'07 electrical gremlin?

[blakebird]

'07 that I bought from a dealer used in July 2008 with 1,107 miles. Mint.

I've put 27,600 miles on it in the next 13 months. In August I got back from a 4,000 mile trip to Canadian Rockies, then took it to a local privateer shop with a good rep., to have the first valve lash check and TB synch. They also did some suspension work.

The bike did sit there for six weeks while the parts vendors muffed the shock spring order, then sent Gen I fork springs, etc. The shop owner (suspension guy) broke his ankle and needed surgery too....

So - it took a while to get the bike back, thru no real fault of the shop's.

Electrically, last year I put a Fuzeblock FZ1 on and put the GPS and PIAA 1100X's thru it. The Powerlets go straight to battery. I did a very clean install, and those items have been on the bike most of the time I've had it with absolutely no issues. I seldom ride with the PIAA's on, and the heated liner is rarely full on. The voltage monitor has always gone green after self-test.

When I started it at the shop and got ready to leave, I noticed the voltage monitor was flashing red. I brought it to the shop owner's attention - the coincidence of it NOT being shop related seemed impossible. The only thing they did electrically related, was that during the shock work they unplugged the ECU.

The battery seemed fine, plenty strong....just primed the fuel rail with a firm hum - and lit right off.

I thought 'ok, maybe loose wire' and I'll checkit when I get home. (yes, in retrospect I should have left it there for them to check - but my ride up there was gone...)

Except I didn't get home. It ran off the battery for about 8 miles and at an intersection waiting for a light - the dash display went blank, it ran on a couple of cylinders.....and it barely made it thru the green light before dying. I called the shop, they sent out a couple of people after me. While I was waiting, I turned the key on, and all systems normal. Gauges sweep, all LCD's on, fired right up.

When the shop folks showed up, we agreed it might be best for me to ride back to the shop, since it started back up. I'd call the wife for a ride...

Turned the key back on, and it spun slowly for a couple seconds, and was done.

There's a battery shop next to the bike shop - we called, they had a battery ready to go...so we went and I bought it.

Tech grabbed his multimeter, back we go to the FJR. The oem battery came back enough to start the bike - but the tester indicated it was not taking much of a charge (~12v), and sitting with everything off it was in the low 11's.

Put the new battery in, and voltages were fine. At this point it appears the oem battery (30 mos old) just **** the bed out of the clear blue sky.

Just a coincidence about the shop visit - but that the six week's of sitting probably played a part.

I left the fuse block and powerlet leads off in the interest of time - getting dark, long ways to get home. No voltage monitor. But, I made it home fine, and I reconnected the leads and now have a solid green voltage monitor. Yay.... appears to be fixed, and that the problem was likely a short in the oem battery or a bad plate....who knows.

Today I needed a long FJR ride to check out the new suspension and make up for six weeks without it. I left pre-dawn, temps in the low 40's, and had my Gerbing liner on. High beams (not the PIAA's) was the only other accessory load. Everything was fine for about 100 miles, then the red flashing voltage monitor caught my eye. Damn!

I turned off the high beams - the monitor went to solid red (better than flashing red), then to yellow. Turning off the liner, it went to green.

OK....so I'm charging ok with no load - and I headed for the barn.

On the way home, I hit the PIAA's at about 3,000 rpm's....monitor straight to yellow. Rode into town with no load, stayed green.

At a stoplight idling, the turn signals sent the monitor to yellow.

I've read thru this subforum looking for charging system or regulator/rectifier issues, but the only thing that caught my eye was the grounding problem.

My symptoms don't really fit that IMO, but maybe there's something I'm not seeing.

I believe, for the moment, that the issue was a fluke with regards to the shop visit - aside from unplugging the ECU they didn't do anything electrical, didn't touch the battery, etc. Any thoughts?

Glad to have purchased the Y.E.S. from D&H, and hope the Yamaha shops don't give me grief for having accessories installed - way to easy for many shops to dismiss a warranty claim with a wave of the hand if they see a fuse block - no matter how carefully installed or how many trouble free miles it's gone.

 

[Geezer]

While they were in there checking your valves they had to push all those wires and connectors on top of the engine out of the way. Could be that they stretched one of the wires enough to loosen it in the connector. You'll have to lift the tank and remove the heat shield and T-bar to get at them all, but it might be worth your time to inspect everything.

