motoGP vs. Superbike

[2wheelingdawg]

Could somebody enlighten me a little on the bike racing divisions. What is MotoGP, and Superbike, and AMA. It all looks the same to me when i see it on TV. It would might be a little more fun to watch it if i understood the differences. I know they got something coming to Atlanta over Labor Day, i think it is. I have never seen an Idiots Guide to Road Racing available.

 

[colin]

Not the most authoritative source on the planet, but definitely get you going in the right direction.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_racing

 

[madmike2]

Could somebody enlighten me a little on the bike racing divisions. What is MotoGP, and Superbike, and AMA. It all looks the same to me when i see it on TV. It would might be a little more fun to watch it if i understood the differences. I know they got something coming to Atlanta over Labor Day, i think it is. I have never seen an Idiots Guide to Road Racing available.

That is the same problem most of us have. We are not bona fide, died-in-the-wool race fans so it all becomes "similar but different" to us.

Hopefully one of the knowledgeable members (Like feejer222 or Randy, et al) will chime in here and explain the variances. Like, what IS the difference between MotoGP and WSB, or are they different names for the same races and racers?

For one, MotoGP is "international" and run from Europe while AMA is within North America, but there are divisions within each governing body (i.e., engine size, etc.).

Maybe we need a primer "pinned" at the top of this section titled (to borrow from 2wheelingdawg's post): An Idiots Guide to Road Racing. Perhaps Randy will write one and ask one of the admins to do as suggested and "pin" it.

 

[El Toro]

Probably the biggest difference between MotoGP and FIM or AMA Superbike racing is the level of development of the bikes. MotoGP is the last bastion of nearly totally unbridled engine and suspension/chassis development. The restrictions are very modest. MotoGP level engine development is capable of 300 bhp/liter. MotoGP is highly secretive about details of what's been done. When the 990cc class ended in 2006 there was at least one book published that went into detail on the technology. When the 800cc class began in 2007 as the 990cc replacement, they continued onward and upward with pole and race lap records.

I spent some time with one of the consultants to the Ducati MotoGP bike development team last year, and it was absolutely fascinating to hear the sorts of things they were doing. Of course a race engine only has to last for the length of the race.... its not like having to provide a warranty or something.

In any event, Superbike is great fun, but in the US its pretty much the Ben Spies and Matt Mladdin Suzukifest. Count the GSX-Rs on the track at any AMA Superbike race. If you're not a Suzuki fan, there won't be much to root for. I don't follow Superbike, but I understand that AMA recently sold their interest, and there is now a lot of controversy over the new classes and rules that will be imposed by the new owners. Its covered to some extent in the bike magazines, like Cycle World, Motorcyclist, Sport Rider.

In Europe, Superbike seems more interesting, at least to me, but I wouldn't go out of my way to follow it.

MotoGP Premiere Class is the highest level for both riders and bike development. You cannot go out and buy ANYTHING similar, unless you got in on one of the 990cc series Ducatis that they were willing to sell to a handful of affecianados at the end of the 990cc era.

Go to https://www.motogp.com and check out MotoGP. Much of the content is free. There is a free video right at the top of the home page as of this writing (7/6/08). If you like the content, get a subscription. For a serious fan, its the best sports money you'll ever spend. Don't bother with the Hi Res package unless you've got a really great feed. My DSL is not up to it most of the time, even though the formal spec of my DSL service is above what's required. I usually drop down to the medium level resolution. I can still project it onto the plasma screen TV at an acceptable level of quality.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

What 'El Toro' said ^^^^.

Also, Moto GP bikes may bear hardly any relation to the motorcycles the companies currently offer for sale to the public; while Superbikes are (loosely) based on, for sale to the public, street models.

For example: the Ducati Superbikes are V-Twins (similar to yours.... ); while the Ducati Moto GP bike is a V-Four (un-obtainium).

In America, the AMA Formula Extreme class (FX) (aka, Daytona Superbike) is (loosely) based on production models -- but, the extent of modification from there is "unreal".... :blink:

 

[noob]

Isn't it also true that MotoGP bikes can have no production parts in them? Supposedly ea bike is a prototype, and in the Faster DVD I believe they alluded to ea one costing in the range of a million bucks?!?!

As mentioned, the MotoGP bikes are absolutely nothing like the Mfg street version, these things are extreme!

 

[feejer222]

MotoGP: 800cc fourstroke prototype machines that have as much connection to road bikes as F1 cars do to road cars. It's where the new stuff is developed like ABS brakes, (and just braking through to road bikes, traction control). It's also where the best racers in the world hang out. As far as the value of them is concerned, I don't think you could buy one. The factories lease them to various 'satelite' teams and take them back at the end of the year. I have heard that the Japanese manufacturers then have to destroy them or pay back huge tax allowances.

