Bike won't hold idle

[Constant Mesh]

It would appear that the camshaft sprockets have 38 teeth. So being off by one cog is a 9.5 degree timing error.

One can assume the error was seen on both camshafts. If only one that would be very bad.

What is the definition of a "cold" engine (<100 degF)? You ride your bike to the dealer and ask them to check your valve clearances. How long does the engine have to cool down before its cold?

 

[git-r-dan]

Just stumbled on this thread and am glad to know of a hopeful solution to the same idle/stalling problem. Took it to the dealer with the cam chain tensioner replaced along with the switch recall about a month and a half ago. When I got the bike back, noticed the same thing going on. Last weekend, took it back where they did a check on the throttle body sync and everything else they figured could be causing the stalling to no avail. They called Yamaha this week and Yamaha told them to check an O2 sensor and replace. I just called them with the information on this thread so we're scheduled to get it back in and do the repair. Thanks, Topspeed and others for the help although it's not actually fixed yet.

git-r-dan :beach:

 

[Bionic Pelvis]

I had the identical situation when I had my ticker "fixed". I picked up the bike, immediately noticed unusual cam chain noises & it refused to idle when warm. Brought it right back to the dealership & was told that, even though they'd just had my bike for 4 months to fix the ticking, I would have to go to the end of the line if I wanted this "new" complaint assessed. They said that according to the factory, the problem was probably out-of-sync injectors which was unrelated to the original repair. Another month-long wait for shoddy work? Thanks anyhow.

I tore it down and found that the tech had installed my cam chain intake-side first, meaning all the slop was off the exhaust side and the tensioner wasn't able to do anything about it. Because of this, it has slipped a tooth and started acting up. Luckily I was able to get everything fixed before there was any permanent damage.

I took pictures of the improperly installed parts & brought them to the dealership. They told me, as close to verbatim as I call recall now, that I was one of the chat room whiners with too much time on their hands and they were not impressed with my faking problems just to make trouble for them. I hadn't asked for anything, I just wanted them to see what was done wrong, and they actually claimed with a straight face that I did the PITA job of tearing down a newly rebuild top end just to make it seem like they make a mistake. I wasn't a big chat room whiner before that, but I had a lot to whine about after that...

 

[RadioHowie]

I had the identical situation when I had my ticker "fixed". I picked up the bike, immediately noticed unusual cam chain noises & it refused to idle when warm. Brought it right back to the dealership & was told that, even though they'd just had my bike for 4 months to fix the ticking, I would have to go to the end of the line if I wanted this "new" complaint assessed. They said that according to the factory, the problem was probably out-of-sync injectors which was unrelated to the original repair. Another month-long wait for shoddy work? Thanks anyhow.
I tore it down and found that the tech had installed my cam chain intake-side first, meaning all the slop was off the exhaust side and the tensioner wasn't able to do anything about it. Because of this, it has slipped a tooth and started acting up. Luckily I was able to get everything fixed before there was any permanent damage.

I took pictures of the improperly installed parts & brought them to the dealership. They told me, as close to verbatim as I call recall now, that I was one of the chat room whiners with too much time on their hands and they were not impressed with my faking problems just to make trouble for them. I hadn't asked for anything, I just wanted them to see what was done wrong, and they actually claimed with a straight face that I did the PITA job of tearing down a newly rebuild top end just to make it seem like they make a mistake. I wasn't a big chat room whiner before that, but I had a lot to whine about after that...

:dribble: :blink: :dribble: :blink: :dribble: :blink: :dribble: :blink:

And folks might wonder why I'm doing all my own "Frankenbike" work. Hell, I can screw things up for free! Don't have to pay no servicemonkey shop rate to do it for me.

 

[Rogue]

And folks might wonder why I'm doing all my own "Frankenbike" work. Hell, I can screw things up for free! Don't have to pay no servicemonkey shop rate to do it for me.

Hey,

Get back to work on that thing!

 

[RadioHowie]

And folks might wonder why I'm doing all my own "Frankenbike" work. Hell, I can screw things up for free! Don't have to pay no servicemonkey shop rate to do it for me.

Hey,

Get back to work on that thing!

Waitin' on parts.....quit naggin' me, ******!!

 

[03HiYoSilver]

And folks might wonder why I'm doing all my own "Frankenbike" work. Hell, I can screw things up for free! Don't have to pay no servicemonkey shop rate to do it for me.

