FJR Riders and crashing

[fretbender]

Dude... Buy a dirt bike.

No doubt. Time to get back to my roots.

 

[Grog]

well Keith, since you are one of the guys who crashed recently maybe you could start us off with answers to your crash situation?

Mine was a combo of rider error and stupidity. I passed on a double yellow line. As soon as I got around the truck, the pucker factor set in. I think I had more target fixation than anything, I do beleive if I didn't fixate on the ditch, I could have made that turn.

I don't really think for me it was riding above my ability, as much as passing in a stupid spot at the wrong time. I'd chock that up to lack of attention of upcoming road rather than riding beyone my ability.

Holly crap Batman..... Are we twin brothers of different mothers? That is the exact same thingy I did. Only I was on my Aprilia at the time. I just joined the serious crash club on Cinco de Mayo. I should have drank Margaritas that day instead of yankin' a boner.......

 

[Last Chance]

Ask almost any aircraft pilot, or the FAA, and they'll generally tell you any given accident was pilot error with some contributing factors. Gravel on the road is a contributing factor, the "pilot" erred because he was too fast for conditions. Single bike low side in a curve, bad cold tires are a contributing factor and the "pilot" erred because he was using unsafe equipment in a manner that deviated from safe operating parameters (excessive speed and cold tires), and developed "target fixation", a result of improper training or lack of recurrent training. Anyway, you get my drift.
JFK Jr and company died because he flew his airplane into deteriorating visibility, failed to get on the instruments quickly enough, and his instrument flying skills were not what they should have been. John Denver died while switching from one fuel tank to another and failed to follow instructions about how to do it in an airplane that was new to him. Al Fitzgerald died because he ran out fuel 150 yards from the end of a runway. The gas cap came off and the fuel was siphoned out of one tank. He failed to switch to a fuller tank like the before landing checklist asks you to do, which means he didn't use the checklist either. Three mistakes, and another good guy is gone.

You know that some cager is going to turn left in front of you today, or seize your lane because they can't see you because they are too busy talking on the cell, or change three lanes in one move with no signal because they are stupid. It doesn't matter. Avoiding them, the deer, the gravel, whatever the hazard is, you put yourself there. An FJR PILOT is no different from any aircraft pilot. You and you alone are responsible for the safe operation of your ride in the conditions you choose to ride in.

Sorry for the rant. Personal responsibility for a life is a big deal, even if it's just your own.

Now, where's that really good stretch of twisties?!

You are 99.9% correct. Speaking as a pilot and a commercial driver.... However, I think there is the 0.1% of accidents that are non-preventable.. If you count "Should have stayed in bed" as the only remedy for the condition you find yourself in. I call such an accident a "non-preventable" accident. For example, if someone in a big rig decides to jump the median and come through the bushes at the right time and speed and T-bones you in spite of you taking all evasive action possible... (I once had a convertible with two young females do that once, except I was able to avoid killing them. Her timing was just a little off.) Obviously, after the fact one can usually determine a "method" of avoiding it. That is a healthy exercise. Engine failure of a properly cared for aircraft engine and one that was properly operated is another example of a possible "non-preventable" accident.

If someone decides to pull out in front of you at the last possible moment, making it impossible for you to avert a collision, that, IMHO is a non-preventable accident. If I slow to 10 mph anticipating said idiot doing such and he just waits a little longer he will still get me.

If my number comes up in that situation, then my number is just plain up! I've walked away from several situations where a couple inches would have been all she wrote. I don't like to even think about cats and nine lives. :dribble:

LC

 

[RsvlFeej]

On Rockpile Rd, with its long, wide, positively cambered sweepers, I found myself leaning waaaaaay over with my butt halfway off the seat and my head leaning so far over to where it seemed like it was under the handlebar next to the front tire, while on every righteous right-hand sweeper that rolling ribbon of menacing metallic guardrail sharply reflecting the blazing sunlight unfurled at a blurring rate just inches from my face.

And still I wanted to go faster. And I did. And I rolled that throttle on some more and pushed that handlebar closer toward the ground....

...