Ionbeam posted a procedure not too long ago for testing the regulator.

 

[Bionic Pelvis]

Check your stator and reg/rec wires for exposed wire, evidence of heat damage, pinching, etc. Stators and reg/recs don't tend to fail while sitting around for six weeks (although stranger things HAVE happened...). Any charging system wires that might be grounding out or shorting could cause the symptoms you describe. You may also want to check the ECM connector just to be sure that no pins have been damaged. And don't totally write off your main ground - I'd inspect that closely as well.

 

[SkooterG]

Go get a cheap RadioShack voltmeter and start checking voltages. You need actual numbers, not colors.

Yours is an 07, so perhaps the corroded 'spider' ground block that folks have been having issues with?

You really need to check your charging system output, as all indications are that is where the problem is.

 

[blakebird]

Go get a cheap RadioShack voltmeter and start checking voltages. You need actual numbers, not colors.
Yours is an 07, so perhaps the corroded 'spider' ground block that folks have been having issues with?

You really need to check your charging system output, as all indications are that is where the problem is.

I have a multimeter.... but we checked voltages while the bike was sitting on a corner across town.

When we went back and picked up the new battery, the tech brought his meter back with him, and we checked the charging voltage on the old battery, which had "recovered" enough from sitting a half hour to start the bike.

Those voltages were low, at 3,000rpm and idle, and very low when sitting with engine off.

Installing the new battery saw the voltages return to normal numbers - though we were not able to load test and check current, so the charging system could not be checked adequately.

I read the corroded 'spider' thread, and almost posted this there.

I'm going to set up a visit to the Yamaha shop and have the charging system checked there under warranty, and will refer to the 'spider' harness grounding issue - after I print out and read up a bit more.

Has Yamaha issued any TSB's on the spider grounding issue?

 

[3dogs]

I have a multimeter.... but we checked voltages while the bike was sitting on a corner across town.

When we went back and picked up the new battery, the tech brought his meter back with him, and we checked the charging voltage on the old battery, which had "recovered" enough from sitting a half hour to start the bike.

Those voltages were low, at 3,000rpm and idle, and very low when sitting with engine off.

It would help us help you alot more if you gave us voltage numbers instead of "normal' or "low!"

 

[blakebird]

re: voltages - I don't recall the exact values, but they were in the norm with the new battery and sub-par with the old battery. I've been doing this motorcycle thing since the late 60's, so I know what the ranges should be. As far as the monitor goes, it specifies a voltage range for each of the displayed colors/flashing colors, so when it's flashing red - it's below 10v. That's enough for me to know the battery won't last long....and I feel pretty fortunate to have the monitor there - or I'd be riding along unwary of impending footwork...

The ranges we saw with the multitester were in the range of ~14.4 v charging at about 3k rpms for the new battery, and the old battery was in the low 12v range. Sitting with engine off, the old battery was in the 11v range, and the new battery in the 12.8v area. The new battery looked to be the solution, though a load test could not be performed.

That is a moot point though, when you consider that on Sunday's ride it went to a < 10v condition (flashing red on the Backoff monitor) whenever a slight load was applied. The battery was clearly not the issue, there's something else going on.

Today I took the bike back to the shop that did the work, giving them a crack at double checking their work for any wires or connections they may have knocked loose, etc. I told them that I'd be taking it to a Yamaha shop to have the charging system checked - and anything that they might have done that caused Yamaha to deny a warranty claim would leave me no choice but to have them fix at their cost. They of course, said "sure, we'll have another look". They are a very reputable place, or I wouldn't have gone there....so I am sure they'll do their best to make sure they either aren't at fault, or will make it right if they are. I'm a pussycat customer, but this also puts me in a tough spot.

If it is just a Yamaha issue and a huge coincidence - fine. I just don't want to be left holding the bag. For a bike to go 27,000 absolutely trouble free miles, then after they work on it I have electrical issues....is more than a coincidence IMO.

