anyone come frm an ST1300 to an FJR?
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GreyGoose
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Heres an "ever so brief" synopsis of the situation:
I'm currently on a fjr 2006 coming off an st1300. I would have to say that both bikes have there pluses and minuses (depending on rider tastes). Heres the highlights:
1. the ST is a pig compared to the FJR. The St feels much lighter than it actually is, but its still really heavy compared to how the FJR feels (even though the wet weight difference is only about 50lbs). i almost forgot how big this difference is untill i got to do a comparison side by side.
2. The ST puts out more heat than the FJR. This topic always get blasted. I came off an st1100, and compared to it, the st13 is flat out rediculous in this department. Now dont get me wrong, the FJR (even with all the new heat fixes), is not as cool running as the st1100 i had, but its a huge improvement over the older FJR's and the St1300.
3. The Stock ST13 has a more relaxed seating position for the long haul. The fjr is a more sporting position. Some people like that, others dont. I prefer a more relaxed position, so i updated my FJR with risers and a device that moves my bars back.
4. Engine: FJR is a flat out rocket compared to the ST13. But, the ST13 has more than enough power for all but the insane. Theres no doubt that the FJR is a rocket ship. but it does come with a price. There is a noticable vibration through the bars and pegs which starts around 4500 rpm's (appox. 85 mph) on the FJR. Vibration is not a word in the ST1300 v4 dictionary. FJR followers claim this can be eliminated with a particular type of Throttle body sync and foam grips. I have installed "grip puppies" and found some relief, but it's definitly still there. It tends to be a non issue due to the fact that when your traveling at those types of speeds, a little vibration is the least of your concerns. but I think its definitly worth the mention for this blog.
5. Looks: I like the looks of both bikes with the bags on. the FJR looks alot better than the st with the bags off. Most of the Sport touring folks i know, never take the bags off (including me). Overall, my vote still goes to the fJR is this department.
6. Handling: I aint touching this. Its all about the rider. Both bikes handle great. i will say that the ST did have some high speed wobble. the FJR is rock solid all the way to insane zone.
7. Build Quality: you will not find two better built machines
8. Seat height. I was really happy when they announced that the st13 seat height was going to be less than the st11, but the difference was minimal. With a corbin installed, my seat height on my fjr is 29 inches.
9. Riding position: As we all know, the riding position is more forward on the FJR. Some like it, some dont. Its rider preference. But there is a caviat here. The bars on the FJR are at somewhat strange angle. i'm not quite sure how to explain it, but the complaints arent centered around how far forward the rider is, but on what this angle does to our wrists. Wrist pain has been a popular topic on the FJR site. The bar adjustments (forward and back) dont seem to have any bearing on this complaint. Bar risers (or the new Triple clamp that heli has designed for the bike) greatly reduce or eliminate this issue. I've never experienced anything quite like it. Usually the more forward position of sport bikes has effected my shoulder areas, not my wrists. I've eliminated the problem with the heli T-clamp and risers, But , once again, its worth mentioning.
10. Wind protection: The St13 stock has better wind protection than the stock FJR. Given that the St13 is wider and has a larger windscreen, i would expect that. Windscreens are a funny topic. Once again rider preference is all over the board. Some FJR owners want smaller screens, others want larger screens. Whats worth mentioning is that many FJR owners do not like the 'stock screen". they claim its noisy and causing buffetting. Theres some great after market screens available that people are using. I didnt have any issues with my st13 stock screen and dont recall it being much of a topic of discussion on st13 board.
11. Hard bags: The hardbags on both these machines are about the same size and both will accomadate a full face helmet. I like the looks of the FJR (were not talking about on or off the bike....just by themselves) bag better than i do the ST's. Some of the articles i've read state that the shape of the ST's bags (smaller towards the back) make them a little less usable than other types of hard bags. I did not find this to be the case with my st13. I could easily fit a laptop in the st's bags. The FJR bags on the other hand have a very cool shape, but they come with a price. Due to there shape, flat (non flexible) items such as laptops can be a problem. I've been able to work around it, but its definitly worth mentioning. i also liked the way the st's bags were divided. its about half and half configuration allowing you to store clothing item in either side (main compartment or the lid). The FJR bags are cut more in a 75 / 25 configuration, which makes it hard to store things in the lid of the case.
