AE clutch fluid change & bleed problem

[dunedude]

I used a Mity Vac to try to suck the old fluid out but the seal at the bleed valve was poor. May have introduced air. Took off the slave cylinder and manually bled by hand. Several fills and bleeds later I'm not getting any air bubbles. So far so good,

Start the bike and get Shift code 26. After several key cycles and getting it started in neutral all seams fine but shift into 1st and the bike lunges forward and stalls (with front brake held firmly).

So I'm not getting any slippage of the clutch while in 1st gear at idle. Not much slippage anyway.

I read on here that it may take numerous N-1st cycles to get any air out of the clutch.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

2007 AE 66k miles. 1st clutch fluid change - not too dirty, golden not black.

Gary

 

[HJHFJR]

One trick I used is to put some blue Loctite on the exposed threads and let it work it way down the threads a little bit and let it harden. The Loctite will seal the threads and prevent air from entering using the mighty vac. You don't need a lot of Loctite just a little but be patient and let it dry before you try bleeding the clutch slave cylinder again. If you have more time you can go to the Speed Bleeder web site and order the sealant that they use on the threads of their Speed bleeders.

The Loctite will work if you don't get too impatient.

 

[Geezer]

Oops, you said AE. Sorry, can't help.

 

[ionbeam]

No need to remove the slave cylinder to bleed it the old fashioned way...open it and squeeze the clutch lever. Then...release the clutch lever. Repeat 5 or 10 times...

Um, I believe his AE is missing the clutch lever. I also believe that to complete the bleed job he must now access the bleed port which the FSM asks to have the swing arm (or some such ridiculous thing) removed to access the port. A couple of clever people said that they could access the bolt with out removing the big parts. I think that removing the slave cylinder was the kiss of death in this process. Someone with real AE experience will be along with the full details, I'm sure.

I also agree that the tiny bubbles were caused by air being pulled in around the bleeder threads which is not a problem.

 

[dunedude]

I guess I need to learn how to access the Clutch Bleed Port at the rear of the engine, and what to do to it.

Thanks for any and all assistance.

 

[Fred W]

Alright... couple of things to clear up.

First one is that there really isn't a need to flush the clutch fluid on such a short time basis. Brakes, yes. Clutch no. The reason the brakes need such a short cycle is the fluid is hygroscopic and absorbs water out of the air. The water will boil in your brake system due to the high heat during use and cause brake fade. Your clutch doesn't get hot so any absorbed water isn't such a big deal. The amount of corrosion that the absorbed water could create is negligible. It's absorbed water and doesn't separate.

Second is when bleeding with a vacuum bleeder you do often get air bubbles in the stream that you can see, That doesn't necessarily mean that any air is going back into the hydraulic system though. As long as you maintain a good vacuum on the nipple the entire time that you have it cracked open, all leaked air will be sucked right out with the fluid. You are actually more apt to leak air into the system using the "old fashioned" technique.

Third, just take the bleed nipple right off (have a friend stick a finger over the hole to minimize fluid draining and mess) and wrap it with a couple of turns of teflon tape. Be very careful not to get any tape over the bleed holes, just on the threads. Now when you thread it back on you can pull a good vacuum with no air leakage. When you close the bleeder the beveled end seals off the fluid from the threads anyway, so there is no hazard of getting teflon in the hydraulic system.

 

[dunedude]

No need to remove the slave cylinder to bleed it the old fashioned way...open it and squeeze the clutch lever. Then...release the clutch lever. Repeat 5 or 10 times...

Um, I believe his AE is missing the clutch lever. I also believe that to complete the bleed job he must now access the bleed port which the FSM asks to have the swing arm (or some such ridiculous thing) removed to access the port. A couple of clever people said that they could access the bolt with out removing the big parts. I think that removing the slave cylinder was the kiss of death in this process. Someone with real AE experience will be along with the full details, I'm sure.

