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I enjoyed my years with the 1911 Colt the guv issued me. It provided years of service, it was however merely a backup to the other stuff they gave me to use, a 105mm main, a Cal .50 machine gun, a 7.62 Coax machine gun, M3 grease gun. We could like just prop guns up with triggers locked with gloves and **** and go off for a couple beers and a doob, and come back in a couple hours and clean up the meat popsicles, ya know? :D

 
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I think this debate belongs in this Harley thread because 1911 diehards are just like Harley diehards, don't dare say anything bad about them.

By the time Browning had died in 1926 he himself had gone a good ways away from many of the 1911's designs. Ever heard of the Browning Hi-Power? :D

 
:assasin: Knifemaker...there are those that disagree...but I concur B) ...nice point
Yea, but you do notice he owns a .45 :D :lol:

 
**BTW, I may be wrong, but I've long labored under the belief that a 9mm spits a .357 inch diameter bullet and has a .380 inch outside diameter shell casing -- same as a .380, a .38, a .357 and all the rest of the .38 calibers (supers, etc).  I have never heard that a 9mm is a .37 caliber, but maybe that's the result of the conversion from metric to english measure?
Quickly, while diameter is the meaning of many bullet distinctions it is not the whole story. For instance a 45 long colt or even a 45 acp is bigger in diameter but is nothing in comparison in power to a .44mag which is smaller in diameter.

A 45 long colt has very little powder in it as most guns in that time had well weaker metal than todays guns so they couldn't take the big blast of say todays metals such as the 500 S&W. That is where the battle of stronger more powerful handguns come in is the ability of the gun itself to take the blast.

Between the .38 and the .357. A .357 magnum revolver will shoot both rounds as they fit the cylinder but when you shoot a .38 and then put in a .357mag you will then realize they are not the same. Extreme power difference...

Actually I see what you were asking now, nothing to do with what I thought... Never mind

 
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Sorry double post

 
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(Replying to Sparky, didn't capture the quote, and am too lazy to redo): Honestly, the primary reason I've had 9mm pistols over the years has been relative lack of expense for ammunition when I feel like heading out to the desert for some gunpowder therapy. (I'm still pissed at myself all these years later for selling my Colt Python, which was a perfect mix of cheap ammo with .38s and greater power.) I have never had to pull a gun on anyone, and hope I never do. Would I rather have the .50 Desert Eagle if that happened? Probably -- if I was confident I'd hit anything with it (but I doubt I'd be very practiced on it with the cost of those rounds). But much of my last post arises from a pretty strange set of circumstances over the last few weeks:

GF's 23 year old son has been ordering high capacity magazines for a lot of assault weapons (and semi auto pistols) to our NV address (he lives in CA, where everything he's ordered is illegal). I may disagree with some of CA's rationale for some of their gun laws, but they are the laws, and he did this without telling us or asking permission. I don't appreciate being used, and she is not a gun fan. I've only met him once -- briefly, and he was pretty rude. I talked to him the other night, and he lied up and down to me, so I start wondering whether he's mature enough to own what he's ordering. Then, the next morning, I check to see what has been backordered to arrive here, and discover that it consists of 100 round AR15 and M1 rotary feeding magazines. So, I suggest she call her ex -- the kid's dad. Nice guy, and not only does he know his son is spending all his money (kid makes a lot) on a friggin' combat arsenal, but he's actually pretty concerned about it and the emotional issues potentially implicated. Tells me that son also has a .50 cal machine gun that he actually has registered -- he paid $7500 for that alone. I learn some more possibly troubling ****. Yesterday, everything that had been sent here got shipped back to suppliers.

I've owned guns since I was a teen -- under my Dad's supervision and tutelage. Like most males, I'm taken by their engineering and machining perfection. Hey -- we all love mechanical things and tools, don't we? And I was taught to respect them. But I also distrust unchecked testosterone in some people. I'm sure that if I was paranoid enough, or had been picked on enough as a kid, I might so as far as GF's son and own some REALLY heavy defensive weapons, even if not as many as I now understand he has. (I mean, no one is coming in here if I set up that .50 cal and point it at the door, right?) I'm not knocking others' legitimate love of and use of firearms. I am concerned about some people's reasons and emotional states, however. As for me, I'm happy with the guns I have, and don't want to spend any more time or money upgrading my arsenal to enable me to shoot through car windows effectively, or stop the next drug dealer who tries to come through my front door with one shot.

