Es Model worth the extra money?

[Fred W]

I originally had figured that soft was soft etc. regardless of the spring pre-load chosen but this would likely produce some very unbalanced handling the greater the pre-load. Based on the chart Yamaha appears to have compensated for this, thanks mom. Hope this is true. Good discussion. Thanks Fred.

No problems. It was something I was also understandably curious about.

And as for the veracity of that chart, let's just say it comes on very good authority. You can believe it.

 

[Fred W]

I have located a credible resource, and it seems that my initial perception was correct. Each of the four rear preloads do equate to different damping ranges, though they certainly do seem to overlap.

Sorry, I am not at liberty to reveal from whence this information comes.

Have a gander at this...

[img=[URL="https://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad4/FJWinNH/2014%20FJR1300%20ES/2014ESSuspensionAdjustment.jpg%5D"]https://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad4/FJWinNH/2014%20FJR1300%20ES/2014ESSuspensionAdjustment.jpg][/URL]

After several hundred tests of different settings on different preload settings, I think that chart is pure marketing hype....which is a nice way of saying its crap. The damping adjustment range for any given preload setting is very narrow and while there may be some overlap between the two solo settings and the two 2-up settings, there doesn't seem to be any overlap between solo with luggage and 2-up.

I find the STD-0 on the solo preload gives the most plush ride but I cannot seem to duplicate that setting anywhere on the solo plus luggage preload setting. Likewise, the STD-0 setting on the solo plus luggage preload cannot be duplicated anywhere on the 2-up preload setting. All seat of the pants impressions of course but I can't see any reason to have settings with as much overlap as the chart suggests.

I'm also very skeptical that the fork damping settings change at all except for the base preload settings. If they do, I sure can't feel it but it does seem possible that one could fine turn the fork damping by raising the motor position in the fork cap....which really doesn't seem necessary since the fork damping always feels right.

Really? So you think they went to the bother and expense of installing all the controls and stepper motors on the top of the two fork legs and they aren't actually doing anything?

That is not what I have experienced. Now I don't think that this is the most effective way to have designed these adjustments. For one thing, having the front damping tied to the rear makes very little sense from the standpoint of truly tuning the chassis. But I do think that it changes both the front and rear damping changing from -3 soft to +3 hard in each of the 4 rear preloads.

 

[Redfish Hunter]

MCRIDER007 has repeatedly stated that he feels very little difference in the damping settings on his ES. Yet, Fred W, SkooterG and several others have claimed a very noticeable difference. When I rode the ES on the Demo Ride I was astonished at the amount of difference the damping settings made to the bike and that was just a short ride. Also, I am NOT the best rider to evaluate suspension of any type.

I have to ask MCRIDER007 if you have ridden any other ES FJRs besides your own? Is it possible that there is something wrong with your particular bike? I am certain that if I can tell the difference, you would be able to as well. I know you are far more knowledgeable about suspension in general than I am, that is why I wonder if your bike might have an issue.

 

[MCRIDER007]

I have located a credible resource, and it seems that my initial perception was correct. Each of the four rear preloads do equate to different damping ranges, though they certainly do seem to overlap.

Sorry, I am not at liberty to reveal from whence this information comes.

Have a gander at this...

[img=[URL="https://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad4/FJWinNH/2014%20FJR1300%20ES/2014ESSuspensionAdjustment.jpg%5D"]https://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad4/FJWinNH/2014%20FJR1300%20ES/2014ESSuspensionAdjustment.jpg][/URL]

After several hundred tests of different settings on different preload settings, I think that chart is pure marketing hype....which is a nice way of saying its crap. The damping adjustment range for any given preload setting is very narrow and while there may be some overlap between the two solo settings and the two 2-up settings, there doesn't seem to be any overlap between solo with luggage and 2-up.

