Leaning out/in

[Pterodactyl]

Even though there are some good posts from knowledgeable people in this thread, a forum is not the place to learn cornering techniques. Nothing replaces in-person instruction and practice while being observed and provided immediate feedback; take a course. If you rely on a public forum you may just get confused and receive some bad advice. There is a little of that here as well. Take a course.

 

[El Toro Joe]

I have to agree...ride, ride, ride, then go ride some more. Take it easy in the turns until you reach enough of a comfort level to wik it up. Practice technique.

 

[Geezer]

All of the pointers on technique are helpful. You sound like an experienced rider and may simply have an ergonomic issue with the FJR. The bars on my Gen 1 are angled differently from any other motorcycle I have ridden. They feel like they are angled back and I had to get accustomed to the angle on my wrists. I assume the other generation FJRs are the same, though the Gen 2 and 3 are adjustable to some degree.

 

[A41Billy]

It possible the front preload needs adjusted to lower the front of the bike. If the bike geometry is right and the tires are decent, the FJR will turn in with ease.

 

[Cav47]

I have to agree...ride, ride, ride, then go ride some more. Take it easy in the turns until you reach enough of a comfort level to wik it up. Practice technique.

Practice technique, then go practice/ Ride,Ride, Ride.

Too many of us practice bad habits for so long that it becomes very difficult to fix. Especially in a non-voluntary event, one that is reflex rather than a seldom rehearsed act. (the old coach in me prefers kids that have never played football to kids that have a bunch of bad habits)

Good topic for the board that makes all of us question what we are doing and why.

 

[bluesurf]

There is also more to confidently riding fast than body and handlebar position. As Keith Code said, and I am paraphrasing: "you have a dollar to spend". How you want to spend that dollar is up to you.

A few things that I put to point when riding above commuting speeds, be it on the FJR, DR-Z, CRF, KTM, etc:

Basic body position: Are you comfortable? I have friends who ride as quickly and have a completely different body position. Personally, I like to lean off on street bikes, and keep as much tire contact with the ground as possible, but will stay more upright if the tarmac is grippy, etc. I feel as though I have more control and more headroom. For me, it's also enjoyable to move around and feel the torque and g-forces.

Inputs: When riding hard do you have solid flowing mechanical inputs to the bike? Can you throttle up or down independently of other actions? Can you apply rear (trail) brake in to a corner without upsetting geometry? Can you pull in the clutch and up or downshift without a major upset of the platform? Can you lean further in to, or out of a corner if need be? All other things being equal, can you push through the pegs with your feet and alter the bike's course? Are your hands loose on the bars? Are your elbows relaxed? When you are comfortable in a fast corner and get on the throttle does the bike turn in, or out? That last item alone will provide a lot of feedback about your ergonomics.

Recoverability. Again, are you comfortable and have margin for error? If you're not, then slow down and/or find a local track with instructional managers that will follow you and provide feedback. You always need to be able to take a degree of evasive/corrective action. If you are comfortable and have margin for error, then continue evaluating and refining all of your inputs to the bike at any given point.


There are some good roads in my local area. A worthy exercise is to run the same stretch a few times in a row, changing body posture and other inputs, and realizing what a great difference it all makes.
Hope this helps....like Tommy Lasorda said, and again I'm paraphrasing: "Baseball is 90% physical, and the other half is mental". While I don't necessarily agree with the numbers in that quote, then I do believe in getting yourself physically comfortable, and then getting really really mental.

 

[Beary]

Umm OK. The handlebar on the inside of the turn “is” closer than the handlebar on the outside of the turn. This is often confused with counter-steering because the rider constantly pushes on the inside handlebar to perform a turn in that direction. However, while the motorcycle itself needs counter-steering to lean into the turn, physics requires the tire to be pointed in the direction of the turn to create the proper friction for it to change direction. In other words, the tire must be pointed into the direction of the turn. It’s confusing I know because the pushing a rider feels gives an appearance that the tire is pointed away from the turn. But the feel is only fooling the brain of the physics required to change direction of the front wheel.

As for the OPs question, the FJR is a heavy enough bike that leaning one way of the other won’t change the center of gravity very much unless you are a rather large fellow. It has a little effect, but it would take a lot of practice to see a noticeable difference. I think selecting the proper entrance and exit of each curve would provide a more significant performance response.

