Checking valve clearances on a 2007 with 40,000 miles.

[Dan S]

A year ago I bought my '07 with 35,000 miles on the odo from the original owner.  He told me the fork seals had been replaced and the valve check recently by a dealer.  He seemed sincere, honest and knowledgeable so I'm assuming he got taken by the dealer.  The fork seals have been leaking and the exhaust valve clearances were .23, .23, .27, .30, .36, .25, .33, .20.  FYI exhaust spec is .18mm - .25mm.     So what did the dealer mechanic do?  Use a .18 feeler gauge and check go. nogo and call it good?  The intake valves were all .15 to .16. I know wider clearance is much better than too tight and apparently the engine will run fine for 40,000 miles with an exhaust valve clearance that is 0.10 over the maximum specified so I'm just wondering what others have experienced?      

 

[FJRay]

Fork seal leaks are not uncommon. Most just need a Seal Mate treatment to heal the leak. As far as the valves, Operating a feeler gauge is a matter of feel and not everybody is the same. Before adjusting I would run a couple loads of ring free through it and then check/ adjust as needed. a little carbon buildup will raise hell with clearances.

Its easy to critique other folks work after the fact so I wouldn't say that the previous owner got taken. Either way fix as needed and ride on. unk:

 

[RossKean]

I agree with Ray.  Sealmate for the win with leaky fork seals - especially with low miles.

Remember that valve clearances generally get LESS not greater under normal circumstances. If you are seeing clearances greater than spec (especially exhaust) give the engine the Ringfree enema as Ray mentioned and take the bike for a spirited third gear ride and try again.  Unless someone seriously messed up the last adjustment,  I bet you will be OK.

 

[Dan S]

Thanks.  I've done the Seal mate and found a bit of grit in there but haven't had it out much to see if that did the trick.  And now after adjusting a few of the exhaust valves a bit you have me worried about the carbon build up.  maybe I'll put it back the way it was and try the Ringfree,  hmm,

 

[RossKean]

In over 185,000 miles that I put on my '07 before I sold it, I had to make small adjustments for intake valves two times.  never had to adjust exhaust valves.  

 

[Dan S]

Thanks Ross.  I put the original shims back the way they were.  Then noticed this.  I was so proud of how I checked the cam timing.  It's hard to be sure the timing mark on the cam is aligned with the arrow.  The cam gear has 38 teeth and the mark on the cam is where it's only about 25mm in diameter so if it's off 1 tooth that means the mark is only off by 2 mm. That's not much more than the diameter of the mark.  So I used a black sharpie and scraped a metal ruler across the cams to check they were aligned. Then I noticed it. 

Can you see the major oops in the photo below.

https://imgur.com/Evz67w6

 

[rbentnail]

There are 2 different specs: .15- .22 mm and .18- .25 mm exhaust.  It would be helpful when discussing technical items like this if you would use the units (mm = millimeters).  Your engine, based on the numbers you've given. is out of whack and should be re-checked by someone competent.

I use Pro-X valve shims b/c the come in .025 mm increments instead of the "standard" .05 mm, hence I can re-shim to a number rather than a range.  I also disagree with your statement "I know wider clearance is much better than too tight".  I set my clearances at the lower 1/3 of the range spec, always have.  If your statement had read, "I don't want to go through the trouble of regularly checking and adjusting as necessary my valve clearances so I know wider clearance is much better than too tight" I would agree with it wholeheartedly.  But if this will be a regular maintenance item (like me), smaller clearance = larger valve opening and I adjust my engine that way.  Always have.

Others may not agree but IMHO if you are questioning then check your valves and shim as necessary to get the clearance you desire.  If you don't, this will always be in the back of your mind gnawing at you and stressing you out.  You don't need that stress when you're out on what is supposed to be a vacation weekend 4, 6 or 800 miles from home.

For the poll: Yes I know my clearances are in spec.  No I don't know specifically what each of the shim sizes is.  I determine what shim is needed on a case-by-case basis at each check.  For me, that's about every 3 yrs as I average 10-12 K miles per year.

 

[rbentnail]

Good catch.  I never use those marks, I always check the timing with the timing marks on the crank and camshaft sprockets.  Use a telescopic mirror and a strong flash light.  Picture is in the FSM.  Looking at those holes will NOT tell you if the chain on the crank shaft sprocket is correct.  Time and time and time again we have had threads of running problems after maintenance only to discover the chain skipped one tooth on the crankshaft sprocket.  Taking a shortcut in this causes problems. 

