Front tire cupping - why?

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dcarver

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I've had/have many street bikes, even full blown dirt bikes running street tires, and street bikes running full knobbies and have never had one of these bikes 'cup' the front tire - as long as the bike was in good condition - meaning balanced tires, good and properly torqued wheel/steering head bearings, etc.

And Yes, most my bikes don't have chicken strips on the tires.

Yet on this forum I've read about handling problems caused by cupped front tires. What causes cupping? Is this FJR-specific due to rake/trail figures or weight bias, horsepower, or??

 
Generally its due to the weight on the front tire. Some brands of tires are less susceptible to cupping, but all front tires will cup eventually on this bike. Not much you can do about it! I'm having better luck with my front Avon over the stock Bridgestone.

 
The original Z4s I had cupped way bad. This round of tires I am running with a higher front tire pressure of 42psi. I think the front end on the FJR is a little too heavy to be doing 36 but that's just a theory.

-r

 
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Cupping is normal on tires that have tread cuts going across the tire. This is why Avons for example don't cup.

Mike

 
This is why Avons for example don't cup.
Ahhhhhhhh...............but they do cup young grasshopper. It's just that they are much more resistant to cupping than the other brands.

My first front Avon eventually developed a vibration due to cupping that could be felt at about 75mph and up.

Of course this was after having over 15,000 miles on that well worn tire. Overall, I have been extremely pleased with the Avons. I am on my 3rd front (with 14k on it) and like my 5th rear.

If you look closely, you can see HERE what a cupped front Avon looks like.

 
That link is a good example as to why so many migrated. Oh, and I luvs my Avons, wobble and all..... ;)

 
As SkooterG and Radman have indicated, the Avons do cup, but in a much less pronounced manner than the Stones. My last front Avon looked identical to what SkooterG shows on his link, but I don't recall any noticeable vibrations as a result.

John

 
As SkooterG and Radman have indicated, the Avons do cup, but in a much less pronounced manner than the Stones.  My last front Avon looked identical to what SkooterG shows on his link, but I don't recall any noticeable vibrations as a result.
John
For me the cupping doesn't affect the ride until you hit the 3 digit area. It is probably just the beginning of cupping at 5000 miles and it takes rubbing my hand across the wheel to notice it.

The cause for me so early (5000) was because of my neglect in checking the tire pressure. I trusted that the dealer had and on any other bike I have ever own this was not enough time for me to worry about air. I guess I misplaced my trust again, damit...

 
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So, Sparky, you never turn then, eh? When my tires are cupped, they preclude any agressive fun in twisties. It becomes a turn - grip - skip - grip - skip - grip ride that simply is no fun.

 
So, Sparky, you never turn then, eh?  When my tires are cupped, they preclude any agressive fun in twisties.  It becomes a turn - grip - skip - grip - skip - grip ride that simply is no fun.
Mine is probably just starting. Lookin at the tire it is like you can see a line going down the tire and rubbing your hand across it you can feel a difference. It may just not be to the point yet where I would feel the skipping in the turns. Hopefully I will have them replaced before I ever do...

 
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So, Sparky, you never turn then, eh?  When my tires are cupped, they preclude any aggressive fun in twisties.  It becomes a turn - grip - skip - grip - skip - grip ride that simply is no fun.
Mine is probably just starting. Lookin at the tire it is like you can see a line going down the tire and rubbing your hand across it you can feel a difference. It may just not be to the point yet where I would feel the skipping in the turns. Hopefully I will have them replaced before I ever do...
Ummmm, that's not cupping. you're talking about a flat spot on the left and right side of the front tire running the circumference of the tire, right?

Here's a pic of a tire chalked-up to show the cupping from the Rattlebars site I often post (note that they call cupping scalloping):

vtxcupping.jpg


What I think you are describing is this:

tirefronttext.jpg


This condition is most evidenced by the front end flopping over into the turn (felt most durning low speed conditions.)