I also agree that the tiny bubbles were caused by air being pulled in around the bleeder threads which is not a problem.

With the Shift Code 26, I think maybe by removing the slave cylinder I introduced air somewhere else that the bleed port may remove. I think the fluid from reservoir to slave is free of air, but I'm not positive.

 

[wyowanderer]

Been thru this exact thing om my AE a couple months ago. After a 2600 mile road trip bike started lunging violently when taking off in first and sh_26 code was rampant. I decided to bleed clutch system to see if this would help. Long story short I wasnt able to bleed system using the techniques other AE owners say work (cycling ignition, pumping slave cylinder). I ended up introducing plenty of air into the system to the point other error codes were popping up and bike wouldn't even start. I started to tackle the swing arm removal process but it got overwhelming for me. Buttoned bike back up and took it to a dealer in Colorado. Got bike back 1 month later (working) to the tune of $800...damn. Besides doing the swingarm removal to bleed the clutch they also replaced a bad shift angle sensor (that stupid little part alone was $280). I don't believe that sensor was causing my initial problems though. Either I or dealer fried the sensor during the left footpeg/shifter removal process. I hope to God I don't have to deal with that crap again for anytime soon, if ever again. The mechanic who worked on my bike recommended I absolutely don't change the fluid again, unless it needs it. He recommended I buy one of those brake fluid testers for $20 and only change it if needed. For what its worth.

 

[HJHFJR]

+1 to what Fred W said.

If you take your time and use something to seal the threads of the bleed screw you will get a much better vacuum at the bled port and get more fluid to flow. One of the issues with the Mighty Vac is the small container used to catch the fluid. Another trick is to make a larger container out of a quart mason jar or similar container making sure the tube inside the jar is below the fluid level. With a larger container you can achieve a longer flow period thus preventing backflow into the slave cylinder as you flow fluid through the clutch slave cylinder. Small bubbles in the fluid are ok as long as the fluid is flowing fast enough to keep them out of the slave cylinder and you shut the bled valve while fluid is being sucked out under vacuum..

The sensor Wyowanderer is referring to is under the footrest bracket. There is a bolt that attaches the sensor which is located on the outside of the bracket. It you turn that bolt it rotates the sensor internals and destroys the sensor. Don't ask me how I know.

Take you time and try bleeding the slave cylinder again before you resort to removing the swing arm to get to the bolt of the clutch motor that allows manual bleeding.

 

[HJHFJR]

Based on your initial post, the clutch was working fine until you attempted to bleed the clutch system, correct? After you saw bubbles did you run the bike to see if would function normally before you removed the slave cylinder? The two variables you introduced to the problem are, (!) air in the system, and (2) removal of the slave cylinder. We have been concentrating on air in the system, but did you remove anything else attached to the slave cylinder, like the clutch push rod? Were the two dowel pins located on the upper right and bottom bolts to center the slave cylinder still installed?

As you are aware, shift-26 refers to abnormal clutch movement upon start-up and the FSM references air in the system as the problem, however, if for some reason the slave cylinder is not installed correctly that now may be the problem.

The parts diagram of the slave cylinder looks simple enough, but since I have not taken mine off I am not familiar with what comes off under it, if anything.

 

[dunedude]

Yes, the clutch was fine before, never any codes. No, didn't run it before removing the slave. Yes, the push rod came out, thus I think allowing air to get in. Yes, the dowel pins are there and the slave fits back together good.

Thanks for your time and comments.

 

[08FJRSteve]

You may need to replace the hose going to the slave cylinder.

