KrZy8 Hissy Fit - Stumbling/Dying off Idle,

[dcarver]

More and more, I'm  thinking it's a fuel pump relay. Never replaced. And when it starts running bad, its BAM RTFN. Of course came to this brilliant conclusion after yanking old rail and 50% installed with new to me FI rail... LOL. At least the new rail clean and beautiful looking.

 

[dcarver]

Did you try unplugging the O2 sensor?

Also, check hoses to MAP sensor to make sure there isn't crud in them.

No, not yet. But I have an Ivan reflashed ECU waiting to go in... which eliminates the O2 sensor.

MAP sensor.. is the air box sensor?

 

[RossKean]

One more thought...

Have a look at the multipin connector to the ECU.  Make sure it is clean and properly seated.

Pressure Sensor  #17 on this fiche  - usually causes Error code 14...

Intake pressure sensor

2006 Yamaha FJR13ABS (FJR13AVC) Intake 2 | Yamaha Sports Plaza

Intake Air Pressure Sensor - Technical/Mechanical Problems - FJRForum

Fault Code 14 Gen II - Solved - Technical/Mechanical Problems - FJRForum

 

[dcarver]

ThankYou RossKean... I owe you big time ..

Not the latest, but I'm tired..


Forums: 

KrZy8







Here we go again.. runs great then WhamO! Stumbling, will I make it home.. 
And 1 mile later.. GREAT... WTFO?

x  

As found conditions.. routing etc.


Most times, don't complete work in one session... so pics are nice.


Air box removed..


Note to self.. Must remove airbox side funnel before removing from frame...


CC setup...
"

and routing...


FI rail removed.. and what always messes me up.. throttle cables.. I just don't get it.. LOL.


Note to self.. removing pull throttle cable much easier if butterflies stuck open with socket!


Very clean intake ports.. Like this..


x  

x  

x  

x  

New TB, used, but new to me.. 17k miles.


Cleaned up. Most 'dirt' from crankcase vent system.. Why not just vent CC to atmosphere via filter? Just wondering..

New unit ready to rock...


x  

x  

Long day, good night,

 

[Auburn]

DC, You sure krzy8 is not giving you the **** because you are spending too much time in the saddle of others? 

 

[FJRay]

DC, You sure krzy8 is not giving you the **** because you are spending too much time in the saddle of others? 

Or, telling him it's time for the FJR boneyard. unk:

Don is determined to get 250k on it before he gives up.

 

[dcarver]

Or, telling him it's time for the FJR boneyard. unk:

Don is determined to get 250k on it before he gives up.

 I am Ray.. The problem is something simple, and I'm not seeing it, as I over-complicate everything in my phucking life..As well you know by now. But I'm not giving up yet... Been thinking I need a Fluke Automotive 'Scope Meter' for some time now... which can graph ignition voltages, etc.. 
 

Unhappy day. Sigh. 
Reflashed  ECU from Ivan's Performance.
New TB from eBay.
Starts easy and runs good to 4k then massive popping in exhaust, both sides. 
No ECU error codes.

Installed new to me eBay, 17k mile TB assembly. Running diagnostics, #2 injector didn't click when activated. After several attempts, yes she fired up.
Not unusual for an injector that's not been run for awhile.


Ran diagnostics on TPS. Low of 17, max per FSM is 15.


And 104 at full throttle, should be 100.


So crap. The best I could adjust was 14 and 101. Can I do better? Have 4 other TPS units at hand...


Let's measure them out with an ohmmeter..
<Results to follow>
Found one with very close to specs, and 15, 100. Installed.

Position 1 and 2, as shown, is from the 'wiper' and full scale end of the poteniometer.

I used the best one I had per FSM specs. It set perfect at 15, closed throttle, and 100, full throttle. Repeatable.

Mounted the tank, fire KrZy8 up and she ran!

But not very well at first, expected. Been there before.. with engine swap, took a minute or so for the fuel rail to charge, discharge air, then she was happy. Not today
Anything above 4k rpm sounds horrible. Both exhausts pipe... Missing... which to me indicates not ignition, but fuel delivery? Runs great at idle, 2k, 3k.. but 4k+ and popping...

So replaced new to me FI injectors with old, refurb injectors from RC Engineering.. same result.. so not injectors..

Thinking either fuel pump failing (OEM, 2006, almost 250k miles = aLOT of gallons pumped) or clogged FP screen, or fuel pump relay. Discounting ignition issues as both exhaust stacks
have the same 'miss' at 4k and above..

Next thoughts..

1. Use 2013 gas tank/fuel pump see if problem goes away (fuel pp on 2006 bad, clogged, etc)
2. Change spark plugs, JIC
3. Shoot the ***** and be done with it?

Ideas, team FJR Peeps?

 

[dcarver]

DC, You sure krzy8 is not giving you the **** because you are spending too much time in the saddle of others? 

No, she's just a ******* to keep the gender equality equal!

 

[RossKean]

Next thoughts..