Starting the bike up today to ride it to the shop (40 miles north), the monitor went to red straightaway unless I fed 2k rpms. Once running down the road it was ok, but the slightest load of a brake light or turn signal put it into a discharge condition. I was able to get there with no major issues, but I don't want to have to ride it far again. If they discover nothing they've done could be the cause, I will take it to the Yamaha shop. I'm not checking anything...that's what warranties are for. If it was out of warranty....it would be apart right now and I'd be doing it myself at my expense.

I do need to have a talk with the main service guy at my usual shop....and get a sense for how they feel about properly installed accessories. Are they on my side (and please, inspect my work all you want) or will they frown on customer added accessories and lean towards denying a warranty claim - no matter that they were installed a year ago and have gone 27k miles without issue.

That's why I plan to arm myself with as much info about the spider harness ground dealio.

 

[RadioHowie]

Wow...good explanation. I think your description of your voltage monitor going "red" under the slightest load certainly points to one of two things....there's something wrong with your charging system, or with your monitor.

But seriously, as far as the charging system goes, a tiny load like a turn signal or brake light activation wouldn't cause a current draw spike that (I think) would affect the output or your stator. I can't imagine it's SO on the verge of failure that a tap on the brakes, putting a grand total of 42 watts worth of additional load on the charging system, would cause the stator output to drop that much that fast. Is a failing stator THAT sensitive? Ionbeam, where are you?

BUT I would think a current draw above and beyond what's needed by the motor running, the headlights, ECU, the coil and fuel injection, might have an effect on a failing voltage regulator. That's where I'd look first, based on your descriptions.

The more electronically expertised might chime in soon with more opinion based on your latest post.

 

[blakebird]

BUT I would think a current draw above and beyond what's needed by the motor running, the headlights, ECU, the coil and fuel injection, might have an effect on a failing voltage regulator. That's where I'd look first, based on your descriptions.

It's taking a day or so for all the bits to gel in my mind a little - the disappointment after dropping significant coin on a service and suspension work, then having troubles on the way home after not having the bike for six weeks....was noticeable.

Your post points out something I hadn't grasped fully yet....that such a small additional load would trigger the monitor to go yellow (11-12v) or solid red (10-11v). When the cooling fans came on in traffic, there was nothing to do but watch a flashing red light.

I wasn't surprised on Sunday's ride, when hitting both PIAA's did it (maybe a little surprised it did it at 3,500 rpm), but that's a big hit compared to a turn signal.

Does sort of narrow down the likely suspects I guess - though electrical stuff isn't my troubleshooting strongpoint.

 

[Zorlac]

I'd buy a cheap DVM from harbor freight for $3, duct tape it to a tankbag with its leads going DIRECTLY to the battery terminals, even if I had to lop off the plastic test probes to get its wires under the battery screws and then go for a ride.

I'm dubious of a blinky light monitor till I see some hard numbers right at the battery terminals.

 

[blakebird]

I'd buy a cheap DVM from harbor freight for $3, duct tape it to a tankbag with its leads going DIRECTLY to the battery terminals, even if I had to lop off the plastic test probes to get its wires under the battery screws and then go for a ride.I'm dubious of a blinky light monitor till I see some hard numbers right at the battery terminals.

Numbers might give you a warm fuzzy, but the Backoff voltage monitor has a known voltage range for each color/flash condition, and it's a visual cue to let you know you have an issue to deal with. For me, that's plenty of warning, and the condition's severity is made apparent by the color. I prefer the simplicity, to each his own. A warning is a warning. Does a flashing red light (<10v) give you that much more information than a digital readout that says "9.9v"?

 

[3dogs]

Many of us on this forum would like to help you with your electrical problem, but without a voltmeter we can make guesses as to what is wrong (just like your dealer did when they replaced the battery). You would think that in working on motorcycles since the 1960s you would have acquired a voltmeter. When you do get one here is how to test your electrical stuff starting with the battery.

Battery Testing

1. Disconnect the fuel pump connector under the tank, or pull the fuse that operates it. This will prevent the engine from starting when you crank it over.

2. Connect your new voltmeter directly to the battery and watch the voltage as you crank the engine over (don’t look at your red/green flashey thing). Make sure the voltmeter is set to read DC volts.