No offense to anyone intended -- just some observations about egos, testosterone and motivations (mine, yours, ours and theirs) borne of a unique (in my life) recent firearms situation. BTW, the little twit is now righteously pissed at his dad, mom and me for not getting what he tried to make us an accessory to in his illegally possessing. IMO, by itself, THAT tells me he isn't mature enough to own that sort of thing.

Hmmmm, let's see if I can hijack this thread even FURTHER off the motorcycle path. :unsure: :erm:

 
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Radman,

I see you must have been on a M60 series tank? As I remember the 1911s were from various manufactures. The goverment had not purchased new ones since when, WWII or was it Korea? They were wore out paper weights. My experience at the range when I was in? The enemy had better be standing right in fornt of me or I wasn't going to have a chance in hell in hitting him. Also, if memory serves me...the replacement 9mil had won over the stiffest gun competition ever. I love the history of the M1911 and have no experince with new models. Still, I think the Beretta was the better choice.

 
Radman - What did you think of the M-3? My uncle used one in WWII and used to laugh about his experiences with it. Yeah, the M2 Browning .50 cal - even though older than dirt, is still a great MG and is still in action.

Knifemaker - actually a pretty good analagy. HD/.45 - big and slow. FJR/9mm - small and fast!

Sparky - military ammo is by international treaty "copper jacketed" and there isn't much room to maneuver. I think the Browning Hi Power is one of the nicest pistols I've ever shot. At least for me, it fits just right and it's very well made - great pistol.

 
**BTW, I may be wrong, but I've long labored under the belief that a 9mm spits a .357 inch diameter bullet and has a .380 inch outside diameter shell casing -- same as a .380, a .38, a .357 and all the rest of the .38 calibers (supers, etc).  I have never heard that a 9mm is a .37 caliber, but maybe that's the result of the conversion from metric to english measure?
Quickly, while diameter is the meaning of many bullet distinctions it is not the whole story. For instance a 45 long colt or even a 45 acp is bigger in diameter but is nothing in comparison in power to a .44mag which is smaller in diameter.

A 45 long colt has very little powder in it as most guns in that time had well weaker metal than todays guns so they couldn't take the big blast of say todays metals such as the 500 S&W. That is where the battle of stronger more powerful handguns come in is the ability of the gun itself to take the blast.

Between the .38 and the .357. A .357 magnum revolver will shoot both rounds as they fit the cylinder but when you shoot a .38 and then put in a .357mag you will then realize they are not the same. Extreme power difference...

Actually I see what you were asking now, nothing to do with what I thought... Never mind
Yeah, I know all that, and have owned and shot several of the calibers you mentioned. (I took my NRA hunters safety course back in the 60s.) But you didn't answer my question about diameters on the 9mm. Someone had said that a 9mm was a .37 cal, and I stated my understanding about the bulllet and shell casing diameters of THOSE rounds only. I'm genuinely curious if I've been laboring under a mistaken impression all these years.