The support races for the MotoGP class are 125 and 250's. At the moment both still 2 strokes although there is talk of changing the 250's for a 600 four stroke class similar to the Moto GP class. These classes do a better job of feeding the MotoGP class than the superbike classes. For some reason the World superbike riders never seem to cut it when they move up to MotoGP and the best champions have usually come through from the 125 & 250 classes.

These 3 championships are raced throughout the year in 18 countries and has the longest season of all.

World Superbike: 1000cc road bikes with tens of thousands of dollarsworth of kit added, (suspension, brakes etc.). The kit has to be available to everyone, even if it is price prohibitive. They run on slicks and have 2 races in one day at every venue.

The support & feeder race for this class is the supersport class which has the same rules only on 600's they run only 1 race per event.

These race all over the world as does the MotoGP.

AMA The American version of World Superbikes and is currently going through major changes, Randy will be better informed to tell you about it.

BSB The British version of World Superbikes, and where a lot of foriegn riders come to hone their skills before moving up to World super's. Over the last few years we have had Japanese and Spanish British champions.

 

[GunMD]

I've read that the cost of leasing a MotoGP bike (as teams don't actually own them, the lease them and return them at the end of the season) is more like 3 to 4 million per bike, per season. MotoGP is big money. Huge money.

The descriptions above are all on the nose. To summarize (in my words):

MotoGP = Premier class (currently 800cc), manufacturers showcase of technology, races on every corner of the globe, Rules & regs are by FIM, promotion is by Dorna

WSBK (World Superbike) = 1000cc production based bikes, races on many of the same tracks at MotoGP, rules & regs by FIM, promotion by FGSport

AMA Superbike = 1000cc production based bikes, US tracks only, rules, regs, promotion AMA (will be DMG in 2009)

 

[2wheelingdawg]

I think i get it now. MotoGp is like Formula 1 is for race cars, top of the game and designed purely for the track, and not in the states, and Superbike is like Nascar, even though it is called stock car, there is nothing on the car stock, even though say a gsxr1000 is being raced, it still has to be in production to the public. Kind of like when Honda made the rc51 a few years ago.

 

[feejer222]

I think i get it now. MotoGp is like Formula 1 is for race cars, top of the game and designed purely for the track, and not in the states, and Superbike is like Nascar, even though it is called stock car, there is nothing on the car stock, even though say a gsxr1000 is being raced, it still has to be in production to the public. Kind of like when Honda made the rc51 a few years ago.

That's pretty much it. The 'homologation' rule is that there are 300 road bikes sold of the type being raced. Carl Fogarty ran a team for 3-4 years sponsored by Petronas. They created a bike from scratch, sadly a triple which never really competed. The story was that they didn't even make more than 200 let alone sell 300 for the road. However, it was good for the sport that a potential new manufacturer had arrived so I imagine a blind eye was turned. Had they won anything I am sure the matter would have been raised.

 

[GunMD]

<snip> and Superbike is like Nascar, even though it is called stock car, there is nothing on the car stock, even though say a gsxr1000 is being raced, it still has to be in production to the public. </snip>

Uhhh...well except the part where NASCRAP sucks (borrrrrrring). Oh, and those AMA guys can go left AND right.

NASCAR = "Rednecks takin' a left"



[shameless self promotion]

HERE are a few shots that I took at Miller Motorsports Park near Salt Lake City a few weeks ago. (A mix of AMA Superbike, AMA Supersport, and WSBK)

[/shameless self promotion]

 

[El Toro]

I think i get it now. MotoGp is like Formula 1 is for race cars, top of the game and designed purely for the track

One other difference between F1 and MotoGP is that although F1 engine development is more mature (pneumatic valve springs for a long time, for example, while MotoGP has just introduced them in the 800cc era), there is more freedom and flexibility for MotoGP engine developers. MotoGP still has a couple of tire suppliers, and every team is working with their own engine, rather than some homologation engine required (as in F1). Every team is wrestling with their own traction control.

The race in September at Indy is a great chance to see MotoGP first hand. There are still tickets as this is being written. In fact I think Cycle World has some discount program going for their subscribers.

Indianapolis knows how to deal with a 100,000 fans. Laguna Seca does not. Of the two venues, Indy is likely to be the smoother one, even though this is the inaugeral race.

I think MotoGP personalities are more interesting too. Look at Valentino Rossi riding with leathers that have been painted to look like the Italian National Soccer team, for example. I thought this showed disrespect for MotoGP, but it was still eye catching... Note that since he isn't winning he's gone back to sober colors.