I find the STD-0 on the solo preload gives the most plush ride but I cannot seem to duplicate that setting anywhere on the solo plus luggage preload setting. Likewise, the STD-0 setting on the solo plus luggage preload cannot be duplicated anywhere on the 2-up preload setting. All seat of the pants impressions of course but I can't see any reason to have settings with as much overlap as the chart suggests.

I'm also very skeptical that the fork damping settings change at all except for the base preload settings. If they do, I sure can't feel it but it does seem possible that one could fine turn the fork damping by raising the motor position in the fork cap....which really doesn't seem necessary since the fork damping always feels right.

Really? So you think they went to the bother and expense of installing all the controls and stepper motors on the top of the two fork legs and they aren't actually doing anything?
That is not what I have experienced. Now I don't think that this is the most effective way to have designed these adjustments. For one thing, having the front damping tied to the rear makes very little sense from the standpoint of truly tuning the chassis. But I do think that it changes both the front and rear damping changing from -3 soft to +3 hard in each of the 4 rear preloads.

That's not what I said, I said that there may be only 4 different damping settings on the forks, one for each preload. It will be easy to confirm once you do your tests. You can separate one of the caps from the forks, hook it back up to the wiring, and then observe and measure how much the damping rod position changes when you change the damping settings. A conventional fork only changes the position of the tapered adjusting needle by a couple of millimeters at most, I doubt the ES position changes much more than that, and if so there certainly isn't any need for 84 different positions.

I can feel a change in the shock's damping, if I go to Soft-3 the shock seems to run out of rebound damping so I know something is happening. I also find STD-0 seems to always be the best all around damping setting for all of the preload positions so that is a bit more proof that that damping is changing, it just isn't an improvement to what the Yamaha engineers probably decided was the best damping curve and assigned that the STD-0 position.

In answer to RFH's question, no, I have not ridden another ES, there are not a lot of them around to test but when I read the tests/reviews from the pros, those who choose to comment on the damping range (most didn't) stated the damping adjustment range was pretty narrow. I wish someone would break the ECU's code so we would know for certain what was really happening front and back in regard to both rebound and compression damping but that probably is not going to happen as long the system seems to be working well....and it is....the only other ES system that I have ridden that performs as well is the Ducati Multi-Strata's semi-active Skyhook suspension.

Most of the other ES systems (BMW, Ducati, KTM) I have ridden had very noticeable damping changes on the fly. Doesn't mean they were better systems, usually quite the opposite, but there wasn't any doubt which setting I was in. When you change damping on the fly its difficult to determine if the difference in ride is due to the changes in the forks, shock, or both. I don't feel much of a change on the ES even going from Soft-3 to Hard+3 but what I do feel seems to be coming from the shock. Ditto for my 13A, I have never felt the need to adjust the forks for any road surface or load, the forks always seem to be working as well or better than the shock. My upgraded C14 suspension is a little different. Most of the time the forks and shock are in harmony with each other but there are times when the shock doesn't seem to be working as well as the forks and other times the forks seem to be the weak link.

 

[mcatrophy]

I'll add my 2 pennies' worth into this damping discussion.

My UK "AS" has the suspension of the "ES". When I first rode it, I was, to say the least, disappointed with its ride. I posted about my experience here.

When I picked the bike up, the front was harsh, and the front and the back of the bike seemed totally out of kilter with each other. And changing the damping didn't seem to do much.

I was initially running at 39 to 41 in the front, as I've always done with my previous FJRs, and as my dealer had set it. When I dropped it to the Yamaha's recommended 36, it transformed the feel, and the settings make much better sense (I've not yet moved into the "+/-3" stuff).

I'm now running at about 37 or 38, and I'm very happy with it.

To sum up, I found that the feel of the bike is very sensitive to the front tyre pressure, unlike my previous Gen IIs.

So I would suggest ensuring your tyre pressures are sensible before trying your settings.