Here's my story... I don't know how relevent it is to the AE, but I am having trouble shifting from neutral to 1st on my '08 A model, without grinding it into gear (more than the usual clunk). I checked the fluid and it was nasty, so I decided to flush the system with new. During bleeding there didn't seem to be much fluid being pushed out of the bleed port (using conventional bleed methods) so I decided to rebuild the master cylinder. This helped with fluid flow during the bleed, but didn't fix my problem. My next step was to remove the slave cylinder, which except for the hose connection is exactly the same as the AE model (per the service manual diagram). If you go here and disassemble the slave cylinder to clean it up, don't tear the seal. The SM shows to replace it with new, but it isn't available for purchase from Yamaha (should have checked on that before I tried to remove it). You have to replace the slave cylinder, a $100 item to replace a $5 seal. After more research (several hours now) on the subject I came across someone having the same problem. He ended up replacing the hose and it fixed it. If you decide to replace the hose, go with a stainless steel braided hose. They're better than OEM and much cheaper.

 

[HJHFJR]

Based on your statement "Yes, the push rod came out, thus I think allowing air to get in" what are you actually referring to? Are you referring to item 24 on the parts diagram or the piston of the slave cylinder?

 

[dunedude]

#24 on the parts diagram runs through the clutch plates- that rod is pushed by the slave's piston and looks like it goes through an o-ring, which I imagine keeps pressure in/out ???

 

[HJHFJR]

The o-ring I think you are referring to is an oil seal and keeps engine oil from coming into the slave cylinder area. The clutch hydraulic fluid is contained by the slave cylinder piston seal and as long as you did not remove the slave cylinder piston any air in the system was introduced during the bleeding process at the bleed screw. The only other possibility for the shift-26 code is the small ball located at the opposite end of the clutch push rod. If you removed the push rod and the ball fell out unnoticed, I believe it would cause the abnormal movement code, shift-26, you are getting as the clutch mechanism could not disengage the clutch because of the extra travel needed by the slave cylinder.

I have bleed the hydraulic clutch fluid in my AE every two years using the Mighty Vac using a larger fluid container and even with bubbles coming through the tube never got air in the system. I am not sure I can offer any more suggestions, but keeps us informed of your progress on resolving this issue.

.

 

[dunedude]

I didn't open the slave cylinder, and the piston stayed in place.

Yes, the ball dropping down makes sense. I didn't remove the rod, but the slave drug it out a bit when I removed that.

Think that would make it leap into 1st gear with no normal slippage at idle?

Well, It's going into service on Tuesday. Thanks for the info, I'll let you know what they find.

 

[dunedude]

If the little ball fell off the end of the rod where do you think it landed?

I would think it would be held in place by something like a small cup?

It's usually the llittle things that cause so much grief.

 

[HJHFJR]

if you didn't pull the rod all the way out the ball should still be in there. The parts diagram doesn't give enough detail to determine if the ball can fall out of its cup and be bypassed by the rod. The rod assembly is the same for both A's and AE's so maybe someone with more knowledge of how the clutch rod is installed maybe can answer the question. The FSM states that to bleed the clutch you first use the Mighty Vac to displace the old fluid, then use the bolt on the clutch motor assembly to manually engage and disengage the clutch to remove any residual bubbles. If there is air in the hydraulics, you will get the shift-26 code and if for some reason the ball is not in the proper position I would suspect the same code. Wish I could offer more but I am in unknown territory concerning how the clutch rod is assembled in relationship to the ball at its end. Hopefully the dealer can offer some insight to the issue.

 

[dunedude]

I got the bike back from the dealer yesterday. They removed the swingarm and bleed the clutch sucessfully. $334 Ouch! I'm certainly not going to do that again. See Fred W's note in this thread on why it's not needed as often as brake lines. Makes sense to me.

"First one is that there really isn't a need to flush the clutch fluid on such a short time basis. Brakes, yes. Clutch no. The reason the brakes need such a short cycle is the fluid is hygroscopic and absorbs water out of the air. The water will boil in your brake system due to the high heat during use and cause brake fade. Your clutch doesn't get hot so any absorbed water isn't such a big deal. The amount of corrosion that the absorbed water could create is negligible. It's absorbed water and doesn't separate."

Thanks for all your help though.