Intermittent Shifting Problem

I've experienced a weird situation twice on my '07 Feejer which has about 6500 miles, of which 1000 are mine.

On two occassions when I've screwed up and come to a stop in third, I've tried to downshift to second and first (clutch engaged, of course) only to find that the clutch pedal simply would not depress and click. On both occassions, when I turned the bike off and then back on, I could shift it down normally. In both cases, I'd been riding for at least an hour, without any unusual events; indeed, pleasant rides. After I got it back working, everything was fine for the rest of the rides.

I was at a stop without anyone behind me, so except for some curses that were contained within my helmet, nothing bad happened.

Is this a symptom of something going bad (other than the rider, of course)?

Won't Shift == Is it a Problem:

Yep.

This has happend to me numerous times on my FZ6R and I believe at least once on the FJR. If you move the bike forward or backwards, will it shift down then?

For me, at least, when the same thing happens to me, get to a stop, but wont down shift, I just roll the bike a foot forward of backwards, and then try to shift down again. It almost seems like the clutch slipped or something needed to be aligned to allow the motor/clutch/shaft to sync back up again.

Give it a try and let me know it helps. =)

verranth said:

For me, at least, when the same thing happens to me, get to a stop, but wont down shift, I just roll the bike a foot forward of backwards, and then try to shift down again. It almost seems like the clutch slipped or something needed to be aligned to allow the motor/clutch/shaft to sync back up again.

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+1 - I have this happen occasionally. Rolling the bike always "fixes" it.

I wonder if the clutch is set wrong, or maybe we are lazy with the lever and not pressing it all the way in?

On my FZ6R, the pedal wouldnt go up from 1st to Nuetral (i was gearing up and I wanted to warm her up a bit), so I tried harder. The pedal did finally go up, but it wouldnt shift down properly for the next 30 miles =(

I think it partially "fixed" itself, but I havent taken her out again. I hope I didnt break anything.

Thanks. Did try to let the clutch out a little and then press in again -- didn't work. Didn't try the rolling method, come to think of it. If I need to deal with this in future, I'll try that.

Appreciate it, gang.

Doesn't have anything to do with the clutch. With the bike stopped in gear, no rotating parts in the transmission are actually moving, and the dogs may not be lined up. Trying to shift result in the dogs hitting steel instead of holes in the hub of the gear you're trying to engage, and it won't shift. That's why moving the bike "fixes" it: it moves the gear around enough to line up the dogs.

Forcing a shift when the bike's not moving can bend shift forks, resulting in poor shifting for the rest of the transmission's shortened life. These are not like synchronized car transmissions, where the synchro rings have 30 or 40 teeth that'll slide over to engage a gear. The engagement is made with as few as 4 big pins (dogs) sliding into holes in the hub of the gears. If those holes aren't in line with the pins, nothing moves.

Inability to shift a non-moving bike is absolutely normal, and expected. This is why all the "How to ride" books, and the MSF courses, emphasize downshifting as you brake, and being in first by the time you stop. Downshifting with the brakes should be a reflex, not an "Oh, yeah, shoulda oughta did that."

(OTOH, I remember sitting at a light on the beach recently during the cruiser rally that is Thunder Beach here. I'm at a red light in the straight lane, 6 bikes pull up to the left turn light next to me. They all stop, put ther left foot down. Then nearly in unison, they put their right feet down and lift their left feet to the shifters and kick down 5 times. After being stopped. If your transmission only has to last another 400 miles before you sell the bike, then fine. Do it that way. )

"But, Walt, you moron, what about shifting to first when the bike's stopped? Why does that work?"

Once again it is not me that's the moron! When the bike is stopped in neutral, the clutch is driving the input shaft of the transmission. Rotating parts are rotating. So you squeeze the clutch and kick it into first. That clunk is the weight of the spinning input shaft being brough down to the output shaft's speed: zero. Now you have no rotation and an unshiftable bike. Who cares? You're in first, and ready to release the clutch with some throttle and move out. You can go back to neutral and release the clutch, thus spinning the input shaft again, but you probably can't go right into second with the bike stopped. (You can go neutral, cycle the clutch, and then second, good for "traction control" if moving off a slippery surface like muddy sand.)

wfooshee said:

Inability to shift a non-moving bike is absolutely normal, and expected. This is why all the "How to ride" books, and the MSF courses, emphasize downshifting as you brake, and being in first by the time you stop. Downshifting with the brakes should be a reflex, not an "Oh, yeah, shoulda oughta did that."

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Thanks. I normally do shift reflexively as I brake/slow down, but sometimes the reflexes don't trigger right. Fortunately, I've been smart enough not to use the "dang it I'll just stomp harder" approach, so I'll try to roll the bike next time it (hopefully doesn't) happen(s).

This senario occurs with my 07 at times. Not a big deal...roll the bike or sometimes I'll let the clutch out, then pull back in and it will shift into gear no problem.

I normally will leave the clutch pulled/engaged for a moment (allows the mass to slow down) before shifting into gear. This way, I don't get that horrendous "clunk" when shifting into gear. This procedure works very good when the bike is cold.

wfooshee said:

Doesn't have anything to do with the clutch. With the bike stopped in gear, no rotating parts in the transmission are actually moving, and the dogs may not be lined up. <major snippage>

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Great answer, Walt!

There have been a few questions like this in the past couple of months.

Your answer should be added to the FAQ section.

I, too, have encountered this scenario....like having to perform an emergency stop due to traffic, particularly in "rush hour".

There I am, stuck in 4th or 5th, with the inability to downshift.