When Clark thought back to his day and his behavior in those marvelous sweepers that afternoon, his reaction was invariably--"What in the F**K was I thinking?! Why do I think I need to play at Nicky Hayden?! Why do I have to go fast at all?! What's the point?! James Francis Montgomery Alberto Alonso Destructo Burleigh III, what in the H.E. Double Hockey Sticks is the matter with you?! Are you nuts?!"

[end quote]

JB,

What were you thinking?! What was the point?! Are you nuts?!

It's about Living :yahoo: rather than existing :dribble: . Jeebus man, your tagline oozes life philosophy and quotes Hunter S. Thompson :umm: :shok: ... Non sequitur

Philosophy of life aside, earlier in the day you got smacked in the face with a big new piece of information about how to position your body to help your bike corner and were still in the "holy sh*t, this is cool phase!" Once you're thoroughly comfortable with weight shift while cornering, next time you hit a set of similarly marvelous sweepers, you will be going at least as fast as you were last weekend, and mostly what you will feel is "F*ckin' A, that was Fun - It is Good to be in control of this amazing machine at a level closer to its limit! Now, where's the next corner and how should I be set up going in?" It's a much better feeling than the adrenaline-fueled prayer for survival... And the end-of-day ride rehash is more, "boy, did I blow the entry speed on that blind right-left" and a lot less, "Fu*k me, I could have Died twice today!"

Cornering-at-speed is a skill that will hopefully postpone or eliminate another crash-club entry - Confidence that you and your bike can make the maneuver needed to avoid an oblivious cager is almost as important as your awareness of said cager's potential idiocy...

Off soapbox,

RsvlFeej

 

[madmike2]

It's about Living :yahoo: rather than existing. :dribble:

Well, yes it is. It is also about living until tomorrow so I can ride again. Its also about living to enjoy my grandchildren rather than leaving pictures of me that their mom can point to.

Personally, I find that after a few experiences and reading a few more threads posted that my 70% has regressed a bit. Perhaps I'm more aware of my own mortality or it could just be fear. I think my skills are still pretty sharp, but I can't control what OTHERS are doing on the same roadways or the surface conditions of those same roads. And, yes, I've encountered other motorcycles approaching in my lane because THEY couldn't maintain control. One of those incidents resulted in the totalling of my '04 FJR. THAT is the reality from which I determine my best lane position and technique, even at my 70%. Sure, I could chalk up my experiences to bad luck, evil kharma, deserved divine retribution, being on the receiving end of someone elses's 70%, or whatever. Most of the end consequences are directly related to my application of throttle percentage.

"Nobody ever got hurt taking a corner 10 MPH slower", Walt Fulton @ the Streetmasters Motorcycle Workshop. I think I'm going to listen to his experience, wisdom and ability. (Walt Fulton III is a recognized name in motorcycling. A former three-time winner at Daytona and team racer for both Harley-Davidson and Kawasaki, he was a featured rider in the documentary "On Any Sunday." He is a BMW Legends racer, a professional motorcycle accident reconstruction expert, motorcycle journalist and a private riding instructor.)

In the final analysis, as I told my children after giving my grizzled fatherly counsel (and knowing they weren't going to heed it), "Do whatever you want, just don't cry about the unintended or unforseen results."

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming!

 

[cougar8000]

That is what track racing is for. At the end of each session you seat down and say things like:" Wholy shit, did you see the sparks that were coming from my pegs and damn I should have bought couple more pairs of sliders this are almost toast."

As madmike said, you have to account for the others screwing up. However, I am many years aways from grand kids, I am having my second kid in September :yahoo: , so I want to be around for a LONG time to come. But the idea is the same.

 

[dean]

well Keith, since you are one of the guys who crashed recently maybe you could start us off with answers to your crash situation?

Mine was a combo of rider error and stupidity. I passed on a double yellow line. As soon as I got around the truck, the pucker factor set in. I think I had more target fixation than anything, I do beleive if I didn't fixate on the ditch, I could have made that turn.