3. If the battery is good the voltage should not drop below 9 volts (with the engine cranking) – usually it will be higher around 10v + (the battery needs to be fully charged for this test)

4. If the battery is junk, the voltage will drop below 9 or even lower. It this is the case there is a problem with one, or more of the battery cells and it should be replaced.

The dealer made the common mistake and replaced the battery without testing it. They should not charge you for their diagnostic stupidity.

Charging System Testing

1. Connect your new voltmeter directly to the battery and start the engine.

2. Battery voltage should be in the 13.5 to 14.5 range (the Yam manual will have specific numbers)

3. With the engine at 4000 rpm the voltage should be about the same (maybe a little higher). Turn your aux lighting – voltage should drop maybe a 1 volt but not 3 or 4 volts.

If voltage drops then either the stator, rectifier of the wires connecting them are bad.

Rectifier Testing

1. Set your volt meter to read AC volts and repeat the step 3 above. AC voltage should not exceed 55mV (millivolts) if it does one or more of the diodes inside the rectifier are bad.

2. You should also check all the wire connected to the rectifier. See the wiring diagram in the Yam manual to see what should be on each wire. In general there should be a wire going to the battery positive, a ground and 3 wire that go to the stator.

Stator Testing

1. Disconnect the stator from the rectifier (should be a 3 wire plug somewhere).

2. Connect your new voltmeter to the stator wires (black lead to one of the 3 and red lead to one of the other wires from the stator. Turn the voltmeter function to read AC volts.

3. Start the engine and watch the voltage. As you rev the engine the AC voltage should increase (see manual for how much). Check the other wire as well. If you don’t see an increase in voltage on each of the 2 wires the stator is junk.

4. You can test the stator coils for a short to ground by using a 12 volt test light. Connect the alligator clip of the test light to ground. Start the engine and touch the pointy end of the test light to each of the 3 stator wires. The test light should not light on any of the wires. If it does, that wire/coil is shorted to ground and the stator is junk.

All of this stuff is explained in detail in my book

Motorcycle Electrical Systems Troubleshooting and Repair

Good luck with your electrical adventure.

 

[FJRScorpion]

Blakebird,

As SkooterG expresses and Zorlac implies you may need to rule out voltage drops (high resistance connections or, less likely, moderately high resistance paths between pos & neg). Suspect the area immediately impacted by your "well-intentioned" mechanics. Sometimes a set of inexperienced or just different eyes is what is needed, so don't understimate the validity of your own observations. My wife has given me some "left field" ideas that actually had merit, like, "Did you check the fuses?", then I find one of them had corroded connections.

Good luck and please keep us informed.

 

[Old Michael]

...All of this stuff is explained in detail in my book...

Well, you sold me, 3dogs!

Ordered it!

Thank you.

 

[Bionic Pelvis]

But seriously, as far as the charging system goes, a tiny load like a turn signal or brake light activation wouldn't cause a current draw spike that (I think) would affect the output or your stator. I can't imagine it's SO on the verge of failure that a tap on the brakes, putting a grand total of 42 watts worth of additional load on the charging system, would cause the stator output to drop that much that fast. Is a failing stator THAT sensitive?

Bear in mind that we're not working with hard and fast numbers here, we're working with colors (and no, I'm not criticizing - I use a red-to-green gauge myself). So when something goes from green to yellow or yellow to red, we could be talking about as little as 0.1v difference. Also, this is happening at or near idle - the time that an ailing charging system is least able to overcome any problems to provide just that little extra power. I have seen FJR stators with one damaged wire giving exactly these symptoms. The stator itself may be working properly, but when the wire moves and is able to short out or the system/bike gets warmed up, the minor charging problem becomes more evident as little things like the turn signal or the fan simply asks too much of the already overloaded component.

Sure, the stator could have failed, but if it was working properly and then somebody touched some stuff and it is no longer working properly, the most logical assumption is that something was touched which caused the problem. That's much more likely to happen with external wiring than an internal component like the stator, but like I said - stranger things have happened. Good Luck!

 

[FJRGuy]

I'd buy a cheap DVM from harbor freight for $3, duct tape it to a tankbag with its leads going DIRECTLY to the battery terminals, even if I had to lop off the plastic test probes to get its wires under the battery screws and then go for a ride.I'm dubious of a blinky light monitor till I see some hard numbers right at the battery terminals.

