Brake Issue

Has anyone had a problem with there brakes staying engaged after bike start up?

Let me give you a little back ground.

Monday the 22nd I checked my tire pressure and noticed I lost 20lbs of pressure in my rear tire in three days and had some bad wear on the tire. It appears I picked up a staple in my rear tire. Tuesday I called most of the local shops only to find out no-one had a tire that fit in stock. I was hoping that Sierra Yamaha would have a tire in stock since I was making the two hour ride to their location on Thursday for the ECU replacement. After many calls Reno Motor Sports (RMS) told me they could get me a tire Wednesday if I came in and paid for the tire. After some talking with RMS I decided I would pull the tire off the bike and pay $15 for the mount rather then $45 for them to pull the tire and mount it. RMS and I agreed they would call me between 9:00 and 10:00 when UPS delivers the tire.

This worked for me since one of my co-workers with a truck would be at the office the first part of the day before he took off on vacation. Wednesday Scott and I pulled the tire off at 7:30 and started work. Around 10:00 I called RMS to see if my tire had arrived yet. I was told it was not there yet. I called again at 11:00 and 11:45 only to be told both times the order had not arrived yet. Scott was getting close to heading out for vacation so we put the wheel back on the bike. I was getting a little upset at RMS by this point. The first time I dealt with them they matched Tire Expresses online price, but raised the price to mount and balance my tires. However, I wanted to give them a second chance. This time they charged me $11 more then the price quoted on the phone. When I asked about this I was told the guy on the phone was incorrect. Now, I am stuck paying the $45 to mount and balance. At this point I can't be upset at them if UPS is late making a delivery.

At 12:30 I call only to learn my tire is not ready since the order has not been checked in yet. I ask the guy on the phone when the order arrived. I learned it arrived at 8:45, but they are one person short and have not got to the order yet. I am now a bit more upset at RMS, it is a tire, not a small item that would be in a box with other items. Why couldn't someone just pull my tire out? I call around and find Reno Chop Shop just one block from the Scuba shop I teach at and one block from RMS. Reno Chop Shop will charge $50 to mount and balance if I bring the bike and tire in. I head to RMS and ask to pick up my tire. RMS had no problem at all cutting the clear packing tape holding four tires together and give me the tire. I head to Reno Chop Shop for a tire install.

The techs and owner at Reno Chop Shop turn out to be some nice guys. However, they have never worked on a metric bike. So, they struggle a bit. They boot up a PC in the tech bay and I point them to FJRTech.com for a guide on tire removal. After the tire was replaced I headed back to work steaming about RMS.

Thursday I drive past two Yamaha dealers to drive to Chilcoot, CA to have Sierra Yamaha perform the ECU replacement. I trust Sierra Yamaha far more then my two local dealers. Sierra Yamaha must be doing something correct. They are 1.5 hours from anywhere and Chilcoot has a population of less then 400 people. More then a few riders make long trips from Reno to there. When I get there I pull right up to the bay door, dismount and take off my gear. After a few minutes of talking with their tech who owns a 05 FJR they start to roll my bike in. WHAT??? I hear metal on metal grinding. The tech and I look at the rear wheel to learn the washer was installed on the wrong side of the caliper. My rotor had some deep groves and my caliper was chewed up a bit. How the hell did I not hear this while riding? I guess my helmet does good keeping sound out.

The tech moved the washer to the correct place free of charge. I really do like Sierra Yamaha. My quote was $370 for a replacement caliper and rotor. The damage to the caliper was cosmetic and the tech tells me if a grinder smoothed out the medal it will not be a issue. After my ECU was replaced I headed to Reno Chop Shop to talk about the rotor damage. I did not want to screw Reno Chop Shop, it was an honest mistake on their part trying to help me out. So, I stuck a deal with the owner that I will buy after market wave rotors for front and rear at his cost. He would not lose any money on me as a customer, and I get some nice replacement rotors cheap.

Today:

I start my bike up this morning and get on my way. The bike hesitates a little bit as a start out. The hesitation I am talking about I can duplicate with out an issue. On my AE if I try to start moving from a stop to slow I get a little hesitation related to the bike controlling the clutch. This is not a problem, I just accelerate a little fast. As I come up to the stop sign I roll of the throttle and slow faster then normal. It felt like the brake was being applied, but I was not applying brake. I go up the road and test rolling off the throttle. It is clear to me some brake is being applied. At the stop light I pump the brakes to see if that helps, it makes it worse. Now there is more pressure on the brakes and I can not roll the bike with out giving it some gas. I pull into a parking lot to look at the problem.

