pins....

And finally, reassemble these bad boyz:

Although the Service Manual calls for new caliper assembly bolts, frankly, you're safe to use the old ones if they are in good shape, cleaned of old threadlocker, etc. Here I'm applying Loctite Blue to the trailing threads of the caliper assembly bolts prior to reassembly:

Torque these bolts down to 24ft-lbs (32N-m).... now, don't be ******* this one away!!! :t

DONE! All cleaned, lubed, reassembled and ready for some brake pads and Spiegler lines!

teerex51 · Sep 20, 2005

Great stuff, Dale :clap:

Thanks a million on behalf of us caliper-shy folks

Stef

Gryphon · Sep 21, 2005

From the first ride, I have been a little disappointed with the performance of the front brakes, they felt mushy and required a bit more force than my Concours.

Click to expand...

Did you buy your FJR used, or new?

I bought new, she had .3 on the odometer when I got her. In the last few days, I have gained more confidence and trust in the bike. It has been like having her new all over again only with great brakes.

Thug · Sep 21, 2005

Hey Dale come over to my joint for a few weeks I'll feed and water you with what ever you like and you can ride my bike as much as you like but you'll need to show me some of them there little *** bits!

yamaholic · Sep 26, 2005

When I rode FJRDon's '05 ABS the first time, I noticed the same thing..spongy brakes, very little feel to them. The second time, 4K miles later, they felt firmer. S

On my '03, I too thought the brakes were not that strong. However, coming off a 420lb YZF600 with EXACTLY THE SAME brakes as the much heavier FJR, this is not surprising at all. Pushing in the calipers and a full bleed helped matters quite a bit. But it still wasn't enough. Hence currently running SS lines with Galfer wave rotors and sintered pads. NOW it stops on a dime...

A tip is to wrap a bungie cord around your brake lever with it engaged overnight. I will help to push bubbles up into the master cylinder where it will do no harm.

Gryphon · Sep 27, 2005

Just got back from my ride to Anderson Ca. to have a seat built by Rick Mayer. Which by the way is the best money I have ever spent on a motorcycle. After the build, I got lost around Lassen Volcanic National Park for several hours and didn't even once feel the new saddle. By the way, if you get the chance to be in Cottonwood, stop at Grandma's BBQ, the food is fantastic and the owners are most excellent hosts.

About 2500 miles ridden, slabbed I-5, went down 36, Avenue of the Giants, Lost Coast, 101, 199, 38, 138, I-5, 503, 7, then home. I was very pleased during the whole trip with the brake performance, but from yamaholic's post, I might be missing something. I can see the investment in SS brake lines, having less flex in the lines would transmit more force to the pads. I can see sintered pads helping, but what makes galfer rotors more effective?

smthng · Sep 27, 2005

...but what makes galfer rotors more effective?

Chick dig 'em.

If you come from another bike that doesn't have the MILES of brake lines the FJR does, the FJR brakes will feel mushy. They work, they stop, yada yada. They just feel like "da poop". SS lines is the way to go.

ionbeam · Sep 27, 2005

SkooterG's uneven brake wear is usually an indicator that the slider pins need service. Disk brakes do not have a 'retraction' mechanism after you release the lever. If there is any sticking what so ever between the caliper half and the slider pins, the brakes will not fully retract leading to dragging pads, thus the wear. When servicing your brakes be sure the slider pins are clean and not bent. If there is any galling or surface defects that won't clean up replace 'em. After the pins are clean follow Warchild's slider lube instructions.

I have ridden several '05s when they were relatively low mileage and they all had much softer brakes than my '04. One of the '05 owners that rode my '04 noted how different my brakes were. He also said that he didn't want to change the way his '05 brakes worked because they were more forgiving, easier to control and much less likely to accidentally over brake. My opinion differed

Alan

Canadian FJR · Jan 5, 2006

Time to replace the front pads (53,000 km) and thought I should clean up the pistons. Any problem using WD-40 as long as I don't overspray on to the disc.

Canadian FJR

sportryder · Jan 6, 2006

Time to replace the front pads (53,000 km) and thought I should clean up the pistons. Any problem using WD-40 as long as I don't overspray on to the disc.

Canadian FJR

Brake and parts cleaner is already available that would not damage the piston seals. I've used the Next Dimension brand along with other brands with great success. Then, if you are still worried about any stiction that might be present at the brake caliper piston seals, you could take a little bit of WD-40 applied to a rag or Q-tip and lightly coat the exterior surface of the pistons near the seals being careful to wipe away any excess. I don't think it's necessary to use any WD-40 though. I would never just spray WD-40 on the brake parts to clean them even if the pads were removed and the calipers were out of the way and the rotors were covered up or protected.

EDITED last sentence to include the rotors being covered or protected.

radman · Jan 6, 2006

+1 on the Nxt Dimension Brake Clean. Great stuff, old school chlorinated, does the job. Take the WD40, put it in a room as far from this brake job as possible.

Warchild · Jan 6, 2006

SkooterG's uneven brake wear is usually an indicator that the slider pins need service.

Doubtful, since the FJR front calipers do not have slider pins. They are mono-block units.

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