Hey,

Get back to work on that thing!

Waitin' on parts.....quit naggin' me, ******!!

That's odd, spoken just like a Yamaha Authorized Dealer.

 

[RadioHowie]

And folks might wonder why I'm doing all my own "Frankenbike" work. Hell, I can screw things up for free! Don't have to pay no servicemonkey shop rate to do it for me.

Hey,

Get back to work on that thing!

Waitin' on parts.....quit naggin' me, ******!!

That's odd, spoken just like a Yamaha Authorized Dealer.

Now THAT'S just LOW!

 

[dsmack]

... but TRUE! :evil:

Keep up the good work 'Owie!

Don

 

[Bionic Pelvis]

:dribble: :blink: :dribble: :blink: :dribble: :blink: :dribble: :blink:
And folks might wonder why I'm doing all my own "Frankenbike" work. Hell, I can screw things up for free! Don't have to pay no servicemonkey shop rate to do it for me.

At least then I know who to kick when things get screwed up. I spent more time & money fixing the tick fix than it would have cost to do it myself to begin with! Lesson learned...

 

[git-r-dan]

Well, well, well... life is good. Took the bike back to the dealer. Mechanic opens it up and the mark is just a micro tad to the left of top dead on. He shows his boss who says its OK as is. He tells me that the R1's are like that as they are not exactly on the mark. Anyway, he expects that if he moves a tooth over it shouldn't line straight up but tries it anyway only to find out it made the mark exactly even with the other one. Guess it's a different circumference-ratio thing. Took the trip home and wow, what a difference. He said it was off on the exhaust stroke. Seems like a pretty easy mistake to make by the mechanic and maybe should have some kind of user-friendly comment in the manual by Yamaha. Anyway, needing one of those happy face guys inserted here: :yahoo: Big thanks there, Roy.

git-r-dan :beach:

 

[RadioHowie]

Topspeed, git-r-dan and Bionic Pelvis....three "one tooth off" owners after DEALER valve adjusts or head work!!! All in one freakin' thread!?!? :dribble: :dribble:

Jeezus in a Jeep.....what the hell is happening to dealer service? Are they hiring kindergartners for their shops?

That your bikes didn't kill you with valve sharpnel, all three of you are fortunate in ways you can not comprehend.

Dayum.

 

[Fred W]

Took the bike back to the dealer. Mechanic opens it up and the mark is just a micro tad to the left of top dead on. He shows his boss who says its OK as is. He tells me that the R1's are like that as they are not exactly on the mark. Anyway, he expects that if he moves a tooth over it shouldn't line straight up but tries it anyway only to find out it made the mark exactly even with the other one.

Unbelievable!

And to think, these guys are pros... :blink:

 

[git-r-dan]

That your bikes didn't kill you with valve sharpnel, all three of you are fortunate in ways you can not comprehend.

Seems like a pretty easy mistake to make by the mechanic and maybe should have some kind of user-friendly comment in the manual by Yamaha.

I trailered it back to the house after the cam chain tensioner was replaced and then, without a test drive, drove it to Mobile, Al with the engine dying at stops until I got the hang of keeping it running. It really didn't run that bad at cruising speed but a huge difference after the fix. That was about 1300 miles, a trip to the big city and then to the dealer for the repair which was a total of about 1800 miles. There was about five or six times it put me in a compromised situation only to be lucky enough the traffic was not bearing down. RH's right about the fact that we are fortunate.

In a lame defense of the mechanics, if it happens to this many, maybe there is a problem with the way Yamaha has made this alignment check. I just don't think they test drive them enough before giving them back. Mine was in the shop for a couple of weeks waiting on the part to come in with no excuse for it not to run good.

 

[Fred W]

Sorry. If I was assembling something and I "can't quite tell" that it's assembled correctly, I would never just assume that it's "good enough". I'd dig into it and figure out a way to tell for sure. Yeah, it may have been tough to tell if it was on the right tooth. Even more reason to look into it further before buttoning it up, IMO. What they did was irresponsible. They should be glad they didn't hurt anyone. Yet.

 

[Constant Mesh]

It's not all that hard to get it right.

It's obviously easier to get it right if you look at the marks on the sprockets. The sprockets are much bigger in diameter than the rightmost cam lobe. So an error is more easily detected when viewing the sprockets.