Beary

 

[bluesurf]

Umm OK. The handlebar on the inside of the turn “is” closer than the handlebar on the outside of the turn. This is often confused with counter-steering because the rider constantly pushes on the inside handlebar to perform a turn in that direction. However, while the motorcycle itself needs counter-steering to lean into the turn, physics requires the tire to be pointed in the direction of the turn to create the proper friction for it to change direction. In other words, the tire must be pointed into the direction of the turn. It’s confusing I know because the pushing a rider feels gives an appearance that the tire is pointed away from the turn. But the feel is only fooling the brain of the physics required to change direction of the front wheel.
As for the OPs question, the FJR is a heavy enough bike that leaning one way of the other won’t change the center of gravity very much unless you are a rather large fellow. It has a little effect, but it would take a lot of practice to see a noticeable difference. I think selecting the proper entrance and exit of each curve would provide a more significant performance response.

To the first point, then yes, there is an inflection point during a turn at which a handlebar attitude to the motorcycle changes from inside to outside. Centripetal forces prove resourceful during such times.

Regarding physics and changing direction then there is no black and white. Directional changes occur over a course of time/distance, and there are times when the front tire is not pointing in the direction of the turn, but still has sufficient forces to maintain traction and velocity.

Regarding the FJR's weight and leaning one way or the other having having an impact on the center of gravity, then I will respectfully disagree. You have a dollar to spend....

 

[FJR Bill]

Even though there are some good posts from knowledgeable people in this thread, a forum is not the place to learn cornering techniques. Nothing replaces in-person instruction and practice while being observed and provided immediate feedback; take a course. If you rely on a public forum you may just get confused and receive some bad advice. There is a little of that here as well. Take a course.

Maybe your right but in my post I mentioned these issues I'm encountering are unique to the FJR and me. On other bikes I've owned I do not have the same issues. I've been riding for about 55 years and I'm not sure this old dog can learn new tricks.

Take Hwy 28 in NC for example. On previous bikes, hardly any of my fellow riders could stay with me. On my FJR, I'm now the slowest of my buddies. Otherwise I love the bike and many suggestion on this thread will be explored. Suspension upgrades might be first on my list. Tire selection might be next. Currently using PR2's.They feel good new but not so good when worn. Lot's of good info provided on this thread.

Bill

 

[TomInPA]

It seems I have to constantly coach myself and relearn the best body position in turns. The bad habit I have is to push into the countersteer, which keeps me over the center of the bike, rather than inside.

I have to consciously keep my inside arm flexible so my center comes into the inside and I can "kiss the mirrors"

My hope is doing this enough it will be be automatic, but I often find my elbow is not flexed enough and I'm still riding, rather than driving into turns. I'm getting better, and I don't expect to drag a knee at 61 years of age. I do feel a bit faster and more confident in turns, and can get inside to reduce lean angle when I need to. So, I can relate to the comments of the O.P. and I think a lot of us work on improvement.

 

[CA G-Man]

Another idea to consider - up-size the rear tire from 180 to 190 mm:

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/148260-upsizing-rear-tire-to-19055-w-pics/

Makes for about an 11 mm increase in tire diameter. I did this when I put on my T30s. Now, I'm not sure whether it was because of the size change, the change in tires, or a bit of both, but I was amazed at how the bike would drop right into the corners and hold a line after the change whereas with the stock BT023 (180/55) rear I had to maintain pressure on the inside bar to hold a curve. A BIG improvement!

 

[FJR Bill]

It seems I have to constantly coach myself and relearn the best body position in turns. The bad habit I have is to push into the countersteer, which keeps me over the center of the bike, rather than inside.
I have to consciously keep my inside arm flexible so my center comes into the inside and I can "kiss the mirrors"

My hope is doing this enough it will be be automatic, but I often find my elbow is not flexed enough and I'm still riding, rather than driving into turns. I'm getting better, and I don't expect to drag a knee at 61 years of age. I do feel a bit faster and more confident in turns, and can get inside to reduce lean angle when I need to. So, I can relate to the comments of the O.P. and I think a lot of us work on improvement.

Yep, that's what I'm talkin' about. I'm working on it and will look into suspension settings/ upgrades. The FJR is not a beginners bike.