I don't really think for me it was riding above my ability, as much as passing in a stupid spot at the wrong time. I'd chock that up to lack of attention of upcoming road rather than riding beyone my ability.

when i'm riding in groups, that's usually my greatest fear, whether it's me or a rider in front of me: car that needs passing, but upcoming curve; you gotta build up speed to get around car, but getting around car and then making the turn. when i see riders in my group doing it, it puckers me up quite a bit, cause i can't judge their speed, and so i say a brief little prayer for 'em. ( : at our fj rally a dude on an r1 target fixated (i'm guessing) as you state you did at shady valley and probably caught air for 30 feet before landing 20-30 feet down a dropoff. he was lucky, "only" a broken wrist requiring 6 pins, broken femur requiring titanium rod, aircared out.

i'm almost more inclined to pass _in_ the curve, at least i can maintain a little more controlled speed, vs. the speed up/brake/lean maneuver. it may not be safe or right, but it's what i'm comfortable with.

 

[Kevin Daly]

Well, yes it is. It is also about living until tomorrow so I can ride again. Its also about living to enjoy my grandchildren rather than leaving pictures of me that their mom can point to.

Madmike2: wise man, living grandfather of many!

-cheers

 

[radman]

When I wrote the quoted statement, it seemed at the time that a lot of folks seemed to be going down while apparently warming up for Superbike school. Now, I'm not so sure. In any case, I have always thought, and still do more than ever, that pretty much every crash can be attributed to rider error. In every instance, the rider involved screwed up, sometimes obviously, sometimes much less so, but in the end the root cause of going down was some error on the riders part. Lack of focus, riding beyond ability, failure to take environmental conditions into consideration, you name it,it always boils down to this-the only real control a rider has over his/her situation is himself/herself. Slow down, focus harder, don't let the attention wander, stay away from questionable situations, don't take that dare, don't ride tired, know your limits and stay within-all these and more can prevent what too many consider inevitable. To be honest, I cannot think of a single incident I have read of where the root cause, though it may have not been readily apparent, lay somewhere in the shadows of rider behavior, either before or during said event. Even accident reconstruction experts never assign 100% blame on one cause or the other-it's always a blend. I just try hard to move that percentage as far to the other side as possible, and as a result have yet to join the crunch club. I do NOT believe it is inevitable, and have passed up multiple opportunities to become a member as the years have come and gone. THIMK.

 

[Windblown]

Rider errors:

Lack of skill/training: Bad Judgement: Inattentiveness: Riding over ones head:

The harder you push on the door to the last one the quicker the first three will line up to bite you in the A$$. No fixed road hazard that puts you on your butt is anyones fault but your own.

Been there, done it, wear the scars to prove it. Learned along time ago that the first person to blame is yourself. If you ride for the adrenelin rush you'll pay the piper sooner or later.

 

[FJRZOOM]

After reading about some of our forums most recent crashes, one statement stood out.
"when are folks gonna realize these aren't R1's?" - Radman.

So I pose the following questions,

1. Do FJR riders push this bike too hard? :bb: :bb2:

2. Would we still have crashed if we were riding R1s?

3. What percentage of bikers do crash?

4. What causes FJR riders to crash?

In my opinion

1. Riding any bike carries inherant risks, I think we all know that. From my experience on this forum, I think many FJR riders to push the bike, but isn't that what everyone does on a sports bike??? However, this isn't a sports bike... or is it??????? :dntknw:

2. I'd probably be dead instead of just needing tupperwear and subframes. Again, sporty bikes are designed to be ridden hard. I think that all of us that have crashed would probably be in the same boat on an R1.

3. Probably a lot. At this point, I think I accept crashing as a risk of my riding style, so the question becomes, are you willing to risk your arse for a hobby you love?

4. So far most of the posts are rider error during riding hard. Like myself, most of us can own up and just admit we f#*@ed up. If you looked over the ST1300 forum, would there be as many crashes???

This is an interesting topic, so lets keep it civil and on topic. No matter what you opinion is, I'm interested in hearing it.

