Linked Brakes

[cariboorider]

Anybody advising someone to "not use the front brake" should not be teaching people how to ride. The brakes on the FJR are great and the key is to learn how to use them. Dragging the back brake in gravel or slow speed maneuvers works well. I always recommend the forming a triangle with your arms and the bars (ie elbows in) when I teach people to ride. This will prevent you from sliding too far forward when you are heavy on the brakes

I do a lot of riding in the dirt and practice hammering the front brake until it will slide then release it. Just don't try it in a corner...

 

[Abercrombie FJR]

I always recommend the forming a triangle with your arms and the bars (ie elbows in) when I teach people to ride. This will prevent you from sliding too far forward when you are heavy on the brakes

Hmmm. I always thought a person wanted to keep your weight off your hands and wrists gripping the tank while braking to prevent forward movement. I was taught transferring body weight to the front forks through the handle bars was detrimental to bike control.

 

[Twigg]

I always recommend the forming a triangle with your arms and the bars (ie elbows in) when I teach people to ride. This will prevent you from sliding too far forward when you are heavy on the brakes

Hmmm. I always thought a person wanted to keep your weight off your hands and wrists gripping the tank while braking to prevent forward movement. I was taught transferring body weight to the front forks through the handle bars was detrimental to bike control.

Under extreme braking 100% of the weight of the bike transfers to the front wheel. Most goes through the steering head. There will be a small "turning" momentum if too much forward pressure is applied to the bars, but it's probably not likely to be significant (guess).

In the dry, many bike can happily lift the rear wheel (stoppie) without losing traction on the front. I'd suggest this is to be avoided, and even when stopping in the dry, some rear braking helps balance the bike as it stops the rear trying to overtake the front. In that scenario the slightest "out of line" situation can high-side the bike.

These are extreme situations. Under normal braking the front takes care of about 70% of the braking, when it is wet go for 50:50 and on loose surfaces 30:70.

You can't actually measure these, it's a matter of experience and practise and feel. So go practise

ps ... all of the above is general principles. Linked brakes make some of those decisions for you, and ABS takes away some of the guess-work.

 

[Bill Lumberg]

I look back nostalgically on getting on a bike with fully linked and servo assisted brakes, almost launching myself over the bars before I'd actually purchased the bike. One finger on the lever resulted in a stopping force akin to a masonry wall. Not bad once you got used to it. The gen III FJR brakes feel as simple as those on the 1976 bike mine shares a garage with, but they're a whole lot better under the surface. Love the brakes on my 14. Sand, gravel, wet, doesn't matter. Knock on wood.

 

[Pterodactyl]

There is a certain danger in switching between older bikes with non-ABS and only moderately effective brakes and bikes with state of the art braking. I only recently sold my 1993 BMW R100GSPD. No ABS, drum rear brake, single front disc and serious front end dive. Braking was more like a gentle suggestion that the bike slow a bit. I also have an R1200R that has integrated brakes that can detach a retina they work so well. The R12R is 200 lbs lighter than my FJR and I like the BMW integrated brakes a bit better than Yamaha's. On the R12R the front brake fully applies the front and rear brakes and the rear pedal applies only the rear brake. In normal riding there is no reason to use the rear peddle except for slow speed braking in turns, to hold position at halts, in sand/mud etc. or to assist in making minor adjustments during cornering. Going from the R12R and FJR to the GSPD once or twice a year called for a great deal of concentration in braking correctly. Modern brake systems are wonderful and make a bike much easier and safer to ride, but they can also build bad habits when moving back to an older bike.

 

[lnewlf]

sounds like a good system on the R12R... a riding bud has a Blackbird with linked brakes-back brake is activated by the front brake lever. I often wonder why linked brakes are activated by the front lever..I thought the whole point was to benefit those to dumb to use the front brake..

I was taught that your life should be in your right hand. not your [fill in blank]..