 
(Replying to Sparky, didn't capture the quote, and am too lazy to redo): Honestly, the primary reason I've had 9mm pistols over the years has been relative lack of expense for ammunition when I feel like heading out to the desert for some gunpowder therapy. (I'm still pissed at myself all these years later for selling my Colt Python, which was a perfect mix of cheap ammo with .38s and greater power.) I have never had to pull a gun on anyone, and hope I never do. Would I rather have the .50 Desert Eagle if that happened? Probably -- if I was confident I'd hit anything with it (but I doubt I'd be very practiced on it with the cost of those rounds). But much of my last post arises from a pretty strange set of circumstances over the last few weeks:
GF's 23 year old son has been ordering high capacity magazines for a lot of assault weapons (and semi auto pistols) to our NV address (he lives in CA, where everything he's ordered is illegal). I may disagree with some of CA's rationale for some of their gun laws, but they are the laws, and he did this without telling us or asking permission. I don't appreciate being used, and she is not a gun fan. I've only met him once -- briefly, and he was pretty rude. I talked to him the other night, and he lied up and down to me, so I start wondering whether he's mature enough to own what he's ordering. Then, the next morning, I check to see what has been backordered to arrive here, and discover that it consists of 100 round AR15 and M1 rotary feeding magazines. So, I suggest she call her ex -- the kid's dad. Nice guy, and not only does he know his son is spending all his money (kid makes a lot) on a friggin' combat arsenal, but he's actually pretty concerned about it and the emotional issues potentially implicated. Tells me that son also has a .50 cal machine gun that he actually has registered -- he paid $7500 for that alone. I learn some more possibly troubling ****. Yesterday, everything that had been sent here got shipped back to suppliers.

I've owned guns since I was a teen -- under my Dad's supervision and tutelage. Like most males, I'm taken by their engineering and machining perfection. Hey -- we all love mechanical things and tools, don't we? And I was taught to respect them. But I also distrust unchecked testosterone in some people. I'm sure that if I was paranoid enough, or had been picked on enough as a kid, I might so as far as GF's son and own some REALLY heavy defensive weapons, even if not as many as I now understand he has. (I mean, no one is coming in here if I set up that .50 cal and point it at the door, right?) I'm not knocking others' legitimate love of and use of firearms. I am concerned about some people's reasons and emotional states, however. As for me, I'm happy with the guns I have, and don't want to spend any more time or money upgrading my arsenal to enable me to shoot through car windows effectively, or stop the next drug dealer who tries to come through my front door with one shot.

No offense to anyone intended -- just some observations about egos, testosterone and motivations (mine, yours, ours and theirs) borne of a unique (in my life) recent firearms situation. BTW, the little twit is now righteously pissed at his dad, mom and me for not getting what he tried to make us an accessory in illegally possessing. IMO, by itself, THAT tells me he isn't mature enough to own that sort of thing.

Hmmmm, let's see if I can hijack this thread even FURTHER off the motorcycle path. :unsure: :erm:
Like bikes I don't have anything against any gun and especially for its calliber.

There is enough data out to support most of the problems with the 9mm however.

But, like you said you didn't buy it to shot car windows or people with anyway and much of this is just talk.

Heck my guns are all locked up in a $800 4 combination safe that would take me 5 minutes to get into so mine aren't for self defense either.

Good luck with the GF's son issue. My wife had her ex-boyfriend point a gun at her so when she found out I like guns she wasn't for it.

However she see's how I treat them and I often try to go to any gun class I can and taking shooting classes I can always learn something.

Often times I have impressed people simply by the way I unload, cook and hand a gun to them. It will go a long way for them trusting you being around them.

 
Radman - What did you think of the M-3? My uncle used one in WWII and used to laugh about his experiences with it. Yeah, the M2 Browning .50 cal - even though older than dirt, is still a great MG and is still in action.
Knifemaker - actually a pretty good analagy.  HD/.45 - big and slow.  FJR/9mm - small and fast!   

Sparky - military ammo is by international treaty "copper jacketed" and there isn't much room to maneuver.  I think the Browning Hi Power is one of the nicest pistols I've ever shot.  At least for me, it fits just right and it's very well made - great pistol.
Yea, I know the whole better to wound and take up 3 or more personel than to kill him and only take up 1. Isn't NATO such a great thing :D

Don't really understand why you got the impression I didn't know that or what I said for you to mention it?

 
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Ever heard of the Browning Hi-Power?

Yes. Had one. Nice piece.

The best 9mm I had was a CZ-75. Felt great in the hand and I had one load I could put all 15 rounds into a 1-1/2 inch dot at 30 feet all day.

The whole issue over 45 verses 9's or anything else will go on forever. Stopping power, accuracy, etc..