I suggest you also check your chain tensioner- early models were inadequate.  Replace it if needed.  If you have a green or blue dot on it you're good.  If you don't, ordering the part automatically gives you the latest revision.

 

[Dan S]

thanks, this PM work started as just 2 things, replace coolant hoses and the tensioner.  Now it has 14 new hoses and a green dot tensioner and messed up timing to boot .  

 

[Dan S]

There are 2 different specs: .15- .22 mm and .18- .25 mm exhaust.  It would be helpful when discussing technical items like this if you would use the units (mm = millimeters).  Your engine, based on the numbers you've given. is out of whack and should be re-checked by someone competent.

I use Pro-X valve shims b/c the come in .025 mm increments instead of the "standard" .05 mm, hence I can re-shim to a number rather than a range.  I also disagree with your statement "I know wider clearance is much better than too tight".  I set my clearances at the lower 1/3 of the range spec, always have.  If your statement had read, "I don't want to go through the trouble of regularly checking and adjusting as necessary my valve clearances so I know wider clearance is much better than too tight" I would agree with it wholeheartedly.  But if this will be a regular maintenance item (like me), smaller clearance = larger valve opening and I adjust my engine that way.  Always have.

Others may not agree but IMHO if you are questioning then check your valves and shim as necessary to get the clearance you desire.  If you don't, this will always be in the back of your mind gnawing at you and stressing you out.  You don't need that stress when you're out on what is supposed to be a vacation weekend 4, 6 or 800 miles from home.

For the poll: Yes I know my clearances are in spec.  No I don't know specifically what each of the shim sizes is.  I determine what shim is needed on a case-by-case basis at each check.  For me, that's about every 3 yrs as I average 10-12 K miles per year.

So what is your honest opinion of Ray and Ross' comment?  "If you are seeing clearances greater than spec (especially exhaust) give the engine the Ringfree enema as Ray mentioned and take the bike for a spirited third gear ride and try again.  Unless someone seriously messed up the last adjustment,  I bet you will be OK."  because I will not have any piece of mind thinking I increased the shim from a 1.82 to a 1.90 as needed to get the clearance to .20mm and thinking that there might be as much as .16 mm of carbon buildup that could burn off.   

 

[hppants]

I adjust to the loosest 1/3 of the spec.  I'd rather ride it than work on it.  Use a "go, no-go" feeler gage and don't force it.  If one of valve on the cam is out of spec, then I adjust them all to the loosest 1/3 and that usually does it.  But if it's too loose, then I'm adjusting it.  Yammie gives the range for a reason.  I'm not entirely sure I know what the reason is, but it's right there in black and white for everyone to see.  So out of range, either way, and it gets adjusted.

MUCH more importantly, let me offer another educated and experienced opinion on the matter:

Rider more, stress less.

You have arguably one of the MOST reliable motorcycles ever built.  I'm not whistling Dixie here, man.  You'd have to work pretty hard to grenade an FJR.  Your bike is born to run.  And when I say "run", I mean like a spotted ape with a fever!!

So ride more.  And stress less, man....

 

[Mr. BR]

For the poll: Yes I know my clearances are in spec.  No I don't know specifically what each of the shim sizes is.  I determine what shim is needed on a case-by-case basis at each check.  For me, that's about every 3 yrs as I average 10-12 K miles per year.

Yup, that's where I'm at but I'm nowhere near doing your annual mileage :-(.  Bought my '05 with 48K miles and little service history so a valve check gets me 1 tight EX and 1 tight IN on cylinders 1 and 3 respectively.  A few years later at 74K miles, a clearance check had everything good and no adjustments needed (I'm at 79K now).  I had been hearing some ticking and was fully expecting to find at least one or two loose but nope!  I also have a set of Hot Cams (?) shims and I've lent them out to at least 2 others here in CA for their own check.

 

[rbentnail]

So what is your honest opinion of Ray and Ross' comment?  "If you are seeing clearances greater than spec (especially exhaust) give the engine the Ringfree enema as Ray mentioned and take the bike for a spirited third gear ride and try again.  Unless someone seriously messed up the last adjustment,  I bet you will be OK."  because I will not have any piece of mind thinking I increased the shim from a 1.82 to a 1.90 as needed to get the clearance to .20mm and thinking that there might be as much as .16 mm of carbon buildup that could burn off.   