1. Use 2013 gas tank/fuel pump see if problem goes away (fuel pp on 2006 bad, clogged, etc)
2. Change spark plugs, JIC
3. Shoot the ***** and be done with it?

Ideas, team FJR Peeps?

Possibility of ECU connection eliminated when you swapped out for the IVAN-flashed unit.

I wouldn't expect a TPS to cause this issue, even if it was off a bit from spec as long as there were no discontinuities.

Do you have any means to check the fuel pressure on the rail before you go messing around with fuel tanks etc?

Assume no possible issues with crimped/damaged fuel lines?  Assume that the tank is venting properly - no woosh when you open it or change in operation?

Assume you have done a careful check for vacuum leaks?

Just some thoughts. The fact that it works great some of the time tells me that there is nothing truly "broken".

 

[mcatrophy]

Would have thought it unlikely to be fuel pump. Fuel required at 4000rpm in neutral is much less than fuel required at lower rpm under load on the road. If it's 4000 whether no load or loaded, most likely to be electrical. 

 

[1911]

Watching, pulling for ya, and waiting anxiously for the EUREKA moment when you find the solution.

Intermittent/bad electrical connection issues can be a real *****. I fought one for months   

 https://www.fjrforum.com/topic/176849-just-a-couple-things-i’d-sure-like-to-know/?tab=comments#comment-1423522

note in that Youtube vid how little the harness is being manipulated to induce the TPS variation

I picked a cheap Oscope to play with    https://www.amazon.com/Hantek-Oscilloscope-Multimeter-Portable-Multifunction/dp/B07MT3LDB4  it's a game changer for watching O2, crank and cam, injector and ignition. 2C72

Along the way I converted to coil-on-plugs   https://www.fjrowners.com/forums/9-fjr-technical/112505-coil-plug-mod.html    , Ivan flashed my ECU and since my bike was an 07, swapped the throttle body assembly with a 08 set from Ebay to get the linear throttle cam.  It's like a new bike.

The best twelve I ever spent on Ebay was for a fuel line that I could splice. TB sync and diagnosing access-YEA! Note the COP conversion too   

https://player.vimeo.com/video/457728928?app_id=122963

Good luck and endeavor to persevere

 

[1911]

That exhaust popping makes me think ignition timing. If we were on the same coast I'd love to see one channel of a scope watching your crank sensor and the other channel watching the crank sensor of a known-good bike running at matching RPMs.

 

[RossKean]

Along the way I converted to coil-on-plugs   https://www.fjrowners.com/forums/9-fjr-technical/112505-coil-plug-mod.html    , Ivan flashed my ECU and since my bike was an 07, swapped the throttle body assembly with a 08 set from Ebay to get the linear throttle cam.  It's like a new bike.

So, what was the problem?  Did you find a smoking gun or did it just get better after doing all that stuff?

I considered swapping to a COP setup but never felt it would do more than just clean up the top of the engine a bit. 

Same with the Ivan flash - might still consider that one for my 2011.  Better fuelling  might be nice and if it makes a slight HP improvement without hurting gas mileage, so much the better.

Sorry, didn't mean to derail Carver's thread but 1911's observations might be helpful.

 

[RossKean]

That exhaust popping makes me think ignition timing.

I thought about ignition timing but I would expect it to be bad all the time, not good for a while and then suddenly going bad.  And good again the next time.

Maybe coils are breaking down and the COP might be worth trying?

 

[1911]

So, what was the problem?  Did you find a smoking gun or did it just get better after doing all that stuff?

I considered swapping to a COP setup but never felt it would do more than just clean up the top of the engine a bit. 

Same with the Ivan flash - might still consider that one for my 2011.  Better fuelling  might be nice and if it makes a slight HP improvement without hurting gas mileage, so much the better.

Sorry, didn't mean to derail Carver's thread but 1911's observations might be helpful.

The smoking gun was the bad connection in the wire harness. There is a splice where the ground (return) wires for multiple sensors (O2, TPS, cam, crank, coolant, maybe others) come together before one wire runs back to the ECU. It took MANY tries but I finally duplicated the failure while I had a meter hooked up and the bike on the centerstand. I removed the crimp collar for the splice and redid the connection and EUREKA! This was all before the Ivan, COP and t-body swap. All that was done just to make 07 life better.

 

[dcarver]

Thank You, THANK YOU for replies, ideas, comments, suggestions. I thought that after she sat all night, on the 'healing lift', she would be all fixed this morning. Eagerly, with highest of expectations, stated KrZy8 up and she would barely idle, not take any throttle without stalling.

Another data point.. yesterday afternoon, when started and running, she runs perfect at < 4k rpm, idles smooth, and will take a quick throttle hit e.g. twist the throttle fast, really well. No hesitation, fast response.. much better with Ivan's ECU than before. 

When key turned on, fuel pp sounds 'normal'. Runs for a 3 or so seconds, then shuts down.

Possibility of ECU connection eliminated when you swapped out for the IVAN-flashed unit.

• And I visually inspected all female pins, they look clean, straight, good.
  

