Leaning out/in

[FJR Bill]

Curious if others have had this issue and if so any recommendations. I ride fairly aggressively on mountain twisty roads. Compared to other bikes I've owned the FJR seems to be less natural in cornering. Love the bike but would like to improve my cornering skills on it.

The main issue seems that I want to lean out rather than in on a curve. I think it's because the inside handle bar comes in close and I want to lean away from it as that arm feels stuffed. Sometimes I feel crossed up and I've not felt that on other bikes. Otherwise the FJR is the best bike I've ever owned. Suggestions/comments?

Bill

 

[Twigg]

In a corner, the inside handlebar should be further away, not closer. In any event, the actual movement of the bars is minute.

What you are describing is a lack of confidence in your ability, and I would always recommend advanced rider training for things like this. Apart from teaching you new skills, or enhancing old ones, the training course are a great deal of fun.

 

[rushes]

"Compared to other bikes I've owned the FJR seems to be less natural in cornering."

Spend a little money (or a lot) on a suspension upgrade.

 

[Uncle Hud]

Hardly qualified, but I do like to clown around a little. Here's what I mean ... In my opinion, there are three ways to take a curve:

1. Keep your body as vertical as possible and lean the bike as far over as is necessary to find the proper line and make the corner. I characterize this as "throwing the bike into the corner" because you extend your arms and inside knee and push the bike down -- and I mean PUSH it down.

2. Maintain the same body/bike geometry as when riding down a straight stretch of road, and lean as a unit. I characterize this as "turning like a statue" since nothing much changes as you go down the highway. You make a straight line from the center stand, up your spine, through the top of your hat, and tilt the entire line together. Try to keep your head tilted along that line, too.

3. Leave the bike as vertical as possible, and move your body towards the inside of the curve to make the turn. I characterize this as "Valentino Rossi" and try to mimic the Big Boys by moving my *** off the seat, throwing out my inside knee, bending my elbows deeply, moving my chest towards the tank, and cranking my neck so that my head remains as vertical as possible and looking at the apex of the curve, then the exit. The web has millions of photos illustrating how the professional lunatics do it; here's one.

To reiterate, I "clown around" meaning I don't do any of this at particularly high speeds and always stay well within the bike's and my capabilities. I have a few variations on a 45-minute loop from the house through downtown Atlanta and back that I often ride after 11pm just to chill out. It's fun to practice each of these riding styles while rolling along this very familiar, low traffic route, and it helps me when riding a little more aggressively on curvy or unfamiliar roads -- where I have found the Rossi style to be much more suitable.

(Full disclosure: I am absolutely certain we reach the limits of my capability far before we reach the bike's.)

 

[Pterodactyl]

Bill, do you counter steer?

 

[Twigg]

Bill, do you counter steer?

Everyone counter-steers at any pace above walking speeds

The physics of the bike makes it impossible to do otherwise. However, not everyone is aware of what they are doing because it is completely counter-intuitive. One of the benefits of learning how a motorcycle actually goes round corners is that you can take a more active role as a rider, rather than simply sitting there almost a passenger while the bike does the work.

This understanding improves not just cornering, but also taking avoiding action, better braking and all round more enjoyable riding. One of the "tells" in the original post was that the OP felt the "bars came closer" during cornering, when in actual fact the active bar, the one on the inside, gets further away from the rider.

This situation really calls for expert tuition, because learning the benefits of counter-steering is a real "come to Jesus" moment in a rider's life.

 

[FJR Bill]

In a corner, the inside handlebar should be further away, not closer. In any event, the actual movement of the bars is minute.
What you are describing is a lack of confidence in your ability, and I would always recommend advanced rider training for things like this. Apart from teaching you new skills, or enhancing old ones, the training course are a great deal of fun.