 

[Greenzilla]

Thanks Fred. I have been playing with both and still looking for the perfect setup between the two. So far for just the wife and I on freeway riding, two up with luggage setting and soft 0 is very plush feeling. Switching to hard +2 on that setting was not bad for light twisties, but still not quite as I remember my gen II after I dialed it in. Of course that was two years ago now. Have not yet had enough one up riding with the different settings to find my perfect compromise to only need to change the damping levels on a ride. May need to change both when the riding gets serious. Looking forward to testing all the possibilities.

Greenzilla - Not sure if you are aware of this but there are 21 potential damping levels (Soft -3 thru +3, Normal -3 thru +3, and Hrad -3 thru +3) for each of the 4 rear preload levels.
There may be some overlap in those ranges, but the soft -3 on the one up preload setting is not the same as the soft -3 on the other three preload settings.

If you keep twiddling around you may find some settings that work for you better than what you've found already. As an aside, you also may not end up wanting to follow the advice of the preload settings of "One up" or "Two up", etc. but rather, just consider them as 4 incremental steps in preload 1 thru 4.

 

[Fred W]

That's not what I said, I said that there may be only 4 different damping settings on the forks, one for each preload.

No, I don't think that is true, but I do understand why you would say that. There is definitely more of a change in damping of the rear shock when you change from Soft to Normal to Hard.

But, I am 100% certain that the front stepper motors are actually changing position when you make changes within a preload. Just try changing the damping without the engine running and you can hear the motors run at each change. They run only very briefly, maybe only a bit over 1 second. I cannot hear the rear stepper motor run but it is buried up at the top of the shock.

Right now I have my three 1-up no bags settings as Soft -3, Normal -0, Hard +3. When I am solo and riding on a severely beat up section of New Hampshire road (of which there are no shortage) I can switch the damping to soft and the front does become considerably more compliant on compression. Then switching back to Normal or Hard will firm the front up a bit and reduce some of the rebound bouncing. Like I said, it does seem that the amount of difference between the settings is pretty small, but present.

For two up riding, I've settled on the two up no bags and Normal - 0 as being just about perfect for the two of us. I think with my wife being small it is not as under-sprung as what some other bigger folks have opined. But I also prefer my suspension on the soft side.

It is possible that there is some build variation between the bikes. I also wonder if it is possible to set the stepper to one extreme (say, 1-up soft -3), remove the motor and then manually index the damping screws one way or the other and then re-install the stepper motor on top, thereby shifting the entire range of that damping adjuster? That does not seem to be covered at all in the FSM, so these are some things we will have to experiment with to determine.

 

[MCRIDER007]

For two up riding, I've settled on the two up no bags and Normal - 0 as being just about perfect for the two of us. I think with my wife being small it is not as under-sprung as what some other bigger folks have opined. But I also prefer my suspension on the soft side.


It is possible that there is some build variation between the bikes. I also wonder if it is possible to set the stepper to one extreme (say, 1-up soft -3), remove the motor and then manually index the damping screws one way or the other and then re-install the stepper motor on top, thereby shifting the entire range of that damping adjuster? That does not seem to be covered at all in the FSM, so these are some things we will have to experiment with to determine.

I don't think the ES is as undersprung as the FSM would suggest. Its difficult to estimate spring weight between bikes using sag measurements unless you have precise data on base preload and the actual spring weight on one bike but I did have 2 out of 3 which I compared the ES to my 08 (which I knew had an 800 lb spring and 10mm of base preload installed on my Wilbers) and it appeared that the ES also has about a 800lb spring. My 13A appeared to have a 780lb spring rate in the soft position and about a 950lb rate in the hard position. These estimates are dependent on the base preload data from the FSM but seem to be pretty consistent with my seat of the pants riding impressions.

