Bike won't crank with sidestand down

[Sunnyorlando]

As recommended, I'm posting a standalone thread rather tagging to another.

I have an '03 - starts runs just fine.
However, 2 issues:
- Neutral light not working
- Won't start with sidestand down
So far:
> checked bulb = good
> Sidetand down, clutch in - fuel pump primes when pressing start button, but no crank.
> Sidestand up, clutch in, fuel pump primes when pressing start and engine starts.
> Then - bike in N (rear tire visually not spinning), move sidestand down, kills engine. This tests the sidetand switch as working - in my experience.
> I also hear the starter cutoff relay clicking when pulling clutch and moving sidestand up & down. I believe this also confirms clutch and sidestand circuit is talking to the cutoff relay.
> I think I'm left with N switch - the circuit doesn't know it's in N. Lilly bad switch.
So, I've been looking for the wires to the N switch so I can test to see if in fact it's working when switching between N and 1 or 2. The only thing I find in the wiring diagram shows a light blue to the starter cut off relay from the N switch, and a lime green on the other side of the starter cutoff relay to the panel N indicator.
This is the only place I can see N switch wiring.
> If this is the case, is it as simple as testing this light blue to GND when pacing it in gear? Right now it's open - no GND.
I don't know if the N switch is NC or NO, or if it's supposed to 0 Ohm to GND, or something else.
I have not found a test procedure for this other for the circuit as a whole, but that does not test individual components.
Suggestions/direction?
Thanks...

 

[Bounce]

Reads like your sidestand is working correctly.

The sidestand lockout is standard and mandated by the government on bikes newer than a certain year. It's a safety feature that only allows starting in neutral if the side stand is down (just the clutch in won't over ride).

 

[Sunnyorlando]

Thanks Bounce, I agree that it appears to be working correctly. And I know it's there by design and I was not questioning it...I'm trying to restore the functionality that the prev owner messed up. The issue appears to be with the N circuit and how it runs through the windshield motor circuit which the prev owner removed in his attempt to make this a naked FJR.
I have some suggestions that i'll be working on today.

Reads like your sidestand is working correctly.

The sidestand lockout is standard and mandated by the government on bikes newer than a certain year. It's a safety feature that only allows starting in neutral if the side stand is down (just the clutch in won't over ride).

 

[Pjotr]

As recommended, I'm posting a standalone thread rather tagging to another.

I have an '03 - starts runs just fine.
However, 2 issues:
- Neutral light not working
- Won't start with sidestand down
So far:
> checked bulb = good
> Sidetand down, clutch in - fuel pump primes when pressing start button, but no crank.
> Sidestand up, clutch in, fuel pump primes when pressing start and engine starts.
> Then - bike in N (rear tire visually not spinning), move sidestand down, kills engine. This tests the sidetand switch as working - in my experience.
> I also hear the starter cutoff relay clicking when pulling clutch and moving sidestand up & down. I believe this also confirms clutch and sidestand circuit is talking to the cutoff relay.
> I think I'm left with N switch - the circuit doesn't know it's in N. Lilly bad switch.
So, I've been looking for the wires to the N switch so I can test to see if in fact it's working when switching between N and 1 or 2. The only thing I find in the wiring diagram shows a light blue to the starter cut off relay from the N switch, and a lime green on the other side of the starter cutoff relay to the panel N indicator.
This is the only place I can see N switch wiring.
> If this is the case, is it as simple as testing this light blue to GND when pacing it in gear? Right now it's open - no GND.
I don't know if the N switch is NC or NO, or if it's supposed to 0 Ohm to GND, or something else.
I have not found a test procedure for this other for the circuit as a whole, but that does not test individual components.
Suggestions/direction?
Thanks...

If you look on the forum for “neutral light not working” you’ll find several ways to e.g test the switch on gearbox etc. But most likely you already went through them. One was a post from Roskean.

 

[torch]

The sidestand lockout is standard and mandated by the government on bikes newer than a certain year.

1980

 

[Sunnyorlando]

Update - i have replaced the start cutoff relay which I now believe was not working correctly.
Progess:
> Bike will not start in gear without pulling the clutch. This passes this test.
> Bike starts in N w/out pulling the clutch. This seems consistent with some of these safety cutoff designs - some bikes work like this.
What seems to be missing -
> Sidetand appear to not have any effect, up or down, the bike starts under the same scenarios. The sidetand switch itslef is working as I can measure it at the connection. But it does not seem to be passing the status to the cutoff relay.
> Bike starts in gear with clutch in, sidestand down, does not die if you let clutch out with sidestand down. This is inconsistent with how it should work.

I'm looking for validation on this to see if in fact this is the way it works on this bike. Anyone?