Twigg,

You're right. I totally understand counter steering. After reading your post, I think the reason I feel stuffed is when I lean in, my arm seems stuffed as I'm leaning into it.. I think my problem is the geometry of the handle bars is not right for me. This is something I can work on. My Moto Guzzi is my absolute most natural steering bike I've ever owned for aggressive cornering. I think it is all about the geometry of the two bikes and how they fit me. Thanks, Bill

 

[Fontanaman]

Gen II suspension blows. Once you accept that and install after market upgrade it will improve your bike in ways you dreamed not possible. It will put the bike on rails, make it very precise and much more nimble.

Before I upgraded the suspension on my 09 it was a lot of work to countersteer on technical mountain roads. I would get tired because I was pushing through a mushy front end.

A friend let me ride his FJR one day with an upgraded suspension on a twisty section of road. It took two turns before I knew I had to have my suspension updated. (not an exaggeration - it was that much better.)

Tires make a big difference too. I found the Metzler Roadtec Z6 were slow to drop into the turn while the PRII and BT023 drop in quicker. I like the bike to drop in quick with little effort.

 

[Pterodactyl]

Was trying to bring up the subject without offending. You know me, I'm nothing if not sensitive.

 

[Abercrombie FJR]

With out seeing you ride in person, your comments of " I lean out rather than in on a curve" and "Then inside handle bar comes in close and I want to lean away from it as that arm feels stuffed" " Some times I feel crossed up" tells me that you may be hanging your butt off the seat too much or more than needed.

In the basic rider course we teach head turn and look were you want to go. I think the next step in the learning curve of turning the motorcycle is opening up your shoulders by dropping and tuning your upper torso into the turn. It might even be beneficial to start by leaving you rear end planted on the seat to notice the effects of the improved upper body position. While doing that, work to relax your arms using correct body position and think about slightly dropping your inside elbow. You will be amazed at how the bike falls into the corner effortlessly when you get your upper body turned into the corner and into the correct position. Many times I find myself unintentionally tightening my cornering line out on the road while practicing correct body position, while not riding at track day or advanced rider school speeds.

Here is a link to a nice article that talks about applying a little race bike like body position for improved safety on the road. I had to laugh at the photos of me at my first advanced rider school. I was so crossed up on the bike with my butt way off and my shoulders turned the wrong way, it was hilarious. I looked like a way slower version of Mick Doohan shown in #3 of the article below.
rider position

 

[infrared]

Curious if others have had this issue and if so any recommendations. I ride fairly aggressively on mountain twisty roads. Compared to other bikes I've owned the FJR seems to be less natural in cornering. Love the bike but would like to improve my cornering skills on it.The main issue seems that I want to lean out rather than in on a curve. I think it's because the inside handle bar comes in close and I want to lean away from it as that arm feels stuffed. Sometimes I feel crossed up and I've not felt that on other bikes. Otherwise the FJR is the best bike I've ever owned. Suggestions/comments?

Bill

Bill,

Can you relax enough to wiggle your fingers while turning? I'm not talking about cornering to extremes, but just in fast cruising turns. To me it sounds like you are carrying a lot of body tension in the turns, and except for racing, that excess tension is not helping.

Also, you should be aware that the FJR handling is fairly sensitive to tire pressures. I like the rear to feel solid and planted, but not give a hard or harsh ride. If the front tire is low in pressure, the bike falls into a turn too willingly, and I need to hold it up while turning. If the front tire is too high in pressure, the bike wants to stand up in a turn, and I have to hold it down manually through the corner. Measure you tire pressures, and keep a written record. Experiment until you find the tire pressures that work best for your riding style, then go with those numbers.

What tires are you running on, now? If they are aged, even with good tread remaining, they may not be giving you the confident handling and feel of the newer tires. My 2008 came with reasonably new Pilot Road 2s, and they suit me well enough, but now I am open to advice for what the next set should be. New tires and the right tire pressures can make a great difference in handling. Then you can relax when you want to, and just let it fly.