After getting in the parking lot I leave the bike running in neutral and put it on the center stand. I can see the brake pads are in contact with the rotors and the wheels do not move freely. I check both the front and rear brakes and when applied I can not roll the tires at all. If, the brakes are not applied I can roll the tire with some resistance. Hmmm, what is going on? Is this related to the new ECU or the brake problem with the tire being put on wrong? I can not see how either issue could cause my brake issue. So, I turn the bike off and restart it. Problem gone. The problem just went away after the restart

***EDIT***

The tech at Sierra Yamaha is off work today so I can not run this by him.

ABS light has NOT came one.

Bike has been turned on/off 7 times and the problem as not returned.

<---- not a tech... but I had hydro-lock with my 03' BMW GS - I had either old fluid or something... anyway, the resolution involved replacing my brake fluid. I attached a tube to the bleeder valve and ran it to a pail to collect the run off brake fluid. I opened the brake fluid resevoir and poured in the new fluid. I opened the valve by the caliper and squeezed the brake lever to cause the fluid to pour out of the brake lines. I kept adding fresh fluid and squeezing out the old fluid until the fluid ran clear. I topped off the fluid to the correct height and closed everything up. I'm sure there's a better procedure than what I described, but it worked for me.

John, its more likely that there is some dirt/road grime or perhaps "aluminum shavings" in the pistons of the caliper. When they were forced into the caliper bores to fit the caliper assembly back over the rotor, it has caused the brake pistons to "stick".

I've successfully pulled the assembly and used "Brakleen" to clean splooge from between the pistons and bores. If this doesn't work, you will likely have to disassemble the calipers and clean thoroughly then reassemble with new seals, etc.

IIRC, Ignacio or Beeroux had a post about redoing theirs in prep for the Iron Butt.

Here's a link to a Google page that might give you some help or insight: sticking brakes site;fjrforum.com

Food luck and tell us what you find.

madmike2 said:

IIRC, Ignacio or Beeroux had a post about redoing theirs in prep for the Iron Butt.

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I didn't specifically for the IBR thinking I'd be able to go OK from when I did a toothbrush cleaning back when I put on the Carbon Lorraines in the Spiegler group buy. However, just last weekend I noticed I had an uneven wearing front brake and just starting to get metal into metal. The brakes also act a bit sticky...maybe a piston seal is gummed up.

One of my projects this winter (since it's time to change brake fluid again) will be to take off the calipers and and do a thorough cleaning...particularly on the slides and....I haven't done it before....actually pop out the pistons and clean in there and/or replace the seals. Although this is the first uneven wear I've gotten on a bike I know from cars that just a bit of muck will either make the calipers not float properly and/or the piston seal gets mucked up and piston doesn't retract like it should. Both would wear out a pad unevenly.

Winter is a great time to become one with one's brakes and do some TLC.

BTW, there's a datapoint for an LD rider. About 65,000 on a front set of pads....and they would have gone another 30,000 had they worn evenly. The rears went about 50,000....which could speak to some bad habit I have of trail-braking.....but I prefer to say that it's because when my radar detector goes off I pound the rear on purpose so my headlight won't dip so obviously.

Here's a little diagram I found about that piston/seal/caliper interface that I remembered seeing years ago and finally getting why disc brakes work so well:

I guess that's why I'm an FNG.

ESPrider said:

I guess that's why I'm an FNG.

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Not at all. Old fluid is also plausible, but I think it would probably have to be seriously old fluid with floaties that probably would be obvious when looking in the master cylinder. I would guess it would be DARK brown....and an '06 probably wouldn't to be that stage yet.

Thanks guys

If my issue is related to the pistons being gummed why would turning off/on the bike help? I don't doubt what you are saying, I am just trying to wrap my head around this.

I will try to give them a good cleaning this weekend. Over the last week I have rode in a light rain five or six times. The rain was not heavy enough to get all the dirt off the road, but was enough to make the road a mess.

John T said:

If my issue is related to the pistons being gummed why would turning off/on the bike help?

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I'm not sure about that part. Maybe it has something to do with the linked nature of your Gen II and/or ABS. Maybe some will come along with a unified theory......or set us all right and debunk our current ones.

Did I mention I like Sierra Yamaha?