12. Heat: This is such a bizarre topic cause it tends to deal with what you've ridden in the past. I've never experiened a heat "issue" on any motorcycle i've ridden in the past 30 years (except the st1300 and FJR). So when i started getting cooked, i was pretty damn sensative to it. If your background is on a bike that puts off little to no heat (like my old st1100), you will think the 06 FJR runs hot. If you've just gotten off an old Vmax, you wont think twice about any "heat issues". As i stated before, the st1300 was just ridiculously hot. The difference is that the heat coming off the 06 FJR is very warm, while the heat coming off the st13 is flat out uncomfortable. The heat on the 06 FJR is also much more noticable as the windscreen is adjusted up. The higher up the screen, the more heat seems to get transmitted to the rider. With the screen in its starting position, I would say that yamaha did an outstanding job of reducing the amount of heat transmitted to the rider. As the screen comes up (and the tempuratures are 74 degrees or above), you start getting some pretty warm air (but very tolerable) on your shins and inner thighs. Its more noticable in city driving, but not much of an issue on the highway. This makes alot of sense since The yamaha upgrades are dependent upon airflow. The more airflow, the better there designed fixes work. I didnt know where to begin fixing the st1300's heat. i had heat on my ankles, shins, calves, inner thighs, and family jewels. I could "cool the jewels' quite a bit by keeping the gas tank full (which negated the benefits of that monster gas tank). ST13 would produce Hot relentless heat when the tempuratures outside reached 78 degrees and didnt matter if your in the city or the highway. I actually feel heat sooner on the FJR (74 degrees), but not that hot uncomfortable st13 heat. On hot humid days, driving around the city, i expect to be a little hot. But once i get out on the highway, i expect things to cool down. The st13 was relentless...The 06 FJR fixes work as designed. My plan is to get a larger shield to increase my wind protection while the shields in its lowest position (where the designed heat fixes seem to work there best). That way i get reduced heat coupled with less noise. Bottom line: The 06 heat fixes really work. but remember, you sitting on a 145 horsepower rocket. Its gonna get warm. I also got the chance to ride an 04 FJR and found it too be much hotter (but still better than the st13) than my 06. The guy i swapped with (pappy) agreed wholeheartadly (and is currently looking to sell his 04 for an 06).
This subject really got "my panties in a bunch" when honda refused to recognize the issue. Its truly a statement from honda about how they feel about there sport touring members. I'd make a nice wager that if this problem was happening on a gold wing, bikes would be getting recalled. The st1300 will get a make over soon (2009-2010), i'd bet 10 to 1 odds they'll be touting some new system that "increases rider comfort by decreaseing the amount of heat transmitted to the rider". We can then hopefully put that famous phrase "What heat problem!!!" to rest......
Heat and weight were my pitfalls on the st1300. "Out of the box" configuration is my pitfall on the FJR. I had to do some farkling to get the bike to what i thought should have come out of the box. I never had to do that with any of my hondas. I couldnt do anything about the st13 heat (My bike flat our broiled me and i dont have any faith in the "heat blanket" the st guys are talking about...its a design flaw gentlemen!! (and i expect honda will fix the issue like yamaha did in a later model)) or weight on the St13. I'm able to make corrections to my issues with the FJR. FJR owners tend to be tweakers. I'm amazed at the information on the FJR board.
I'm very interested in seeing the next generation of ST. The new BMW and FJR have really taken this sport touring thing to a new level. Honda has a good product but needs to step back up to the plate.
GreyGoose
I'm currently on a fjr 2006 coming off an st1300. I would have to say that both bikes have there pluses and minuses (depending on rider tastes). Heres the highlights:
1. the ST is a pig compared to the FJR. The St feels much lighter than it actually is, but its still really heavy compared to how the FJR feels (even though the wet weight difference is only about 50lbs). i almost forgot how big this difference is untill i got to do a comparison side by side.
2. The ST puts out more heat than the FJR. This topic always get blasted. I came off an st1100, and compared to it, the st13 is flat out rediculous in this department. Now dont get me wrong, the FJR (even with all the new heat fixes), is not as cool running as the st1100 i had, but its a huge improvement over the older FJR's and the St1300.
3. The Stock ST13 has a more relaxed seating position for the long haul. The fjr is a more sporting position. Some people like that, others dont. I prefer a more relaxed position, so i updated my FJR with risers and a device that moves my bars back.
4. Engine: FJR is a flat out rocket compared to the ST13. But, the ST13 has more than enough power for all but the insane. Theres no doubt that the FJR is a rocket ship. but it does come with a price. There is a noticable vibration through the bars and pegs which starts around 4500 rpm's (appox. 85 mph) on the FJR. Vibration is not a word in the ST1300 v4 dictionary. FJR followers claim this can be eliminated with a particular type of Throttle body sync and foam grips. I have installed "grip puppies" and found some relief, but it's definitly still there. It tends to be a non issue due to the fact that when your traveling at those types of speeds, a little vibration is the least of your concerns. but I think its definitly worth the mention for this blog.