Yes all riders do crash sooner or later. I just completed my first crash on the new FJR!! Not fun, but is a good lesson. First I took a small drink a can of called DUMB ASS and was riding the twist’s up in the hills. The FJR is a fantastic bike and feels so great in the turns. Yes it even felt better than my CBR 1000. In the hairpins I forgot to check speed I slowed down before the curve and was twisting on the fuel when the foot peg grabbed the pavement. The bike slid into the cement guard rail. The good news is the bike took it well and so did my right shoulder small scrape on the right knee. I picked up the bike and rode it 30 miles home. Don't even think of riding the FJR like you would on the track. If you push it too hard it will try to do what it is not meant to do. If you want to ride it that way then keep crashing the bike and you will understand that the mark of a good rider is shown by his ability to stay away from situations where good riding skills. At 66 years old and riding fast bikes most of my life (51 years) we all go brain dead now and then, but do it with the helmet on. $500.00 is the best insurance money can buy

Scotty

 

[madmike2]

Aahhhhh, the FJR Siren Song bites another rider/owner!

"We can do it.....you know we can. I know you want to ride me faster and harder, so c'mon. Don't these corners feel great...you are such a good rider and I respond to your every touch. Its almost like riding in a dream world. Faster....faster....faster....we are such a good team."

THEN, in a reality moment, the FJR Siren becomes the 600+ lb. porker that it is. It isn't as nimble as a sport bike. It is limited by the laws of physics as to how much speed vs. mass it will allow you to force around a corner. The epiphany can be painful and expensive (if there is a choice, hopefully expensive and NOT painful).

But...do what you want. You are all adults and can learn from others or from your FJR and gravity, inertia, etc.

 

[keithaba]

Maybe an MSF instructor can chime in, but I just don't see what someone could do differently in that situation?

That said there are exceptions for every rule. Depends on the amount of gravel and how packed it is and the alignment of the stars ... you get the drift.

most of the time you will survive. And those times that you did not you will go down because you should have went slower. If you were going even more slower what would have happened?

I agree with what you are saying, for the most part. But the "you could have been going slower," argument is certainly a slippery slope. First off, neither I, nor the rider who crashed right behind me were going fast for this corner. We were well under the posted speed limit. Yes, if both of us would have been riding slower, maybe we wouldn't have crashed. What if we still did??? Should we have been doing 5 mph in a 25?

Ultimately, if we just went 0 mph, the crash would have been avoided completely!!! And we would be having a lot of fun sitting on the bikes in our garages.

Bottom line, I do accept responsibility for other crashes I had. I completely attribute rider error, I'm not pulling the poor me card. But there are some accidents that are just unavoidable. When the environmental conditions are just right, there just ain't much you can do. In this one corner, you could see all the slider marks from other bikers who had gone down. And then a second biker on a harley eats it right after in the same exact spot???

It looks like the alignment of the stars was not in my favor, nor the other motorcyclists who have crashed at this spot, directly as a result of some guys dirt/gravel/sand driveway, that spewed out on the road in a bad spot.

To those of you who haven't had a wreck, I'm proud of you, and I hope it stays that way. But beware the day some asshole pulls out right in front of you, or you hit some shitty spot of oil on the road (who had the video where FJR just slides right out from underneath him at low speed?), your attitude might change a little as experience always alters our thoughts and beleifs.

 

[fretbender]

Not to hijack the thread, but how does one know where 10/10's (and thus, 9/10's, 8/10's, 7/10's, etc.) is if you've never crashed? :evilsmiley03:

 

[keithaba]

Not to hijack the thread, but how does one know where 10/10's (and thus, 9/10's, 8/10's, 7/10's, etc.) is if you've never crashed? :evilsmiley03:

You don't... it's subjective....

Someone needs to just put this thread to bed anyway!!!

ADMINS!!! KILL IT!!!! It's gone on long enough!!!

 

[IndianaTom]

or you hit some shitty spot of oil on the road

Man, just casually rolling up to a stop sign yesterday in my cage my traction control kicked in and the car herked a little. i guess i rode over a spot where a Harley had been sitting. Tha'd been unfortunate if I'd been on the FJR.

Alot of tires brag about 'wet traction', but none brag about 'oil traction'. Maybe someone should make tires out of Oil Dry (cat litter).

Ok, now you can kill it