I think it will be very easy to change the position of the stepper motors in the front and probably also be possible in the rear using a thin spacer. I am thinking about using a 2mm spacer under the spring to shift the preload positions. Motorcyclist stated that the preload positions increase 2mm, then 4mm, and then 2mm more going from the solo to the 2-up with luggage position and that seems pretty consistent from observing the change at the top of the shock (kind of hard to accurately measure when the shock is installed). Right now I like the steering geometry in the solo plus luggage position but prefer the solo damping curve. Fully loaded, I like the solo plus luggage damping curve but would like a little more preload to keep the steering geometry consistent. An extra 2mm preload from a spring spacer would allow me to have the best of both worlds when riding solo and give less sag when riding 2-up.

I'm looking forward to hearing what you find when you start taking things apart.

 

[101stpathfinder]

To the OP-

I question this too. Another option out there would be to take the money saved with a non ES model and put it into a upgrade such as a Penske

Shock and AK-20 fork cartridges.

The upgrade would give returns on a resale and the difference would surely be noticed!

 

[MCRIDER007]

To the OP-I question this too. Another option out there would be to take the money saved with a non ES model and put it into a upgrade such as a Penske

Shock and AK-20 fork cartridges.

The upgrade would give returns on a resale and the difference would surely be noticed!

That's what I thought when I bought my '13A a year ago and I already had a set of AK-20's waiting to be installed but after riding the '13A back to back with my 08FJR and C14 (both with upgraded suspensions) for a month I couldn't feel enough (or any) difference to justify buying the Penske. I went the other direction.....sold the AK-20s and have never regretted that decision.

 

[AlleyCat]

I tweaked my 2009 suspension to the point where I got it suited for me and my style of riding (agressive). But when I would get the wife on, I didn't touch anything because of the trouble involved - other than the lever (lugging tools and counting clicks etc). With the ES, just remember the settings such as hard +2 and that's it. Not happy, click a button and tweak it. No tools to lug around... To me, money well spent. I love the ES and that cruise control is awesome (so much better than the Kaoko on my 09).

 

[Fred W]

I too had considered going with an A model and upgrading the suspension with aftermarket. After all, it is what I had done before and was happy with the results.

But how much aftermarket can one buy for $1000? Maybe a shock that you would then install yourself, but not that plus improvements in spring and damping in the forks. Maybe the A models have improved to the point where you wouldn't need to upgrade? If so you would have saved yourself a whole grand. But you still wouldn't have the sexy USD forks or the ability to change damping (somewhat) on the fly.

As it is now, the ES suspension is better than my 05's ever was even after installing a Penske shock and GP Suspension fork upgrade. Unless something horrible starts happening to the ES bike suspensions, I suspect that an ES will still be worth more on the used market than an A even with an aftermarket shock added.

 

[Warpdrv]

As it is now, the ES suspension is better than my 05's ever was even after installing a Penske shock and GP Suspension fork upgrade. Unless something horrible starts happening to the ES bike suspensions, I suspect that an ES will still be worth more on the used market than an A even with an aftermarket shock added.

This is exactly what drove me to the ES...... I have had a Wilburs and fork upgrade on my 05 since I bought the bike, even with the group buy it was no cheap date but it dramatically improved the ride, and just had it rebuilt last spring.....

Looking forward to the new model, and $1000 was easy for me to see its value....

Only problem I forsee is the added Maintenance, but I'm sure we'll see lots of guys start working into that soon enough, just hope it'll be something we can tackle on our own with not too much in the failure of parts down the line....

 

[MCRIDER007]

As it is now, the ES suspension is better than my 05's ever was even after installing a Penske shock and GP Suspension fork upgrade. Unless something horrible starts happening to the ES bike suspensions, I suspect that an ES will still be worth more on the used market than an A even with an aftermarket shock added.

I would say the ride and handling is better than your 05 ever was and its due to the longer swing arm and the inverted fork...complemented by some pretty good suspension. Most GEN1 lovers never acknowledged that the GEN2's handled better than the GEN1s off the showroom floor but the GEN2s also handled better than the GEN1s with the same aftermarket suspension, at least that was my experience when I transferred my Wilbers shock and GP Suspension fork upgrade from my 05 to my 08. The inverted fork is just another handling improvement that is mostly overlooked because the riders are too busy playing with the ES. I'm not yet convinced the ES suspension is any better than the A model suspension but the jury will be out until Yamaha puts the inverted fork on the A model so we can have some apples to apples comparisons.