Thanks

 

[RossKean]

Sounds to me like your sidestand switch isn't working correctly. Should be able to check using the diag functions or even with an ohmmeter.

 

[Sunnyorlando]

Yep, the DiaG is saying its not working, though I remember (i think) checking this early on. By maybe my memory is fooling me. Today it shows no change with the onboard DiaG and an Ohm meter when actuating it.
So now looking for a sidestand switch 5JW-82566-00.
Anyone have one available?

 

[RossKean]

Check the wires going to it - they are pretty vulnerable, A spritz with WD40 might clean up the button. I'm not sure if the FJR sidestand switch can be taken apart to clean properly since I haven't had to do it. Not even sure contact cleaner would make it inside...

 

[Sunnyorlando]

Already took it off the bike and it's completely sealed. Wires look good. I've sprayed the plunger with WD and will see what happens tomorrow.
I see many that look identical to it, but the numbering is slightly different - mine if 5JW-82566 vs 5JJ-, 5KW- or 5**- and so on. I wonder if there's really a difference.

 

[torch]

Interesting. Usually the Gen 1 SS switch fails the other way -- bike thinks the sidestand is down and shuts off as soon as it is put in gear. The roadside fix is to cut the wires and twist them together to get you home.

Sounds like yours is shorted, not open.

 

[RossKean]

Sounds like yours is shorted, not open.

Plunger stuck, maybe? Is the switch (kickstand up) normally open or normally closed?
Twisting the wires together would make it the same as being shorted (closed).

 

[Sunnyorlando]

Exactly, when I Ohm it, it's shorted. So in this case the 'safety' position for this circuit is normally open. This one is 'closed', so it's shorted.

 

[Sunnyorlando]

Plunger stuck, maybe? Is the switch (kickstand up) normally open or normally closed?
Twisting the wires together would make it the same as being shorted (closed).

That's correct, the wires would need to be cut and separated for the circuit to be open, 'sidestand up'.

 

[RossKean]

That's correct, the wires would need to be cut and separated for the circuit to be open, 'sidestand up'.

Edited reply (brain fogged):
I assume if you disconnect the switch, you get the normal "stand-up" interlock function? i.e. starts only in neutral.

 

[Sunnyorlando]

Edited reply (brain fogged):
I assume if you disconnect the switch, you get the normal "stand-up" interlock function? i.e. starts only in neutral.

No, it's the other way.
This bad switch is internally shorted, it tells the relay that the sidetand is up all the time and that's why it starts with sidestand down under any condition, because it doesn't know.
So this is a 'N/C' circuit for normal operation - run. Shorted means sidestand up.
Then when OPEN (or unplugged), it knows that the stand is down.
When the stand is UP, the circuit closes and allows the bike to start - and that's where this switch is stuck in, closed circuit.

 

[RossKean]

This bad switch is internally shorted, it tells the relay that the sidetand is up all the time and that's why it starts with sidestand down under any condition, because it doesn't know.

That's why I said if you disconnect the switch - meaning leaving it open rather than shorted. As Torch said, you can always short the wires going to the switch to get you going in the event of an open switch... I think we are saying the same but with a minor misunderstanding.
No luck with freeing the plunger with a squirt of WD40?

 

[Sunnyorlando]

That's why I said if you disconnect the switch - meaning leaving it open rather than shorted. As Torch said, you can always short the wires going to the switch to get you going in the event of an open switch... I think we are saying the same but with a minor misunderstanding.
No luck with freeing the plunger with a squirt of WD40?

No luck with WD-40.
Yep, I guess we are saying the same thing, but shorting the connection is for an open switch condition and the bike will not go thinking the stand is down and die on clutch release.
As for starting, the bike will actually start under either condition with clutch pulled. It's then a matter of safety if you are not paying attention and you take off with the sidestand down with a shorted switch.
I ordered a replacement switch, should be here over the weekend.

Thanks....

 

[Sunnyorlando]

Update to my '03 project FJR.
I have corrected the safety cut off circuit issue, and the bike is now working as expected.
I ended up having to replace the neutral switch, the side stand switch, and the safety cut off relay.
Also because of how the system is somehow interconnected through the windshield motor which is not there anymore, I have to independently power the neutral light so it would work correctly.
At this point the bike is running and everything is working as expected as to how the cutoff circuit is supposed to work.

Question to others with a similar year FJR.
For the instrument panel indicators for the oil and check engine light, they come on briefly for a light check when the bike is powered up, but then they both turn off. My experience is that these lights usually stay on until oil pressure turns off the oi press light, and the check engine light goes off when the engine is running.
I'd like to know if the behavior that I am seen is as expected for this bike. Anyone have one to check or remember if that's how this one is supposed to work?

Thanks!

 

[RossKean]

FJR has an oil LEVEL sensor, not an oil pressure sensor...