2013 new piston cylinder wall design. Better or just cheaper?

[bob61]

Should I feel like Yamaha went from a dress shirt to a cheap T shirt? What good is this sleeveless, or plated cylinder wall that's new for 2013? What was wrong with the old design? The engine was great, why did they have to change it? Anyone know if this new design will last the miles (and miles) the old engine was good for? Want a generation 3, but do I need to wait and see if this plated cylinder wall is as good as the original?

 

[ionbeam]

Ten years ago (2003 for the math challenged) Yamaha released the YZF-R6 with linerless (sleeveless) cylinders and had no problems with it. Yamaha bloviates:

In order to reduce the resistance of the piston in motion, a new type of cylinder has been adopted which eliminates the cylinder sleeve and applies plating directly to the inner wall of a die-cast cylinder for what is called a "direct-plated cylinder." Elimination of the sleeve enables outstanding heat dissipation characteristics, good strength balance and a more precise cylinder design. What's more, increasing the strength of the land that holds the rings, optimizing the thickness of the top ring and revising the ring tension all contribute to more stable piston movement. All this helped in achieving a more consistent gas seal and excellent oil-consumption characteristics.

Furthermore, the new crankcase design with enlarged passages between the cylinders reduces fluctuation in air volume due to the pumping action of the pistons, thus reducing pumping-related horsepower loss. This helps produce to outstanding response characteristics. Horsepower loss has also been reduced by various design measures like optimizing the crank balance to reduce the load on the crank journal.

Since Yamaha has had experience with this kind of plating I can't see them putting a reliability liability in the FJR's otherwise bulletproof engine.

 

[petey]

Yes sleeveless cilynder engines have been around for a some time, Motor Goose, IIRC had them back in the 70's. Also Outboards had them for at least 20 years.

 

[SLK50]

Some cylinder plating ( I'm thinking Nikasil ) is so wear resistant it take thousands of miles to truly bed the rings.

 

[wheatonFJR]

If this is an unchanged design...why are they advertising it like it is a new design?

Or are they?

 

[ionbeam]

If this is an unchanged design...why are they advertising it like it is a new design?
Or are they?

The previous design used a cylinder liner that was coated with some kind of ceramic material that was just a bit harder than diamonds Pressed in or shrunk in liners create a bimetallic interface which results in some thermal and mechanical problems. It is at its worst in a wet sleeve design which needs a thicker liner than a dry sleeve liner.

The FJR's engine uses a very short skirt piston and only 2 compression rings and 1 oil control ring, the unsleeved bore will help this work better. Also, I would guess that Yamaha will cut back the block at the bottom of the stroke to help equalize pressure in the block when the piston is traveling downward. I know that the FJR's engine is prone to sticking compression rings, I wonder if it will help prevent this.

 

[wheatonFJR]

Thanks.

 

[SouthernCruizer]

All of this technology comes from race designed and race proven technology. If you think this stuff is downgrading, maybe you should find a 70's UJM bike and be done with all this new fangled crap. LOL

 

[Bungie]

Thanks.

^-- This guy has no idea what Alan just said.

 

[Fred W]

If this is an unchanged design...why are they advertising it like it is a new design?
Or are they?

The previous design used a cylinder liner that was coated with some kind of ceramic material that was just a bit harder than diamonds

Are you sure about that? Because that isn't what Yamaha was saying all the way back in 2002 when thye first released the FJR1300 and put out the "Orientation Guide". It says:

This kind of infers there are no pressed in sleeves, only a ceramic coating of the bores in the 1 piece block.

In the 2013 marketing spiel they do indicate that the "new" direct plating system eliminates the need for cylinder sleeves, which infers they were used there previously, but they also lied about changing the gear ratios in the exact same marketing puffery, so who knows.

 

[wheatonFJR]

Thanks.

^-- This guy has no idea what Alan just said.

True...but I was thanking him for answering the question. That fact that my head was spinning made me no less grateful. Quite frankly, I just wanted to know if the 2013 was different or not. He said it was different...and I can understand that.

 

[ionbeam]

Are you sure about that? Because that isn't what Yamaha was saying all the way back in 2002 when thye first released the FJR1300 and put out the "Orientation Guide". It says:

This kind of infers there are no pressed in sleeves, only a ceramic coating of the bores in the 1 piece block.

In the 2013 marketing spiel they do indicate that the "new" direct plating system eliminates the need for cylinder sleeves, which infers they were used there previously, but they also lied about changing the gear ratios in the exact same marketing puffery, so who knows.

I'm pretty sure that when I was looking at the piston crowns with the cylinder head on a work bench that the cylinders had liner rings around them. It was more than a week ago so I could be wrong...

 

[Fred W]

You've probably had the best look at it compared most of us (unfortunately). I remember seeing a ridge around the cylinder but not whether it is of a different material.

Was the new direct plating cheaper to manufacture than the prior ceramic coating? Most assuredly so.

Is it better? That remains to be seen, but I do not recall too many flaws with the old ones.

Cost reduction would be the motivator to move in that direction. And I seriously doubt they would have made that change if it wasn't cheaper since there was no need to "fix" the old system.

 

[Spud]

All of this technology comes from race designed and race proven technology. If you think this stuff is downgrading, maybe you should find a 70's UJM bike and be done with all this new fangled crap. LOL

Just because they change it doesn't mean it's better. Sometimes they find a new way to make it cheap less expensive to manufacture (cough, Gen III forks, cough...)

 

[Fred W]

Some people just accept the marketing spiel more readily than others...

 

[flstffxe]

Are you sure about that? Because that isn't what Yamaha was saying all the way back in 2002 when thye first released the FJR1300 and put out the "Orientation Guide". It says:

This kind of infers there are no pressed in sleeves, only a ceramic coating of the bores in the 1 piece block.

In the 2013 marketing spiel they do indicate that the "new" direct plating system eliminates the need for cylinder sleeves, which infers they were used there previously, but they also lied about changing the gear ratios in the exact same marketing puffery, so who knows.

I'm pretty sure that when I was looking at the piston crowns with the cylinder head on a work bench that the cylinders had liner rings around them. It was more than a week ago so I could be wrong...

The liner could also be cast in place when the aluminium block is cast.

Some sleeves will have rings/grooves/steps on the outside. The aluminium is poured into the casting to create the jug/block around this cylinder sleeve. The sleeve is effectively locked into place by the rings/grooves/steps. Unlike a pressed in sleeve it can't drop or migrate in the block/cylinder.

Could still be considered a one piece block even though it has cylinder liners.

 

[Geezer]

I don't remember where I got the idea, but I always believed that there was no sleeve in the FJR engines from the beginning. I guess it doesn't matter because they have proven to be very tough and reliable. If they did have sleeves and now do not, then I wonder if the alloy sleeves were made from is the same alloy as the block.

 

[Fred W]

Generally, the reason for using cylinder sleeves is to allow the use of some harder, more durable material (like steel or iron) in the bores, but not have to suffer the weight of an all iron block. To insert sleeves and then ceramic coat them is kind of redundant. Why would you bother doing that?

 

[dcarver]

Gen 2, 2006