 

[Old Guy]

Prior to the FJR, the only bike I'd owned with linked brakes was my GL1800 Goldwing. And the hate I felt for the linked brakes on that bike was a hate generally reserved for someone or something that harmed my mom. Trying to turn a tight circle with the bars against the stop I could gently touch the pedal to modulate my speed -- like I've been doing for decades -- and it'd operate the front brake. If you've ever applied the front brake with the front wheel turned to once side, you'll understand my justifiable frustration with such a freakin' stupid system. I was sure that linked brakes had been designed in secret by Joan Claybrooke to discourage people from riding while she was working on her backward motorcycle back in the 80s.

However, the FJR doesn't operate like that, and I've been quite happy with the brakes. I still question the need for people who know how to ride, but I guess the less experienced among us must be protected against themselves. The only negative I can see is the complication for a half-fast mechanic such as myself trying to work on them. The brakes on my ZRX are extremely easy to work on; the FJR system looks like it was designed by the guys that put the first people on the moon.

I agree with Kevin on the hazards of switching back and forth. I get spirited on the FJR, and I'll feel the anti-lock kick in every now and then while braking into corners, and I'll think to myself, "Self, you must be cautious about doing that when you're on the old ZRX."

 

[Twigg]

When Yamaha designed the Venture Royale (launched in 1983), they were one of the first companies to use linked brakes.

They assumed the market for that 800 lb full dress tourer was going to be middle-income guys who were lured away from cars and might have very little riding experience. To make the transition less painful, they linked the rear brake to the front so those who preferred to use the pedal had some chance of slowing down 1000 lb of bike and rider safely.

There were a number of issues with this approach. The guys who bought the bikes were generally fairly experienced riders. It was not anyone's idea of a "first motorcycle". Those riders hated the linked brakes. The other issue was that even when new those brakes were marginal, and linking them in this way reduced the effective front-braking, at least in the way most riders were used to.

Riders solved the problem by de-linking the brakes. This is not hard to do. A new set of braided hoses, bypass the proportioning valve and take the guts out of the valve on the rear master cylinder. No problem. Later they also learned that the front calipers from a Yamaha R6 or R1 would bolt straight on, and the front m/c bore was fine. Finally, half decent brakes.

ABS complicates the matter as it allows for a smoother and better implementation if the brakes are linked. On top of that, the FJR1300 brakes are pretty awesome anyway. They are, after all, designed to haul the thing down from 150 mph in a reasonable time and distance. When we use them in normal riding they are hardly trying, hence the very rapid stops we can make from modest speeds.

The brakes I have on the Gen 1 are awesome ... If y'all are saying that the later Gens are better, then I can't wait

I guess the only real issue is that with such effective stopping power, getting used to using it effectively takes a little learning, and ABS makes that easier.

 

[rwortman]

Moto Guzzi came out with linked brakes in the mid 70's and all the bike magazines thought it was the cat's pajama's. A couple of decades and a track school or two later and now everyone is a budding MotoGP rider and can't stand the idea of them. The brakes on my VFR were linked both ways and I liked them enough that if I had a choice between linked and separate I would have bought the linked again. Automatically getting a bit of rear when you grab the front lever is convenient. Getting a bit of front when you stab the rear makes riding on loose surfaces easier. It was biased to lock the rear first so no danger of a washout unless you did something really stupid. Think of it like this. The rider still has control of the front/rear brake ratio. It just had boundaries. A conventional system can go from 100-0 to 0-100. Probably not necessary even on the track. My VFR would from about 80-20 to 20-80. I put 40,000 miles on it and never felt like it didn't do the job. The FJR can do 100-0 to probably 20-80 like the VFR rear. I have no reason to suspect that this won't meet every situation.

 

[stealth1]

Put me in the group that believes linking brakes is a totally unnecessary complication.