5. Looks: I like the looks of both bikes with the bags on. the FJR looks alot better than the st with the bags off. Most of the Sport touring folks i know, never take the bags off (including me). Overall, my vote still goes to the fJR is this department.
6. Handling: I aint touching this. Its all about the rider. Both bikes handle great. i will say that the ST did have some high speed wobble. the FJR is rock solid all the way to insane zone.
7. Build Quality: you will not find two better built machines
8. Seat height. I was really happy when they announced that the st13 seat height was going to be less than the st11, but the difference was minimal. With a corbin installed, my seat height on my fjr is 29 inches.
9. Riding position: As we all know, the riding position is more forward on the FJR. Some like it, some dont. Its rider preference. But there is a caviat here. The bars on the FJR are at somewhat strange angle. i'm not quite sure how to explain it, but the complaints arent centered around how far forward the rider is, but on what this angle does to our wrists. Wrist pain has been a popular topic on the FJR site. The bar adjustments (forward and back) dont seem to have any bearing on this complaint. Bar risers (or the new Triple clamp that heli has designed for the bike) greatly reduce or eliminate this issue. I've never experienced anything quite like it. Usually the more forward position of sport bikes has effected my shoulder areas, not my wrists. I've eliminated the problem with the heli T-clamp and risers, But , once again, its worth mentioning.
10. Wind protection: The St13 stock has better wind protection than the stock FJR. Given that the St13 is wider and has a larger windscreen, i would expect that. Windscreens are a funny topic. Once again rider preference is all over the board. Some FJR owners want smaller screens, others want larger screens. Whats worth mentioning is that many FJR owners do not like the 'stock screen". they claim its noisy and causing buffetting. Theres some great after market screens available that people are using. I didnt have any issues with my st13 stock screen and dont recall it being much of a topic of discussion on st13 board.
11. Hard bags: The hardbags on both these machines are about the same size and both will accomadate a full face helmet. I like the looks of the FJR (were not talking about on or off the bike....just by themselves) bag better than i do the ST's. Some of the articles i've read state that the shape of the ST's bags (smaller towards the back) make them a little less usable than other types of hard bags. I did not find this to be the case with my st13. I could easily fit a laptop in the st's bags. The FJR bags on the other hand have a very cool shape, but they come with a price. Due to there shape, flat (non flexible) items such as laptops can be a problem. I've been able to work around it, but its definitly worth mentioning. i also liked the way the st's bags were divided. its about half and half configuration allowing you to store clothing item in either side (main compartment or the lid). The FJR bags are cut more in a 75 / 25 configuration, which makes it hard to store things in the lid of the case.
12. Heat: This is such a bizarre topic cause it tends to deal with what you've ridden in the past. I've never experiened a heat "issue" on any motorcycle i've ridden in the past 30 years (except the st1300 and FJR). So when i started getting cooked, i was pretty damn sensative to it. If your background is on a bike that puts off little to no heat (like my old st1100), you will think the 06 FJR runs hot. If you've just gotten off an old Vmax, you wont think twice about any "heat issues". As i stated before, the st1300 was just ridiculously hot. The difference is that the heat coming off the 06 FJR is very warm, while the heat coming off the st13 is flat out uncomfortable. The heat on the 06 FJR is also much more noticable as the windscreen is adjusted up. The higher up the screen, the more heat seems to get transmitted to the rider. With the screen in its starting position, I would say that yamaha did an outstanding job of reducing the amount of heat transmitted to the rider. As the screen comes up (and the tempuratures are 74 degrees or above), you start getting some pretty warm air (but very tolerable) on your shins and inner thighs. Its more noticable in city driving, but not much of an issue on the highway. This makes alot of sense since The yamaha upgrades are dependent upon airflow. The more airflow, the better there designed fixes work. I didnt know where to begin fixing the st1300's heat. i had heat on my ankles, shins, calves, inner thighs, and family jewels. I could "cool the jewels' quite a bit by keeping the gas tank full (which negated the benefits of that monster gas tank). ST13 would produce Hot relentless heat when the tempuratures outside reached 78 degrees and didnt matter if your in the city or the highway. I actually feel heat sooner on the FJR (74 degrees), but not that hot uncomfortable st13 heat. On hot humid days, driving around the city, i expect to be a little hot. But once i get out on the highway, i expect things to cool down. The st13 was relentless...The 06 FJR fixes work as designed. My plan is to get a larger shield to increase my wind protection while the shields in its lowest position (where the designed heat fixes seem to work there best). That way i get reduced heat coupled with less noise. Bottom line: The 06 heat fixes really work. but remember, you sitting on a 145 horsepower rocket. Its gonna get warm. I also got the chance to ride an 04 FJR and found it too be much hotter (but still better than the st13) than my 06. The guy i swapped with (pappy) agreed wholeheartadly (and is currently looking to sell his 04 for an 06).