Numbers might give you a warm fuzzy, but the Backoff voltage monitor has a known voltage range for each color/flash condition, and it's a visual cue to let you know you have an issue to deal with. For me, that's plenty of warning, and the condition's severity is made apparent by the color. I prefer the simplicity, to each his own. A warning is a warning. Does a flashing red light (<10v) give you that much more information than a digital readout that says "9.9v"?

My electrical problem is of a different nature but I've been wanting to put a voltage monitoring device on the bike. I'd never heard of this before but I love the concept. Earlier in the thread I was thinkin I'd ask you what it was but now I don't have to. Thanks for mentioning the name. I think the BackOff voltage monitor will be my next farckle!

 

[FJRGuy]

I'd buy a cheap DVM from harbor freight for $3, duct tape it to a tankbag with its leads going DIRECTLY to the battery terminals, even if I had to lop off the plastic test probes to get its wires under the battery screws and then go for a ride.I'm dubious of a blinky light monitor till I see some hard numbers right at the battery terminals.

Why not, for when more detailed info would be useful, use an existing DVM and put it in the Map pocket of a tank bag? Is it a reasonable thought to connect my DVM to the battery via the Battery Tender cable? Easy to connect without having to access the battery. Seems reasonable to me.

 

[Zorlac]

I'd buy a cheap DVM from harbor freight for $3, duct tape it to a tankbag with its leads going DIRECTLY to the battery terminals, even if I had to lop off the plastic test probes to get its wires under the battery screws and then go for a ride.I'm dubious of a blinky light monitor till I see some hard numbers right at the battery terminals.

Numbers might give you a warm fuzzy, but the Backoff voltage monitor has a known voltage range for each color/flash condition, and it's a visual cue to let you know you have an issue to deal with. For me, that's plenty of warning, and the condition's severity is made apparent by the color. I prefer the simplicity, to each his own. A warning is a warning. Does a flashing red light (<10v) give you that much more information than a digital readout that says "9.9v"?

Ummm, OK, but I don't have a problem.
If you're happy with the range indicator and the way it's wired into the system, then you're golden.


Just making a suggestion, suite yourself. :glare:

 

[blakebird]

Many of us on this forum would like to help you with your electrical problem, but without a voltmeter we can make guesses as to what is wrong (just like your dealer did when they replaced the battery). You would think that in working on motorcycles since the 1960s you would have acquired a voltmeter. When you do get one here is how to test your electrical stuff starting with the battery.[

* My dealer did not replace the battery. The tech from the independent shop that came and got me took me to the battery shop, then we swapped it out.

And we did have his voltmeter when we returned to the bike - and put it on the old battery and the new, pre-swap. The oem battery had recovered enough to light the candle again - but was not taking much of a charge (as I mentioned above).

* I have acquired and used a few multitesters over the years. The one I have now is on my workbench - but we tested voltage in the field when it happened. I did not test the voltage again at the house, I was pretty sure the new battery had done the trick, all signs pointed to it.... until 100 miles down the road it began showing a <10v condition with a fairly minimal draw (high beams and a liner on 2/10.

I returned the bike to the shop that did the service, so they could double check their work had not pinched a wire or knocked something awry.

They called today, and they did a comprehensive search - and came up empty.

I went and picked up the bike today, and rode it directly to the Yamaha shop, where it sits. They got right on it, and the only thing of note was a pinched wire (EFI bundle) in the airbox area.

It was NOT pinched thru the insulation, there was continuity on both sides...and it would have thrown a code. So, really a non-issue related to my problem, but they mentioned it knowing the bike had recently been in a big service (not by them).

I mentioned the ground junction under the left frame spar near the steering head, and it's in the notes of things to check.

It will be interesting to see what shakes out - they called around closing time, they have tested the charging system, R/R, and everything is operating at primo capacity.

The battery appears (to me) to be drawn down slowly but surely.... it took 100 miles for the new battery to show signs of distress, the next day it was much worse.

The first shop put it on a Tender for me at my request after they finished their check - I wanted to make it to the Yamaha shop with no dramas.

So the Yamaha shop got it after it sat fully charged on a Tender, and my guess is it'll take some time and maybe a few dozen miles to show symptoms.