I don't believe they do anything to shorten stopping distances or improve safety. I'm not a motogp rider, but I know the difference in the front brake and the rear brake and prefer to apply them in the proportion of my choosing.

When I replaced my front pads, I had 3 pair of very worn pads and 1 pair of barely used pads.

If the brakes had not been linked the wear would have been even across all 4 pair and a set of pads would have lasted longer.

Linking brakes just adds cost, complexity and weight for no advantage as far as I am concerned.

 

[Redfish Hunter]

Such anger over technology! Oh my.

My Honda ST1300 had a very complicated linking system that worked very well and very seamlessly but added weight and complexity. The rear brake would actuate two of the right front pistons via a proportionating valve much like the FJR. This worked well, no "linking" at parking lot speed or low speed maneuvers.

Oh but the front to rear linking was another animal entirely. The left front caliper was not rigidly mounted, it was mounted on a swivel. As that caliper squeezed the rotor it would swivel backwards following the rotor. This compressed a Secondary Master Cylinder which was mounted above the caliper. That secondary master cylinder then actuated the center two pistons on the rear caliper. There were reports of the secondary master cylinder sticking causing the rear brakes to lock up or drag. I never had that issue but my bike was very well maintained.

I must not be a very good rider because neither the linked system on my Honda ST nor the linked system on my FJR ever bothered me. I made an effort to learn and understand the technology when I first got the bikes. I find it works great and I know that if (yeah right! I meant when.) I go down it will not be because of linked brakes.

 

[DezzertRider]

Thanks everyone for all the input. I believe his concern was over control where you hit the rear brake and it is not proportional and things are controlled for you too much. "I'll control the brakes on my own - thank you." This is where he is coming from. I've never noticed on my Gen 1 (with ABS) any over control of the front brakes at all while using the rear. On a dirt road, I've tested the ABS on the rear and didn't notice any over control on the front at all. I think someone said earlier if you weren't told you had a linked system you would never know you had a linked setup on the FJR.

 

[HotRodZilla]

Such anger over technology! Oh my.
My Honda ST1300 had a very complicated linking system that worked very well and very seamlessly but added weight and complexity. The rear brake would actuate two of the right front pistons via a proportionating valve much like the FJR. This worked well, no "linking" at parking lot speed or low speed maneuvers.

Oh but the front to rear linking was another animal entirely. The left front caliper was not rigidly mounted, it was mounted on a swivel. As that caliper squeezed the rotor it would swivel backwards following the rotor. This compressed a Secondary Master Cylinder which was mounted above the caliper. That secondary master cylinder then actuated the center two pistons on the rear caliper. There were reports of the secondary master cylinder sticking causing the rear brakes to lock up or drag. I never had that issue but my bike was very well maintained.

I must not be a very good rider because neither the linked system on my Honda ST nor the linked system on my FJR ever bothered me. I made an effort to learn and understand the technology when I first got the bikes. I find it works great and I know that if (yeah right! I meant when.) I go down it will not be because of linked brakes.

Don't worry Andrew. 95% of the people riding motorcycles wouldn't be able to distinguish between a bike with linked brakes and a bike without them. However, many will work very hard to convince people they can.

It's like all the studs 15 years ago swearing they would never buy a truck with an automatic transmission because, "I'm an American cowboy wannabe, and we use a stick." Except that 7 speed automatic transmissions outgrew their ability to yap.

Unless you tell someone the FJR has linked brakes, they wouldn't know. Look how many people have to be told how to bleed the brakes...why? Because they don't know they are linked.

 

[bigjohnsd]

Hell, compared to my Ural these brakes are rocket science. The Ural was so bad I thought about having the side car passenger carry abcement block tied to a rope to throw out when I really needed to stop!