This subject really got "my panties in a bunch" when honda refused to recognize the issue. Its truly a statement from honda about how they feel about there sport touring members. I'd make a nice wager that if this problem was happening on a gold wing, bikes would be getting recalled. The st1300 will get a make over soon (2009-2010), i'd bet 10 to 1 odds they'll be touting some new system that "increases rider comfort by decreaseing the amount of heat transmitted to the rider". We can then hopefully put that famous phrase "What heat problem!!!" to rest......
Heat and weight were my pitfalls on the st1300. "Out of the box" configuration is my pitfall on the FJR. I had to do some farkling to get the bike to what i thought should have come out of the box. I never had to do that with any of my hondas. I couldnt do anything about the st13 heat (My bike flat our broiled me and i dont have any faith in the "heat blanket" the st guys are talking about...its a design flaw gentlemen!! (and i expect honda will fix the issue like yamaha did in a later model)) or weight on the St13. I'm able to make corrections to my issues with the FJR. FJR owners tend to be tweakers. I'm amazed at the information on the FJR board.
I'm very interested in seeing the next generation of ST. The new BMW and FJR have really taken this sport touring thing to a new level. Honda has a good product but needs to step back up to the plate.
GreyGoose
GreyGoose
That's an awesome overview of the differences. For me, who lives in Las Vegas, heat is such a crucial issue that I couldn't possibly buy a bike that doesn't have effective airflow management. Isn't it funny: BMWs do some things extremely well, such as airflow management, heat, creature comforts, etc, but they do other things very badly, such as flukey brakes, weird fuelling, lowish power, pricing, maintenance, etc. Honda seem to make a finely honed machine, but often fail to heed the words of their customers. Yamaha has at least reworked their FJR to address many of the issues and complaints of the people who pay big bucks to keep them afloat.
I noticed on an '05 FJR that heat was a big problem for me. I also found the riding position a little strange, particularly as you say with the set-up of the handlebars. Ergos can be fixed by change of risers, pegs, seat, etc, but it takes a frickin' genius to fix airflow & heat issues.
I am seriously looking at an '07 FJR after being mildly disappointed by an R1200RT (too little power, too many vibes) - I get a real buzz out of winding out an F1-inspired inline four winding out to nine grand, and feeling your eyeballs rolling back in your sockets...
I'm starting to ramble now, so I'll quit. Thanks for your informative post!!
Cheers
Quint
That's an awesome overview of the differences. For me, who lives in Las Vegas, heat is such a crucial issue that I couldn't possibly buy a bike that doesn't have effective airflow management. Isn't it funny: BMWs do some things extremely well, such as airflow management, heat, creature comforts, etc, but they do other things very badly, such as flukey brakes, weird fuelling, lowish power, pricing, maintenance, etc. Honda seem to make a finely honed machine, but often fail to heed the words of their customers. Yamaha has at least reworked their FJR to address many of the issues and complaints of the people who pay big bucks to keep them afloat.
I noticed on an '05 FJR that heat was a big problem for me. I also found the riding position a little strange, particularly as you say with the set-up of the handlebars. Ergos can be fixed by change of risers, pegs, seat, etc, but it takes a frickin' genius to fix airflow & heat issues.
I am seriously looking at an '07 FJR after being mildly disappointed by an R1200RT (too little power, too many vibes) - I get a real buzz out of winding out an F1-inspired inline four winding out to nine grand, and feeling your eyeballs rolling back in your sockets...
I'm starting to ramble now, so I'll quit. Thanks for your informative post!!
Cheers
Quint
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designeraccd
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As mentioned this has been discussed, however: in a nutshell my '06 FJR solved the "crotch pot cookinn"
problem that my '03 had at anything over 80F. OTOH, my '04 ST 1300 was perfectly acceptable in lo 90s with matching humidity WITH the added side pcs (Honda kit) that deflects lotsa engine heat.
Both are comfy and plenty fast, but in a roll-on the ST is a boat anchor compared to the FJR. IMO, my '04 ST's suspension was superior to my '03 FJR, but NOT to my '06 which has been changed along with the wheelbase (swingarm is longer, too). I consider the ride and handling on my '06 to be excellent for this type of bike, and...yes..I do MOVE on her, especially thru 2 lane twistys. Now if it were only Spring.......