I do have a 45 because I just like it. If I was a cop or someone that needed a weapon for every day use...a tool to keep me alive in bad situations, I would not pick a 45 or a 9mm, but a .357 loaded with 125 grain +P hollowpoints.

Again that would be my choice. Much like bikes, there are many to choose from. You can pick a pistol based on some type of logic, or just for looks. If you NEED a pistol for self defence all the time , you should pick whatever one you are confident with.

I doubt I will ever need to fire my 45 in self defence. If I do, I am confident with the gun. But most of my shooting is practice/pleasure, and the 45 works well for me in this area.

If I am expecting trouble..I feel even more confident with a 12 gauge pump.

KM

 
**BTW, I may be wrong, but I've long labored under the belief that a 9mm spits a .357 inch diameter bullet and has a .380 inch outside diameter shell casing -- same as a .380, a .38, a .357 and all the rest of the .38 calibers (supers, etc).  I have never heard that a 9mm is a .37 caliber, but maybe that's the result of the conversion from metric to english measure?
Quickly, while diameter is the meaning of many bullet distinctions it is not the whole story. For instance a 45 long colt or even a 45 acp is bigger in diameter but is nothing in comparison in power to a .44mag which is smaller in diameter.

A 45 long colt has very little powder in it as most guns in that time had well weaker metal than todays guns so they couldn't take the big blast of say todays metals such as the 500 S&W. That is where the battle of stronger more powerful handguns come in is the ability of the gun itself to take the blast.

Between the .38 and the .357. A .357 magnum revolver will shoot both rounds as they fit the cylinder but when you shoot a .38 and then put in a .357mag you will then realize they are not the same. Extreme power difference...

Actually I see what you were asking now, nothing to do with what I thought... Never mind
Yeah, I know all that, and have owned and shot several of the calibers you mentioned. (I took my NRA hunters safety course back in the 60s.) But you didn't answer my question about diameters on the 9mm. Someone had said that a 9mm was a .37 cal, and I stated my understanding about the bulllet and shell casing diameters of THOSE rounds only. I'm genuinely curious if I've been laboring under a mistaken impression all these years.
The .380 is a short 9mm so I don't know where they got the .37cal from??

 
Radman - What did you think of the M-3? My uncle used one in WWII and used to laugh about his experiences with it. Yeah, the M2 Browning .50 cal - even though older than dirt, is still a great MG and is still in action.
Knifemaker - actually a pretty good analagy. HD/.45 - big and slow. FJR/9mm - small and fast!

Sparky - military ammo is by international treaty "copper jacketed" and there isn't much room to maneuver. I think the Browning Hi Power is one of the nicest pistols I've ever shot. At least for me, it fits just right and it's very well made - great pistol.
M3 was a WWII leftover, made a great hammer, stored nicely, sometimes could even get off a round or two. My fav was and still is the 105 with a Beehive. The fuckwads that made it illegal never had to face a couple squads of charlie deep in the green. Can only imagine the chilling effect it would have on those Crips down on the corner.......... ;)

 
Ever heard of the Browning Hi-Power?

Yes. Had one. Nice piece.

The best 9mm I had was a CZ-75. Felt great in the hand and I had one load I could put all 15 rounds into a 1-1/2 inch dot at 30 feet all day.

The whole issue over 45 verses 9's or anything else will go on forever. Stopping power, accuracy, etc..

I do have a 45 because I just like it. If I was a cop or someone that needed a weapon for every day use...a tool to keep me alive in bad situations, I would not pick a 45 or a 9mm, but a .357 loaded with 125 grain +P hollowpoints.

Again that would be my choice. Much like bikes, there are many to choose from. You can pick a pistol based on some type of logic, or just for looks. If you NEED a pistol for self defence all the time , you should pick whatever one you are confident with.

I doubt I will ever need to fire my 45 in self defence. If I do, I am confident with the gun. But most of my shooting is practice/pleasure, and the 45 works well for me in this area.

If I am expecting trouble..I feel even more confident with a 12 gauge pump.

KM
I agree 100% on .357 REVOLVER. Many cops have suffered from a jammed semi-auto no matter what caliber. A revolver is simple and affective...