One of my biggest concerns about the ES suspension was that the damping on the shock and fork are so closely linked together and whether it would be possible to keep the (very important) balance between the shock and forks as the oils wear and change at different rates. Its also unlikely that the oils will be changed at the same time and have identical viscosity to the original oil. Hopefully it will be possible to maintain that balance (if necessary) by changing the positions of the fork's stepper motors. Looks easy to do, we will just need some guidance from someone who has figured it out.

 

[BigOgre]

As it is now, the ES suspension is better than my 05's ever was even after installing a Penske shock and GP Suspension fork upgrade. Unless something horrible starts happening to the ES bike suspensions, I suspect that an ES will still be worth more on the used market than an A even with an aftermarket shock added.

This is exactly what drove me to the ES...... I have had a Wilburs and fork upgrade on my 05 since I bought the bike, even with the group buy it was no cheap date but it dramatically improved the ride, and just had it rebuilt last spring.....

Looking forward to the new model, and $1000 was easy for me to see its value....

Only problem I forsee is the added Maintenance, but I'm sure we'll see lots of guys start working into that soon enough, just hope it'll be something we can tackle on our own with not too much in the failure of parts down the line....

Same train of thought here. As someone who's always 1-up, knowing how often I adjust my upgraded suspension, conscious of a good deal cost-wise, and the unknowns of a new product re. maintenance and reliability, I definitely was leaning towards an A when the time comes.

But . . .

The world keeps turning and technology brings progress, no? I can remember not being happy when I could only get auto-locking hubs on my '86 Blazer although at least I could still order the manual transfer case. And I clearly recall my father not wanting power windows or door locks on our old Caprice - just something that's surely going to break and be expensive to repair. Besides what's wrong with rolling down a window anyways? I wonder if my grandfather had any use for automatic transmissions.

There's quite a few bikes going up for sale lately and they're grabbing my attention, just to see what I'm in store for when it comes time. When a non-ABS Gen I comes up it seems even more outdated. I'd bet this same debate went on back when these were new. I wonder if, or how soon, Yamaha might stop producing A models.

Unless an A is "too good to pass up", pretty sure I'll be favoring the ES.

 

[101stpathfinder]

As it is now, the ES suspension is better than my 05's ever was even after installing a Penske shock and GP Suspension fork upgrade. Unless something horrible starts happening to the ES bike suspensions, I suspect that an ES will still be worth more on the used market than an A even with an aftermarket shock added.

I would say the ride and handling is better than your 05 ever was and its due to the longer swing arm and the inverted fork...complemented by some pretty good suspension. Most GEN1 lovers never acknowledged that the GEN2's handled better than the GEN1s off the showroom floor but the GEN2s also handled better than the GEN1s with the same aftermarket suspension, at least that was my experience when I transferred my Wilbers shock and GP Suspension fork upgrade from my 05 to my 08. The inverted fork is just another handling improvement that is mostly overlooked because the riders are too busy playing with the ES. I'm not yet convinced the ES suspension is any better than the A model suspension but the jury will be out until Yamaha puts the inverted fork on the A model so we can have some apples to apples comparisons.

One of my biggest concerns about the ES suspension was that the damping on the shock and fork are so closely linked together and whether it would be possible to keep the (very important) balance between the shock and forks as the oils wear and change at different rates. Its also unlikely that the oils will be changed at the same time and have identical viscosity to the original oil. Hopefully it will be possible to maintain that balance (if necessary) by changing the positions of the fork's stepper motors. Looks easy to do, we will just need some guidance from someone who has figured it out.