When I checked the clearances on my FJR three years ago one of the intake valves was a bit tighter than 0.006 inches. All of the other clearances were fine. Jestal recommended that I rotate the cam a bit more and see if the clearance increased at a nearby location. It did. I found a 0.006 clearance with a few degrees of additional rotation. Jestal said that was fine and no changes were necessary.

If you advance this clearance check/adjustment activity to the next level you can do what many Honda car enthusiasts do. They will adjust their intake valves for the minimum acceptable clearance so the valves stay open as long as possible in hopes of maximizing power output. Seems like it would offer only a marginal effect but some do it. Don't know if anyone does this on their FJR?

Honda recommends that my Accord engine have the valve clearances checked first at 110K miles. But when I asked my local service manager about it he recommended not doing it. I asked at another dealer and they also said don't touch it. When Honda changed over to rollers on the cam followers they essentially ended the need for clearance adjustments.

 

[RadioHowie]

In a lame defense of the mechanics, if it happens to this many, maybe there is a problem with the way Yamaha has made this alignment check. I just don't think they test drive them enough before giving them back. Mine was in the shop for a couple of weeks waiting on the part to come in with no excuse for it not to run good.

Dan, you're being WAY too forgiving. You're blaming the parent for making the the child too difficult to work on when the doctor amputates the wrong leg.

Cam timing isn't too difficult to check. It may be too easy to get wrong, but it only takes a flashlight, a 14mm socket and ratchet and someone who gives a **** to make sure it's right. It ain't rocket surgery. It's just competence.

 

[racer]

I just did the valve adjustment myself and it is really hard to be positive you have the cam timing right with the motor in bike since you can not see the timing marks on the exhaust cam. The timing marks are on the outside of the cam sprocket, which is blocked by the frame member. Lining up the dots on the cam shaft with the arrows on the cam shaft caps is hit and miss since it is really hard to tell if they are exactly lined up. Being one cog off, results in less than an eighth of an inch difference in the rotation of the dots.

The only way to be sure the exhaust cam is timed correctly, is to transfer the timing marks on the sprocket to the inside so that you can see the mark is lined up the head and valve cover seam. I marked this with a small file on the inside of the sprocket. Once you do this, it is easy to be sure you have the exhaust cam timed correctly. The intake cam is not a problem, since you can just see the back timing mark on the outside of the sprocket.

 

[chrisflock]

In a lame defense of the mechanics, if it happens to this many, maybe there is a problem with the way Yamaha has made this alignment check. I just don't think they test drive them enough before giving them back. Mine was in the shop for a couple of weeks waiting on the part to come in with no excuse for it not to run good.

Dan, you're being WAY too forgiving. You're blaming the parent for making the the child too difficult to work on when the doctor amputates the wrong leg.

Cam timing isn't too difficult to check. It may be too easy to get wrong, but it only takes a flashlight, a 14mm socket and ratchet and someone who gives a **** to make sure it's right. It ain't rocket surgery. It's just competence.

It may not be rocket surgery, but I have it on good authority that competence is, in fact, brain science.

I remember the fun that I had after rebuilding a DOHC motor, trying to get the dots on the sprockets lined up. It can be a pain to get all 3 marks to line up, especially if you don't get all the slack onto the tensioner side...

But if you take your time and pay attention, it isn't that hard. If you are in a hurry and think something is 'close enough' it probably isn't. Heck, I saw someone once that figured that the dot on one sprocket was one tooth 'low' and the other one tooth 'high' so he figured he was one tooth 'past' alignment, so he turned the crank one tooth 'past' the TDC mark.

Of course, in addition to the fact that one tooth on the crank does not equal one on the cams, he also had the rotation of the engine backwards...

 

[Bionic Pelvis]

Unbelievable!
And to think, these guys are pros... :blink:

To be fair, I'm a "pro" too so I see both sides of this. Strict attention to detail would keep this from happening at all (which is why a lot of guys who used to say "I ain't lettin no girl work on my bike" are now my regular customers), but the reality is that we are all human and sometimes make mistakes.

My problem is with the people/dealerships who 1) Don't bother to do a good enough test ride to find the problem before they send the bike home, or 2) Won't step up and take responsibility when the problem arises.

I say kudos to the tech who stood up to his boss and re-set the cam timing. I wouldn't avoid this dealer; obviously the FJR timing is something that gives a lot of techs trouble for whatever reason. I would happily go there and request the same tech who had enough integrity to keep working until the problem was solved. (Plus maybe ask for some store credit for all the time you wasted getting your bike back down there )