IMO, if I'm seeing clearances greater than spec then I'm diving in to inspect and correct. My brain won't function well while riding knowing I'm intentionally disregarding a needed valve check.

As to the "I'd rather ride it than work on it", I totally get that.  So absolutely, if you feel that way definitely set your clearances to the "1/3 loose end" of the spec.  I'm not a cold weather rider so my bike is parked for several months every year.  I got plenty of time for maintenance and don't mind doing it.  That's why I set mine at the "1/3 tight end" of the spec.

With the 5 (or 6, I forget) valve checks I've done on mine and the several others I've seen at a few tech days, I've never witnessed the need to apply a Ringfree enema.  And IMHO you simply don't have enough miles to warrant it.  OTOH it won't hurt so why not?  But I'm also a guy who often abuses his bike by running high rpm in 2nd gear going up a dirt road in a national forest.  Mine gets regular workouts like that so it seems carbon buildup isn't never an issue.

 

[hppants]

Don't want my prior comment to be confused.  I get that some enjoy working on the bike.  When I'm in the right state of mind (weather is too crappy to ride, and I've got nothing better to do), I don't mind it much.  And I think I understand the rationale behind going to the tightest 1/3 of the range.  Again, you have the range to work with, and even though it might not be detectable (or even measurable), A valve with less clearance might close sooner, and that might (should) make better performance.

I pick the loose 1/3 of the range because as described earlier, my intuition tells me that the valve seat is the weakest link in the chain and will wear first.  When that happens, valve clearance will tighten.  If I'm on the loose 1/3 of the range, then (theoretically), I have more range to work with before I gotta get myself in the right state of mind.

Now - another reason for my choice is to admit my limitations.  I'm not a mechanic, but rather a parts changer.  I'm old enough to know what I don't know.  Picking the loosest 1/3 of the range gives me a little cushion to work with, if I make a mistake (again in theory, loose is better than tight).  And trust me - when it comes to Pants and mechanical things, there is PLENTY of room for a mistake.  Thankfully, the FJR is pretty forgiving.

Oh, and by the way OP.... ride more, stress less.

 

[RossKean]

As it has been mentioned, valve clearances get tighter, not looser as things wear.  If the exhaust valves are greater than the maximum specification, they were wrong from the factory (unlikely), somebody made a mistake when they adjusted them, somebody didn't measure them properly, or something (i.e. carbon) is keeping them from seating fully.  If the valves are not seating properly, a compression and leakdown test will reveal it.  Carbon buildup is far more likely on exhaust valves than intake but I haven't had issues.

 

[art miller]

A year ago I bought my '07 with 35,000 miles on the odo from the original owner.  He told me the fork seals had been replaced and the valve check recently by a dealer.  He seemed sincere, honest and knowledgeable so I'm assuming he got taken by the dealer.  The fork seals have been leaking and the exhaust valve clearances were .23, .23, .27, .30, .36, .25, .33, .20.  FYI exhaust spec is .18mm - .25mm.     So what did the dealer mechanic do?  Use a .18 feeler gauge and check go. nogo and call it good?  The intake valves were all .15 to .16. I know wider clearance is much better than too tight and apparently the engine will run fine for 40,000 miles with an exhaust valve clearance that is 0.10 over the maximum specified so I'm just wondering what others have experienced?      

Regarding fork seals leaking, I have had three FJR's, two 07's and the current 14ES. Sold both 07's with about 35K miles on them. The 14ES has 48K miles and never have I had a fork seal leak on any of the bikes. I do not ride on dirt roads and avoid rain if possible. What I do and I believe it prevented seal leaks is wash the forks carefully after every ride. It is much easier to do on the ES.  I also frequently wax the fork slides.   

 

[Dan S]

Thanks all for your comments. I'd never heard of the carbon build up thing and was pretty doubtful that was the issue so I've been asking around.  A good friend of mine is a long time mechanic and engine machinist and he hadn't heard of it being a problem in auto engines but he says that years ago a regular pre-flight maintenance check for airplane engines included spiking the valves, that is, hitting them with a hammer to knock off the carbon build up. Well,  I just put some techron in the tank of my FJR.     

 

[12tinker]

as far as fork seals, always check for fine scratches and nicks and cleaning out with Seal Mate. Even a hairline scratch will pass oil. You can detect with bright light and a fingernail.

The poor seal always gets blamed and repair shops cash in on it.