I rode a Gen 1('05) with stock for a little more the 100k before upgrading to a Penske and AK-20s. At the same time of upgrading the Gen 1, I purchased a Gen 2 ('08).

The upgrade was a HUGE difference. It made a considerable improvement to the Gen 1.(100k+ since upgrading) Now let me say it … The Gen 2 stock was much better

than the Gen 1 stock, BUT… I will take the Gen 1 with the upgrade over the Gen 2 stock. I can't wait to flip the suspension on the 2 bikes when the '08 becomes my LD bike.

 

[101stpathfinder]

I too had considered going with an A model and upgrading the suspension with aftermarket. After all, it is what I had done before and was happy with the results.
But how much aftermarket can one buy for $1000? Maybe a shock that you would then install yourself, but not that plus improvements in spring and damping in the forks. Maybe the A models have improved to the point where you wouldn't need to upgrade? If so you would have saved yourself a whole grand. But you still wouldn't have the sexy USD forks or the ability to change damping (somewhat) on the fly.

As it is now, the ES suspension is better than my 05's ever was even after installing a Penske shock and GP Suspension fork upgrade. Unless something horrible starts happening to the ES bike suspensions, I suspect that an ES will still be worth more on the used market than an A even with an aftermarket shock added.

This is music to my ears !

Gen 3 will be coming when the '05 is laid to rest.

 

[MCRIDER007]

I rode a Gen 1('05) with stock for a little more the 100k before upgrading to a Penske and AK-20s. At the same time of upgrading the Gen 1, I purchased a Gen 2 ('08).The upgrade was a HUGE difference. It made a considerable improvement to the Gen 1.(100k+ since upgrading) Now let me say it … The Gen 2 stock was much better

than the Gen 1 stock, BUT… I will take the Gen 1 with the upgrade over the Gen 2 stock. I can't wait to flip the suspension on the 2 bikes when the '08 becomes my LD bike.

I actually preferred the plush ride of my 08 to my upgraded 05 and didn't transfer the suspension until I was planning to sell the 05. What a difference in handling without giving up the plush ride....and when I compared the "new" 08 to the stock 05, the 05 felt like a old worn out bike even though the shock only had 11K and it had only been 15K since the forks were rebuilt.

 

[HyperPete]

I have a '16ES, and I have been noting the the fork preload is sadly lacking on soft and standard.

I would like to start by adjusting the fork preload alone if at all possible. I saw the Chart Fred(?) posted, but I have not broken out the owners or service manual to figure out how. (It was easy on my gen1!)

Is it possible, and can someone point me toward any post(s) going through the procedure? Would something like the RaceTech gold valve for my VMax be available for the ES suspension, and help?

(Disclaimer: I have not checked out the Gen 3 bag-o-tricks yet.)

 

[escapefjrtist]

<<snip>> I have a '16ES, and I have been noting the the fork preload is sadly lacking on soft and standard.

I would like to start by adjusting the fork preload alone if at all possible. I saw the Chart Fred(?) posted, but I have not broken out the owners or service manual to figure out how. (It was easy on my gen1!)

Fork spring preload is not externally adjustable on the ES USD forks. Only way to change is install a shorter (or) longer internal spacer. If you're referring to dampening, I'm not aware of any method to separately adjust fork & shock dampening within the ES system. Outside of the ES system, yes...but that's a separate discussion.

~G

 

[HyperPete]

Fork spring preload is not externally adjustable on the ES USD forks. Only way to change is install a shorter (or) longer internal spacer. If you're referring to dampening, I'm not aware of any method to separately adjust fork & shock dampening within the ES system. Outside of the ES system, yes...but that's a separate discussion.

~G

So, you said outside of the ES system. Are there firmer progressive rate springs for the ES?

Whenever I brake, I get excessive dive AND "SLOP"unless I set the system to Hard, and that just makes the ride harsh.

Perhaps I can use a PVC spacer like we do on our Gen 1 VMaxes?