But rather than roll the bike to line up the dogs, I normally ease the clutch out a little to get the gears spinning, then quickly downshift to the next gear. Repeat as necessary to get down to neutral or first. Just a little clutch engagement works just like rolling the bike, but a lot easier for someone with bad/unreliable knees.

As long as any gear is selected, easing the clutch will spin nothing. Nothing moves unless the rear wheel moves if it's in any gear.

But I bet clutching it moves the bike enough to line up a set of holes with the dogs.

wfooshee said:

As long as any gear is selected, easing the clutch will spin nothing. Nothing moves unless the rear wheel moves if it's in any gear.
But I bet clutching it moves the bike enough to line up a set of holes with the dogs.

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Hmmm....that could be it, because easing the clutch out does move the bike marginally. Didn't think that would be enough movement to shift the gear positions that much, but you're more than likely correct.

RadioHowie said:

. . . . but you're more than likely correct.

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Yeah. Check the sig. :bleh:

wfooshee said:

RadioHowie said:

. . . . but you're more than likely correct.

Click to expand...

Yeah. Check the sig. :bleh:

Click to expand...

Nobody reads those silly things. :

RadioHowie said:

wfooshee said:

As long as any gear is selected, easing the clutch will spin nothing. Nothing moves unless the rear wheel moves if it's in any gear.
But I bet clutching it moves the bike enough to line up a set of holes with the dogs.

Click to expand...

Hmmm....that could be it, because easing the clutch out does move the bike marginally. Didn't think that would be enough movement to shift the gear positions that much, but you're more than likely correct.

Click to expand...

Hmmm..., Not quite: The rear wheel is a direct connection to the transmission layshaft and they will (or won't) turn together. The transmission mainshaft (input shaft), though, is connected directly to the clutch inner basket. When 'in gear', if/when the inner clutch basket moves the bike moves. However, if one wants to shift a stopped-in-gear, running, motorcycle (constant-mesh g/box) one really needs to merely 'break the flow of power' to "unload" the pressure in the gear-dogs to allow for them to slip out-of-'couple'. When in between gears -- leaving one and sliding to another -- you're 'in neutral' (not the real "neutral"); but, transmission gear not locked to a transmission shaft.

It's the "un-loading" process that's of real importance here. It's all a constant mesh transmission needs for shifting -- allowing the gear dogs to realease. The clutch, itself, should be enough to provide that -- if it releases fully and doesn't drag. Blipping the throttle and cycling the clutch are also valid techniques to accomplish that.

All that said, good motorcycle transmissions (and I consider the FJR's to be one) can be shifted -- even at full power -- with just a flick of the toe without the benefit of clutch release (but that may be for another thread...?). :blink:

But without applying some clutch, or moving the bike by walking it, if the dogs aren't lined up with holes in the gear hub, they will remain not lined up, the desired gear won't be selected, and the star cam will send you back to the previous gear (the gear you're "stuck" in) under its spring pressure. A stopped-in-gear bike has no load on the dogs other than what the open clutch applies by oil and friction drag. Both shafts are locked to the rear wheel by the fact that it's in gear. If the dogs are pointed at steel instead of holes, something on those shafts has to turn, just a little bit, and if it's stopped in gear that can't happen.

Yes, the bike passes through neutral every time you shift, but that doesn't turn the gear hub. Slipping the clutch with just a touch of friction zone while trying to shift will get the dogs turning during the shift, but it has to be light enough not to lock the gear you're trying to come out of. That may have been RadioHowie's fix. And it won't take much, just a few degrees on the shaft, to move the gear hub far enough to engage, and it'll probably be a rather clunky shift.

As for clutchless shifting, that applies to any non-synchro sequential transmission, but I'm not brave enough to force the shifter while loaded. Maybe it's going to go, maybe it'll bend my forks. But with unloaded throttle (not closed throttle!) shifts are smooth as glass and lightening fast.

wfooshee said:

But without applying some clutch, or moving the bike by walking it, if the dogs aren't lined up with holes in the gear hub, they will remain not lined up, the desired gear won't be selected, and the star cam will send you back to the previous gear (the gear you're "stuck" in) under its spring pressure. A stopped-in-gear bike has no load on the dogs other than what the open clutch applies by oil and friction drag. Both shafts are locked to the rear wheel by the fact that it's in gear. If the dogs are pointed at steel instead of holes, something on those shafts has to turn, just a little bit, and if it's stopped in gear that can't happen.

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All well and good -- but,the sliding dog must first be freed from it's coupling to whatever gear is selected -- that's my point -- and pressure applied to the parts (either by clutch drag or other loading) tends to keep that from happening. Once released from its coupling, the freely rotating dogs will find 'holes' in the next gear.

Seems to me, your example would be more applicable to stopped bike -- non-running engine?

wfooshee said:

Yes, the bike passes through neutral every time you shift, but that doesn't turn the gear hub. Slipping the clutch with just a touch of friction zone while trying to shift will get the dogs turning during the shift, but it has to be light enough not to lock the gear you're trying to come out of.

Click to expand...

Agreed...

wfooshee said:

As for clutchless shifting, that applies to any non-synchro sequential transmission, but I'm not brave enough to force the shifter while loaded. Maybe it's going to go, maybe it'll bend my forks. But with unloaded throttle (not closed throttle!) shifts are smooth as glass and lightening fast.

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Good gearboxes, no extreme force required -- motorcycles have used them for a long time (some, way better than others...). AMC/Norton (Quaife conversion) is a good example -- although quite HP limited -- the action/operation is exemplary. WFO up-shifts are constantly supported by racers' down-for-higher-gears shift patterm.

[SIZE=36pt]CRIPPLE FIGHT!!!![/SIZE]