I have problems with the shot gun.

While I believe most will just haul *** if they hear you pump it, unless you have training in moving around in small areas, pumping it quickly etc a shot gun can be a hand full for some inside your house...

 
All of these handgun rounds are pipsqueaks. None can deliver the energy to knock someone back or down. Aside from a direct hit to the central nervous system, if you want someone to go down, you have to count on the:

person being shocked or surprised that they were hit

person going down because that's what they thought should happen when hit by a bullet

person bleeding out (internally or externally)

lack of oxygen to the brain due to heart damage or bleeding.

A person can carry on with intentional, controlled attacks for 10's of seconds after being hit, even if their hearts are destroyed or they are otherwise mortally wounded by a handgun round.

A 357 mag will not hit hard enough to stop a man unless the above factors take place.

A 45 will not hit hard enough to stop a man unless the above factors take place.

A 40 S&W will not stop a man unless the above factors take place.

A 9 mm will not stop a man unless the above factors take place.

A 38 spl +p will not stop a man unless the above factors take place.

All will stop a person if one or all of the above are fulfilled, but not necessarily stop them immediately. If any of you know the Tueller drill, then you know that a man 21 ft away from you with a knife will have your throat cut before you can draw, fire and stop him.

So all this 'which cartridge or caliber' will stop better really comes down to what you can shoot the fastest, accuratest( :D ) and bestest. It also depends on how accurately and fast you can fire a follow-up shot. If you shoot a full-house 357 in the dark, you may not be able to see to fire a second shot quickly.

There are so many other factors, too. If you shoot a 357 through a short barrel, you'll get all the flash, a long period of recovery to fire again, and no more power than a 38 spl +p from a longer barrel gun. Shoot a 45 through a Glock 36 with its short barrel, and its velocity won't give you the punch the cartridge is known for. There are lots of variables.

Whatever your caliber, practice, practice, practice so that you can hit what you're aiming for.

The 357 at night:

gp100fired9yy.jpg


Ron

 
Radman - we had a Beehive round for the 105 howitzer - I never fired it in anger - but it was fun to put stuff in the impact area, shoot, and then go see the effects. 7,000 1" darts will do a fair amount of damage.

 
"I have problems with the shot gun.

While I believe most will just haul *** if they hear you pump it, unless you have training in moving around in small areas, pumping it quickly etc a shot gun can be a hand full for some inside your house... "

Luckily at home I would not be doing much moving around. If I grabbed the 12 gauge It would likely be pointed at my closed bedroom door, with barrel resting on the corner of the bed while my other had was occupied with calling the police on the phone.

I would not conduct search missions. As you said , if the sound of the pump being cycled did not persuade an intruder to leave...I would back myself into a secure position and wait.

And if a guy is 21 feet away from me and all he has is a knife..I don't think I would be overly worried...I can draw fast..but more than likely I can run much faster....

KM

 
"I have problems with the shot gun.While I believe most will just haul *** if they hear you pump it, unless you have training in moving around in small areas, pumping it quickly etc a shot gun can be a hand full for some inside your house... "

Luckily at home I would not be doing much moving around. If I grabbed the 12 gauge It would likely be pointed at my closed bedroom door, with barrel resting on the corner of the bed while my other had was occupied with calling the police on the phone.

I would not conduct search missions. As you said , if the sound of the pump being cycled did not persuade an intruder to leave...I would back myself into a secure position and wait.

And if a guy is 21 feet away from me and all he has is a knife..I don't think I would be overly worried...I can draw fast..but more than likely I can run much faster....

KM
The 21 foot scenario is not real life.

Most likely someone with a knife is not going to anounce him/herself. I have been in bars where a guy came up to me to start something and even though he was bigger than me as soon as I started to do something he pulled a knife. If his friend hadn't grabbed him I would never have seen it.

When I did auto glass two co-workers got into a fight and the one guy pulled his knife once they had started and cut the guy from his groin to his knee deep enough that he need surgury and staples. nasty.

Knives in prison are assasins tools.

Knives kill more in this country than most anything else but cars...

 
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