The FJR happily burns regular and less of it than the premium eating ST...that adds up to $$$. For my $$$$$: FJR, but she does need a better saddle given what she is designed to do. On my '03 I had the optional (Corbin built) Yamaha saddle and a Sargent on my ST 1300. DFO
problem that my '03 had at anything over 80F. OTOH, my '04 ST 1300 was perfectly acceptable in lo 90s with matching humidity WITH the added side pcs (Honda kit) that deflects lotsa engine heat.
Both are comfy and plenty fast, but in a roll-on the ST is a boat anchor compared to the FJR. IMO, my '04 ST's suspension was superior to my '03 FJR, but NOT to my '06 which has been changed along with the wheelbase (swingarm is longer, too). I consider the ride and handling on my '06 to be excellent for this type of bike, and...yes..I do MOVE on her, especially thru 2 lane twistys. Now if it were only Spring.......
The FJR happily burns regular and less of it than the premium eating ST...that adds up to $$$. For my $$$$$: FJR, but she does need a better saddle given what she is designed to do. On my '03 I had the optional (Corbin built) Yamaha saddle and a Sargent on my ST 1300. DFO
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GreyGoose
Well-known member
OTOH, my '04 ST 1300 was perfectly acceptable in lo 90s with matching humidity WITH the added side pcs (Honda kit) that deflects lotsa engine heat.
i also installed the added side pcs that deflect the engine heat on my st1300. it simply moved the heat from my shins to my calves. that wasnt much of a fix for me for the leg heat. We wont even start talking about the "family jewel" heat or the heat around the ankle area or the heat on the inner thighs. There are some things that are simply (inadvertantly) built in to some bikes. There the things you cant get rid of. On the st1300, its engine heat and beastly weight. On the FJR, its that inline 4 vibration you get at certain rpm's. I loved the v4 (even the way it sounded believe it or not), but the comfort price was just too high. I can work around some bar and peg vibration on the days i decide to cruise around at 90mph. I could not work around ungodly heat. Honda is getting really close. Its a shame they didnt truely step up to the plate when they had the chance.
Think about this. They were basically the originators of the japenese sport touring market with the release of the st1100. They basically owned that title for 10 years untill the FJR came out. The kawasaki concours was never any real competition to it. In those 10 dominating years, honda made one minor change in 96 to st1100. St1100 owners were screaming about more power (with a smaller version of the v4), less weight, and better styling. Honda did accomplish some of this feat with the release of the st13, but in such a marginal way its almost funny. If they would have made the changes they did in the face of no competition, it may have flown. But the competition was building lighter, faster, better looking, and comfortable motorcycles. Thats what really made this a "half baked" attempt. I've said this before...the st13 was a statement from honda. The sport touring market is just not big enough for them care all that much about. I've talked to honda representatives at honda sponsored meets that have echoed those exact words. I will say this though, i truely believe that hondas next shot at this (hopefully soon) will raise a few of our eyebrows on the FJR and BMW camps. if not, i'm giving them way too much credit......
Goose out..
i also installed the added side pcs that deflect the engine heat on my st1300. it simply moved the heat from my shins to my calves. that wasnt much of a fix for me for the leg heat. We wont even start talking about the "family jewel" heat or the heat around the ankle area or the heat on the inner thighs. There are some things that are simply (inadvertantly) built in to some bikes. There the things you cant get rid of. On the st1300, its engine heat and beastly weight. On the FJR, its that inline 4 vibration you get at certain rpm's. I loved the v4 (even the way it sounded believe it or not), but the comfort price was just too high. I can work around some bar and peg vibration on the days i decide to cruise around at 90mph. I could not work around ungodly heat. Honda is getting really close. Its a shame they didnt truely step up to the plate when they had the chance.
Think about this. They were basically the originators of the japenese sport touring market with the release of the st1100. They basically owned that title for 10 years untill the FJR came out. The kawasaki concours was never any real competition to it. In those 10 dominating years, honda made one minor change in 96 to st1100. St1100 owners were screaming about more power (with a smaller version of the v4), less weight, and better styling. Honda did accomplish some of this feat with the release of the st13, but in such a marginal way its almost funny. If they would have made the changes they did in the face of no competition, it may have flown. But the competition was building lighter, faster, better looking, and comfortable motorcycles. Thats what really made this a "half baked" attempt. I've said this before...the st13 was a statement from honda. The sport touring market is just not big enough for them care all that much about. I've talked to honda representatives at honda sponsored meets that have echoed those exact words. I will say this though, i truely believe that hondas next shot at this (hopefully soon) will raise a few of our eyebrows on the FJR and BMW camps. if not, i'm giving them way too much credit......
Goose out..
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