 
Yes TWN by george the bottom one is what I am feeling/seeing, hum.

What would be the cause of this, the same as cupping low air or something else?

 
Think of the contact patch on the front tire as you turn; lots of friction to wear at the tire. Also, the crowns built into the roads exacerbate the condition on the side of the tire closest to the center of the road.
Read this and be enlightened:

https://www.rattlebars.com/valkfaq/tirewear/
I know I am being hard headed here but should I be seeing this at 5000 miles.

I guess I am just use to different tires. :angry:

Oh well...

Thanks

 
5k is about when mine start to 'go' and I'm on my third set this year w/no LD type riding.

Think of it like this: I can only get about 6,500 miles on the rear Avon. Radman is headed toward 13,000. I've seen liquidsilver post that he toasts the rears in as little as 2,000 miles. It all depends on how you ride, where you ride and how much weight you burden the tires with along with how you maintain them.

Heck, I went 16,000 on my Wing before I changed the OEM's and I still had 5k left in the front.

I think you're within the norm...

 
What I'm not seeing mentioned here is Rider Input. It is very much, a factor, an almost always thing.

Its affect really came to consciousness for me with my R110RT. On that model, it seems BMW had designed the entire bike, also with a specific tire (size) in mind. Before release, a new line of "Sport Touring Class" tires was released by the tire manufacturers, and BMW chose to install them on their new bike.

The new tires were of wider section, and they came close to touching the single-sided swing arm. With both mechanical and physical offset, BMW was able to gain their desire clearance. But now, the front and rear tires were out of line. And this was cause of the infamous Pull To The Right, or PTTR.

The affect varied among bikes because of differing tolerances in bolting the subframe(s) to which the front end is mounted. On my bike, the result was severe.

As the roundness of the front tire was worn away, more and more concerted push on the left bar was required, just to ride in a straight line. But also - and this is the point to my post - more and more pressure was required to "keep the bike down in a turn left turn".

What was going on was Continuous Counter-steering: The tire was being turned oposite the turning direction, and constantly Scrubbing during the turning maneuvers. It is this scrubbing action which produces Cupping.

In talking with Riders about the phenomenon (continuous bar pressure while turning) almost all of them swore they did not do it. I was certain otherwise, so I placed clay on the bars and had them ride a series of corners, doing the counter-steering to initiate a turn by pulling on the "outside" bar rather than pushing on the "inside" bar. All came back with comressed clay after only the first turn.

The need to apply "inside" pressure to a bar to keep a bike on course while turning is called Understeer. The phenomenon, the "need", does not arise with some bike, and some tires on those bikes. It ranges all the way up to X tire on Y bike "needs" it even when the tire is new.

Certainly, as a front tire wears in the center, the "need" is going to increase. The "need" will initially be lower, and "grow" slower with a more round profile tire - Avon Azaros being such. The opposite end of the scale (for me) is the ME-Z4, having a flatter arc section.

The phenomonon will also be more pronounced with lower than higher tire pressures. This is because lower pressure tires will be flatter under straight run dynamics, and much flatter as MV2 loads are applied during cornering.

I don't pay huge attention to other causes of motorcycle tire cupping. I'm certain they can exist. But so far, it's never occurred that I could not prove a rider with a cupping front tire is not using flatter than rounder tires, and/or lower than higher pressures that promote front tire flattening, and that he/she is appling bar pressure to keep the bike down in turns.

Believe or accept what you will. I just wanted you to know about a well proven fact.

Best wishes.

 
my gosh, twowheelnut and rdfrantz: thanks for the treatises on the problem. I'm giving up books and just reading the forum posts. :eek:

Mine has developed the same problem and I was told that the Pirelli Stradas do not have the problem as much.

There was someone who wrote about meeting someone at a bike show and hearing about a "new" Strada coming out which was FJR specific.

1. anyone have any experience with the Strada (ie, the cupping problem).

2. anyone hear anything about the FJR strada?

Thanks

:)

 
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