I wouldn't expect a TPS to cause this issue, even if it was off a bit from spec as long as there were no discontinuities.

• I forgot to bring my worksheet to breakfast this AM... but I was very surprised at the difference in resistance values across the 4 TPS units. Will post up values later.
  

Do you have any means to check the fuel pressure on the rail before you go messing around with fuel tanks etc?

• I have pressure gauges, but haven't figured out how to connect fuel line to gauge?
  

Assume no possible issues with crimped/damaged fuel lines?  Assume that the tank is venting properly - no woosh when you open it or change in operation?

• Correct. Lines are clear, tank is venting, no whoosh.
  

Assume you have done a careful check for vacuum leaks?

• Have not. Will find the WD40 and spray like a Tom cat around boots etc.
  

Just some thoughts. The fact that it works great some of the time tells me that there is nothing truly "broken".

• It's now progressed to where it doesn't run properly at all. At least for the last 5 or starts.. it's been sitting waiting for lift time as I worked the KZ1300.
  

Would have thought it unlikely to be fuel pump. Fuel required at 4000rpm in neutral is much less than fuel required at lower rpm under load on the road. If it's 4000 whether no load or loaded, most likely to be electrical. 

• Then again, at 240,000 miles at 35 mpg, it's pumped 6,857 gallons of fuel... That's a lot of 'run time' and if turns out it's the pump, well, it owed me nothing!
  

2 hours ago, 1911 said:

Watching, pulling for ya, and waiting anxiously for the EUREKA moment when you find the solution.

• Thank you! Kind of frustrated at the moment.
  

Intermittent/bad electrical connection issues can be a real *****. I fought one for months   

 https://www.fjrforum.com/topic/176849-just-a-couple-things-i’d-sure-like-to-know/?tab=comments#comment-1423522

note in that Youtube vid how little the harness is being manipulated to induce the TPS variation

I picked a cheap Oscope to play with    https://www.amazon.com/Hantek-Oscilloscope-Multimeter-Portable-Multifunction/dp/B07MT3LDB4  it's a game changer for watching O2, crank and cam, injector and ignition. 2C72

• That's what I like about the Fluke Automotive scope meter. It's a multimeter with o-scope capacity and programmed for automotive measurements. I'm getting one..
  

Along the way I converted to coil-on-plugs   https://www.fjrowners.com/forums/9-fjr-technical/112505-coil-plug-mod.html    , Ivan flashed my ECU and since my bike was an 07, swapped the throttle body assembly with a 08 set from Ebay to get the linear throttle cam.  It's like a new bike.

The best twelve I ever spent on Ebay was for a fuel line that I could splice. TB sync and diagnosing access-YEA! Note the COP conversion too   

• Spliceable fuel line? How's that work?
  

https://player.vimeo.com/video/457728928?app_id=122963

Decided to take the morning off and not look at KrZy8 until it warms up.. 

 

[dcarver]

Forgot to add that this AM when fired up and yesterday afternoon, the exhaust sounds 'hollow'. Recorded audio via iPhone and will host it later today..

 

[dcarver]

Audio Link

The smoking gun was the bad connection in the wire harness. There is a splice where the ground (return) wires for multiple sensors (O2, TPS, cam, crank, coolant, maybe others) come together before one wire runs back to the ECU. It took MANY tries but I finally duplicated the failure while I had a meter hooked up and the bike on the centerstand. I removed the crimp collar for the splice and redid the connection and EUREKA! This was all before the Ivan, COP and t-body swap. All that was done just to make 07 life better.

I actually purchased a new-to-me FI harness. Advertised as 2006 but not.

 

[dcarver]

Found the fuel pp relay by activating diag code 50, listening, then feeling. It at least clicks which means not much.. but location is verified.

 

[dcarver]

So started the day with basics..Travel through all diagnostic codes and see what's present.Code History - 60, 61, 62. 60 = 0, 61=12, 62=4. Clear them all.30 = fire plugs 1-4, OK.31 = fire plugs 2-3, OK.36 = injector 1, OK.37, inj 2, OK.38, inj 3, OK.39, inj 4, OK.50, fuel pp relay, it clicks.. located under front nose cowling...Ok then, boldly forward..Spark plug caps all tightInstall New2Me FI harness for top rail injectorsInstall new spark plugsHard to start, add fuel to tank (substituted KrZy8 tank with Naomi tank and fuel pp, but near empty)Error 13, intake air pressure (would not clear, my bad, did not connect after step 2)Fire up, she runs GREAT! Smooth, clean, no popping at 4k +rpm, and with all the 'other' work sounds better than for long time...Install OEM KrZy8 tank.. instant popping and bad behavior.. EUREKA!So then, off to find a fuel pp used or new...]250k plus miles.. I think can do....and to think last night I actually dreamed about parting KrZy8 out...Per 1911... Endeavor to persevere!I'm cautiously optimistic this is it.. Been chasing this issue for a long time.. So many Thank You's for all who have stepped forward to help.. When Covid is over, a fresh adult beverage for all is on me!