 

[Chiefblueman]

Thanks everyone for all the input. I believe his concern was over control where you hit the rear brake and it is not proportional and things are controlled for you too much. "I'll control the brakes on my own - thank you." This is where he is coming from. I've never noticed on my Gen 1 (with ABS) any over control of the front brakes at all while using the rear. On a dirt road, I've tested the ABS on the rear and didn't notice any over control on the front at all. I think someone said earlier if you weren't told you had a linked system you would never know you had a linked setup on the FJR.

The reason you don't notice the linked brake system on your Gen1 is because it doesn't exist. Only Gen2 +.

 

[CA G-Man]

In normal riding there is no reason to use the rear peddle except for slow speed braking in turns, to hold position at halts, in sand/mud etc. or to assist in making minor adjustments during cornering all the usual reasons you'd use the rear brake pedal. Going from the R12R and FJR to the GSPD once or twice a year called for a great deal of concentration in braking correctly. Modern brake systems are wonderful and make a bike much easier and safer to ride, but they can also build bad habits when moving back to an older bike.

Fixed it for ya! (Sorry...couldn't resist).

 

[SunRider]

Came to the FJR after 30+ years of (unlinked) sportbikes.

I just love the FJR linked rear pedal.

Best way to get this big boned beast thru' the twistees.

 

[stealth1]

I have never had any stopping problems attributable to the FJR linked brakes, but I believe the short stopping distance several have commented on is because of the ABS, not the linking.

Put me in the group that believes linking brakes is a totally unnecessary complication.I don't believe they do anything to shorten stopping distances or improve safety. I'm not a motogp rider, but I know the difference in the front brake and the rear brake and prefer to apply them in the proportion of my choosing.

When I replaced my front pads, I had 3 pair of very worn pads and 1 pair of barely used pads.

If the brakes had not been linked the wear would have been even across all 4 pair and a set of pads would have lasted longer.

Linking brakes just adds cost, complexity and weight for no advantage as far as I am concerned.

Such anger over technology! Oh my.
My Honda ST1300 had a very complicated linking system that worked very well and very seamlessly but added weight and complexity. The rear brake would actuate two of the right front pistons via a proportionating valve much like the FJR. This worked well, no "linking" at parking lot speed or low speed maneuvers.

Oh but the front to rear linking was another animal entirely. The left front caliper was not rigidly mounted, it was mounted on a swivel. As that caliper squeezed the rotor it would swivel backwards following the rotor. This compressed a Secondary Master Cylinder which was mounted above the caliper. That secondary master cylinder then actuated the center two pistons on the rear caliper. There were reports of the secondary master cylinder sticking causing the rear brakes to lock up or drag. I never had that issue but my bike was very well maintained.

I must not be a very good rider because neither the linked system on my Honda ST nor the linked system on my FJR ever bothered me. I made an effort to learn and understand the technology when I first got the bikes. I find it works great and I know that if (yeah right! I meant when.) I go down it will not be because of linked brakes.

I apologize for having too many quotes in this post, but I believe some of you may have missed my point, possibly due to my poor communication skills. In my first post in this thread I stated that the linked brakes had never caused me a problem when slowing or stopping.

The point I tried to make in my 2nd post was that I don't believe linking the brakes ever gave me an advantage over an unlinked system. Some of you may feel differently. I simply don't understand why you need linked brakes when unlinked would function as well or better.

I have not read every road test of every motorcycle, but never once do I remember a tester saying that any bike with unlinked brakes would be improved by a linked system.

I guess I am just an old fart that always thought the simplest solution was the best if it doesn't sacrifice performance.

Sorry if some of you felt this was an unfair criticism of FJR brakes.

 

[Pterodactyl]

Every test I've seen indicates that ABS does not decrease stopping distance any appreciable amount on a dry surface. It does allow the rider to maintain directional control under maxim braking.

 

[stealth1]

Every test I've seen indicates that ABS does not decrease stopping distance any appreciable amount on a dry surface. It does allow the rider to maintain directional control under maxim braking.

Don't always have a clean dry surface for stopping.

ABS and linking are 2 different animals.

You can have one without the other.