Cheers,

Infrared

 

[Denver_FJR]

In a corner, the inside handlebar should be further away, not closer. In any event, the actual movement of the bars is minute.
What you are describing is a lack of confidence in your ability, and I would always recommend advanced rider training for things like this. Apart from teaching you new skills, or enhancing old ones, the training course are a great deal of fun.

Say what?

The inside handlebar is further only during the period to initiate the turn, once in the turn the inside handle must be closer. You couldn't make a left hand turn for very long without falling over if your handle bars are pointed any amount to the right.

 

[Twigg]

In a corner, the inside handlebar should be further away, not closer. In any event, the actual movement of the bars is minute.
What you are describing is a lack of confidence in your ability, and I would always recommend advanced rider training for things like this. Apart from teaching you new skills, or enhancing old ones, the training course are a great deal of fun.

Say what?

The inside handlebar is further only during the period to initiate the turn, once in the turn the inside handle must be closer. You couldn't make a left hand turn for very long without falling over if your handle bars are pointed any amount to the right.

This is not correct.

The bar moves away to initiate the turn, then back towards neutral to maintain the angle. If it moved back towards the rider you would be initiating a turn the other way, or straightening up the line.

Edit:

I'm going to expand on this because I know it is tricky to get your head around, and I struggled with it despite the fact that we ALL do this instinctively.

Okay ... With decent tires and the bike upright, and straight and level, it will run in a straight line until you stop. In order to initiate the turn you have to make the bike behave not like a cylinder (two wheels straight up), but more like a cone. Roll a conical shape on a flat surface and it will roll in circles ... we can all visualize that easily.

When you want to turn left, the dynamics of making the cone mean you have to push the left bar forwards. That points the front wheel right, but you don't go right because the bike "falls over" to the left. That initiates the turn.

What you do next is "stop the turn" radius decreasing. If you kept the same pressure the bike would either fall left, or turn in decreasing radius circles until it hit the ground. So the bar moves slightly back towards the rider just enough to maintain the constant radius you initiated.

Remember a body in motion will remain in constant motion unless you do something to change it. So the bar comes back just a little and you "feather" it to match the radius you want.

If the bar comes back too far, the bike sits up and tries to increase the radius of the turn until finally it is straight and upright again.

If at any time the left bar comes back BEYOND the neutral position, you are then initiating a turn to the right. Effectively you have made a cone sloping the other way. So in a left turn, the left bar is never closer to the rider than it would be in straight and level riding.

I dunno if that is clear as mud, or a decent explanation. In practise we do all this without much conscious thought, and the picture can be complicated by shifting your weight, road cambers, etc. Yet the theory remains sound. We push the left bar to go left, and push the right bar to go right. Getting it straight in your head allows some very rapid direction changes.

Next time you are on a quiet interstate try it. Get up to 70 mph. then use your "push" technique to slalom the white lane dividing lines. You can swerve rapidly and in total control even at high speeds. If you start with small movements you can quite easily build up to rapid changes in direction with complete confidence. Useful when that deer appears in front of you.

 

[mcatrophy]

...2. Maintain the same body/bike geometry as when riding down a straight stretch of road, and lean as a unit. I characterize this as "turning like a statue" since nothing much changes as you go down the highway. You make a straight line from the center stand, up your spine, through the top of your hat, and tilt the entire line together. Try to keep your head tilted along that line, too.

...

2A. Maintain the same body/bike geometry as when riding down a straight stretch of road, and lean as a unit. ... You make a straight line from the centre stand, up your spine. Tilt your neck to keep your head near upright.

Keeping the horizon visually horizontal adds no end of confidence to your cornering.

 

[Rider]

If at any time the left bar comes back BEYOND the neutral position, you are then initiating a turn to the right.

In a turn, the bars are turned slightly in the direction of the turn. I was just watching "Twits of the Wrist - Abridged" on youtube where a pointer was mounted to the bars to demonstrate both the brief counter steer to initiate the turn and bar position in the turn. It's a good video, but I agree in an advanced rider course.