Bill

 

[Pterodactyl]

Bill, I'm not sure what you rode before, but the FJR is not a sport bike. It is a 640 pound bike; it handles well for its size, but it ain't no sport bike.

 

[ULEWZ]

Sounds to me like the bike wants to stand up in the corners. The stock suspension is adequate, but not fantastic, but very doable. Try the suggested settings for the Gen II, I think it is 8s all the way around and two lines showing for preload and then try it again.I have no trouble hanging off.

 

[FJR Bill]

Bill, I'm not sure what you rode before, but the FJR is not a sport bike. It is a 640 pound bike; it handles well for its size, but it ain't no sport bike.

Owned many bikes over the years. But the bike I'm mostly comparing it with is my 1998 Moto Guzzi EV. When loaded with camping gear etc it's about 700 lbs. The EV is a cornering dream but only has about 70 HP. However it corners like a sport bike. Can't tell you how many times I've blasted by sporters in the twisties or left them far behind. Can't do that on the FJR until the road gets straight. Not complaining about the FJR as it's my cross country bike of choice. Just can't spank it in the turns like my EV.

Bill

 

[rushes]

Might as well sell it.

It'll never handle like a 98 Guzzi.

 

[wil780]

while the motorcycle itself needs counter-steering to lean into the turn, physics requires the tire to be pointed in the direction of the turn to create the proper friction for it to change direction. In other words, the tire must be pointed into the direction of the turn.

Bravo, Beary!

I've read and participated in many threads on other forums about how a bike actually turns, and eventually I figured this out for myself. I've never seen this analysis posted anywhere, so if you figured it out for yourself as well, congratulations.

(It's really hard to sort this out because many experts say that camber force explains everything, but when they try to explain it they demonstrate that they don't understand it either. The key for me was realizing that camber force only turns the wheel to the side. It can't turn the bike. Much of the front end geometry is there to counterbalance camber force so a well set-up bike doesn't need any force on the bars once it's reached its final bank angle and is proceeding around a turn. The wheel points into the turn just far enough to generate the slip angle that produces the friction needed to turn the corner.)

 

[Uncle Hud]

Well, I was going to quote Pterodactyl, but the Quote thingy isn't working on the office computer -- and I'm not reporting it to I.T.

Anyway, what he said in post #20: "Get first-hand instruction;" what others have said aplenty: "Ride, ride, and ride some more;" and a repeat of what I meant: "Clown around a little at lower speeds and with no traffic. It will help you feel more comfortable on the bike, and help you understand where her limits lie."

I expect to never find out where the FJR's limits lie.

 

[Bill Lumberg]

Don't feel alone. I've put a little over 60K on my other bikes over the last three years, and the FJR requires more effort to turn, notably so. I've experiemented with pressures and suspension settings, but it's still night and day. Not that I don't like the bike, it just takes a lot more energy and effort in the twisties. I'm still running stock tires on my '14. I've run battleax, pr2, pr3, and metzeler on other rides. All had good and bad points.

Even though there are some good posts from knowledgeable people in this thread, a forum is not the place to learn cornering techniques. Nothing replaces in-person instruction and practice while being observed and provided immediate feedback; take a course. If you rely on a public forum you may just get confused and receive some bad advice. There is a little of that here as well. Take a course.

Maybe your right but in my post I mentioned these issues I'm encountering are unique to the FJR and me. On other bikes I've owned I do not have the same issues. I've been riding for about 55 years and I'm not sure this old dog can learn new tricks.

Take Hwy 28 in NC for example. On previous bikes, hardly any of my fellow riders could stay with me. On my FJR, I'm now the slowest of my buddies. Otherwise I love the bike and many suggestion on this thread will be explored. Suspension upgrades might be first on my list. Tire selection might be next. Currently using PR2's.They feel good new but not so good when worn. Lot's of good info provided on this thread.

Bill

 

[CA G-Man]

Don't feel alone. I've put a little over 60K over my last three, and the FJR requires more effort to turn, notably so. I've experiemented with pressures and suspension settings, but it's still night and day. Not that I don't like the bike, it just takes a lot more energy and effort in the twisties.

Bill: If the physical effort is an issue for you (and it may not be), consider my post above (#30). I know I'm beating that horse to death but really, it was a night-and-day difference for me! I didn't touch the suspension settings or the tire pressures; just the tire change made a huge difference.