I called this morning and learned the tech was not in today. However, since it was a brake issue they called him at him at home. He called Yamaha about the issue and Yamaha did not have a clear cut answer. The suggestion is if it happens again bring the bike in to check the speed sensor. The tech and Yamaha are making a educated guess the speed sensor related to the ABS might be failing.

As a suggestion I am going to make sure the connection to the ECU are tight. Since I just had the ECU replaced the ECU might not have got the correct signal from the speed sensor if the ECU connections were not tight. This might be the reason turning the bike off/on corrected my issue.

I dare say that 99% of the time, sticky brakes are the result of foreign matter somewhere in the caliper. You would be amazed at how small a particle is required to make them stick.

On my 05, I had a tiny pebble, much smaller than a BB, stuck in the adjuster just under the edge of the brake hardware/plate. So my advice is to remove/disassemble/examine all three calipers and thoroughly clean all three using Brake Parts Cleaner. A fluid flush/refill and then see what happens. Be sure to check caliper adjuster movements and make sure they all move freely with equal pressure from both directions.

Don't forget that on the linked Gen-II systems you can have a problem with a rear caliper that affects the front, and one front caliper can significantly affect the other front caliper.

Turning off the ignition making a difference, could have to do with something in the ABS being "released" and allowing the applied pressure in the defective caliper to bleed off as backflow through the system. My bet is still that you have some foreign matter that needs to be exiled!



Okay, just read your latest post as I posted mine. Never mind! Somehow I missed the part about having just replaced the ECU.

Basic rule of troubleshooting applies here. Always, ALWAYS look to the last thing that was disturbed as the first possibility of what's wrong. IMO Yami has it right.

John, did you check any diag. codes per the troubleshooting on the Bin-O'-Facts page. I wonder if the ECU recorded a code? Or, like you already believe, it is a loose connection (not to be confused with a loose conection in this owners brain...).

There is no way the ECU had anything to do with sticky brakes. It's a manual system for the most part, even with the ABS.

Could have been something from the caliper goof from the one shop.

As for normal wear and tear, Iggy, you gotta quit taking braking lessons from the 'Nut. 132,000 miles on my original rear pads, though they will be replaced soon.

Like you, I got 65,000 miles on my second set of front pads. The first set went at about 30k due to the uneven wear. CLICKY HERE

Prior to the IBR, I was going to do a total rebuild, but it was too pricey for new pistons/seals for both calipers, even from U Motors.

So I just pulled out all the pistons and cleaned them and the calipers really well. So far, so good.

SkooterG said:

So I just pulled out all the pistons and cleaned them and the calipers really well. So far, so good.

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Did that freak you out a little? I mean taking a tight-fitting metal object out of another metal object that has a fairly fine seal separating the two. I'm hoping the seal stays put, it's pretty easy to clean gunk without hurting that seal, and the piston goes back in without too much drama?

Ignacio said:

Did that freak you out a little? I mean taking a tight-fitting metal object out of another metal object that has a fairly fine seal separating the two. I'm hoping the seal stays put, it's pretty easy to clean gunk without hurting that seal, and the piston goes back in without too much drama?

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Yeah, it freaked me out a little bit. It was the first time I had every disassembled a caliper.

Trying to get all 4 pistons out was a PITA. Once one is out, you can't use the hydraulic pressure to get the rest out, and they were stuck in there good. For the life of me, I can't remember what trick I finally used to get them all out.

Once out, no problemo. Seals weren't going to go anywhere. I did not clean the interior of the caliper, as everything inboard of the seals was fine. Just cleaned up the pistons really good. Took some serious scrubbing. That **** was baked on good.

Some good points worth knowing. I would imagine it would be possible to place C clamps on the two pairs of two independent pistons and swap loosening the clamps while pressing the brake working them all out to almost the end...at least enough that one has enough purchase to work the 3 remaining out.

And, be very, very careful in cleaning around the seal. I would think just dousing that seal in a brake cleaner stream would be enough.

It has taken me some time to get back to this. The weather has been hit and miss and my riding time is a bit limited. In addition, I had to wait two weeks for a part from Yamaha.

After rebuilding the rear caliper the problem was still present. Every so often both my front and rear brakes would drag. The solution was to replace the brake fluid. ESPrider nailed the problem. I was not sure it would be the problem since my bike had only be assembled 10 months before the problem started.

On a side note, Umotors is the place to buy your o-ring kits for the calipers. I purchased all three ring kits for less then $10. My local dealer wants $42.32 for the three kits.

Thank you everyone for the suggestions.