I too have not yet been able to find balance in hard riding the twisties, meaning I feel too much weight on the inside bar and the front seems to wash prematurely. That was happening with low front tire pressure (29), so I've pumped that up (38F, 42R) and moved the bar position back a notch to see how it goes - waiting for dry roads, but I could tell immediately the tire pressure was the big issue.

 

[CA G-Man]

Lots of good pointers here but in my experience the most important one and the one with the biggest immediate payoff is what Abercrombie said - turn your shoulders into the turn. All those other things are important too - keeping your head level, counter-steering, brake and throttle control, suspension, tires, etc., but I've found that if there's one thing I need to think about it's turning my shoulders towards where I want to go (and leaning forward slightly). Everything else just seems to follow if I do that. Lee Parks covers this pretty well in his book.

 

[Teehaml]

In a corner, the inside handlebar should be further away, not closer. In any event, the actual movement of the bars is minute.
What you are describing is a lack of confidence in your ability, and I would always recommend advanced rider training for things like this. Apart from teaching you new skills, or enhancing old ones, the training course are a great deal of fun.

Say what?

The inside handlebar is further only during the period to initiate the turn, once in the turn the inside handle must be closer. You couldn't make a left hand turn for very long without falling over if your handle bars are pointed any amount to the right.

This is not correct.

The bar moves away to initiate the turn, then back towards neutral to maintain the angle. If it moved back towards the rider you would be initiating a turn the other way, or straightening up the line.

Edit:

I'm going to expand on this because I know it is tricky to get your head around, and I struggled with it despite the fact that we ALL do this instinctively.

Okay ... With decent tires and the bike upright, and straight and level, it will run in a straight line until you stop. In order to initiate the turn you have to make the bike behave not like a cylinder (two wheels straight up), but more like a cone. Roll a conical shape on a flat surface and it will roll in circles ... we can all visualize that easily.

When you want to turn left, the dynamics of making the cone mean you have to push the left bar forwards. That points the front wheel right, but you don't go right because the bike "falls over" to the left. That initiates the turn.

What you do next is "stop the turn" radius decreasing. If you kept the same pressure the bike would either fall left, or turn in decreasing radius circles until it hit the ground. So the bar moves slightly back towards the rider just enough to maintain the constant radius you initiated.

Remember a body in motion will remain in constant motion unless you do something to change it. So the bar comes back just a little and you "feather" it to match the radius you want.

If the bar comes back too far, the bike sits up and tries to increase the radius of the turn until finally it is straight and upright again.

If at any time the left bar comes back BEYOND the neutral position, you are then initiating a turn to the right. Effectively you have made a cone sloping the other way. So in a left turn, the left bar is never closer to the rider than it would be in straight and level riding.

I dunno if that is clear as mud, or a decent explanation. In practise we do all this without much conscious thought, and the picture can be complicated by shifting your weight, road cambers, etc. Yet the theory remains sound. We push the left bar to go left, and push the right bar to go right. Getting it straight in your head allows some very rapid direction changes.

Next time you are on a quiet interstate try it. Get up to 70 mph. then use your "push" technique to slalom the white lane dividing lines. You can swerve rapidly and in total control even at high speeds. If you start with small movements you can quite easily build up to rapid changes in direction with complete confidence. Useful when that deer appears in front of you.

Great advice and explanation Twigg. To me it is definitely more of a "feel" thing than a "thinking" thing and something I need to practice more of. Southern NJ is not known for twisty roads.

Great article in the fall IB mag by the way...

 

[El Toro Joe]

I have taken the ERC (experienced rider course) twice, in the 7 years of owning the FJR. I feel it has been very helpful to brush up on things, every few years.

 

[Twigg]

Great article in the fall IB mag by the way...

Thanks. They are fun to write