The way MotoGP is playing out this year, Honda Racing Corporation supported Repsol Honda is 1st, Yamaha supported Fiat Yamaha is 2nd right now, and Ducati sponsored Ducati Marlboro is 3rd (and closing). Suzuki and Kawasaki are less competitive, and they tend to duke it out with satellite teams for Yamaha, Honda, and Ducati.

Its very exciting, and if you subscribe you can watch the races in real time, and you can also watch qualifying in real time, all commercial free. Then there are the videos of things like "the Paddock Girls," crashes, passes, interviews, medical reports, engine development news, etc.

I think the idea that AMA Superbike has become like NASCAR may be a fair statement. Although the Spies and Mladdin Suzukifest does involve both left and right hand turns, I'm snoozing by the middle. AMA got out while the gettin' was good.... Nuff said.

 

[2wheelingdawg]

not saying AMA was nascar, i hate nascar racing, just trying to compare it to something i was familiar with. Both are supposed to be stock, production based vehicles. although the Ford and Chevys on the track don't look like nothing i have ever seen except for the ford logo.

Thanks for the explanation. I at least have a basic idea of what i am watching on tv now.3

I live 5 miles from the speedway in Atlanta. You have no idea how bad i hate nascar and 2 race weekends a year. I am a prisoner from the traffic. Good excuse to plan a bike trip though???

 

[feejer222]

[shameless self promotion]HERE are a few shots that I took at Miller Motorsports Park near Salt Lake City a few weeks ago. (A mix of AMA Superbike, AMA Supersport, and WSBK)

[/shameless self promotion]

Nice pictures Gun, not as easy as it looks is it? I have given up, too frustrating. I also liked the software, very cool.

 

[GunMD]

[shameless self promotion]HERE are a few shots that I took at Miller Motorsports Park near Salt Lake City a few weeks ago. (A mix of AMA Superbike, AMA Supersport, and WSBK)

[/shameless self promotion]

Nice pictures Gun, not as easy as it looks is it? I have given up, too frustrating. I also liked the software, very cool.

No it isn't easy. My point of focus was off more than a few times. I did get quite a few good shots...but hell, I took 1500 shots over two days so the law of averages tells me that at least a few should be good.

Those are not the best of the bunch, just a few that I grabbed while playing with some new software. I might put together a collection of what I see as "the best" of my shots* in a week or two if everyone would like to see 'em.

*The best of my shots doesn't real say much. I'm not a photog. (I wish I was)

 

[Randy]

A bit of a primer on racing in the US.

There are 3 general classifications of racing in the US - club racing, national challenge racing, and pro racing.

Club racing is where the (no offense intended) average Joe can take his/her racebike out on the track for fun. Granted, some money is available through contingency and purses, however, it's mostly for trophies. There are a plethora of clubs in the US. I'll probably leave a few out, but the primary ones are WERA, CCS, CMRA, AFM, and CRA. There are a few others that are based on a single track - Loudon Road Race Series, Willow Springs Motorcycle Club, OMRRA, and WMRRA. There is also a group that focuses on vintage racing - AHRMA.

At these races, there is a long list of classes at each event based on bike size and modifications permitted. There are simply too many variations to list them all.

Next up is the National Challenge series of races. The 3 primary groups in the US are WERA, ASRA, and Moto-ST (an endurance series based on twins). Again, they each have groups of races based on bike size and amount of modifications. At these events, you'll see a combination of pro-level riders and some of the faster club racers.

The pro racing series in the US is the AMA series. There has been a lot of discussion on this group recently as the AMA recently put out RFPs (request for proposal) to sell the series. Although the contracts haven't been finalized, Daytona Motorsports Group (DMG) is going to be taking it over. There are currently 4 classifications of races at the AMA events - Supersport (600 cc bikes with limited modifications), Superstock (1000 cc bikes with limited modifications), Formula Extreme (600cc bikes with significant modifications) and Superbike (1000 cc bikes with significant modifications). The plans for this series in 2009 are still up in the air. Originally, DMG wanted the premier class to be Daytona Superbikes which were essentially 600cc bikes with significant modifications. There has been a lot of backlash on this and it's now looking like the premier class will remain 1000cc superbikes.

Here's a great source for the schedule of remaining races in 2009 https://www.roadracingworld.com/calendar/glance/

 

[NinjaChick]

Thanks to everyone who put their two cents in. I recently got bitten by the motorcycle racing bug when my husband and I went to the AMA Superbike races at Road America in Elhart Lake, WI. However, it has been difficult to figure out what the differences between the classes are and the differences between the plethora of different racing types. If anyone has any more links for perusing regarding this subject I would appreciate it. Thanks!

 

[Randy]

Thanks to everyone who put their two cents in. I recently got bitten by the motorcycle racing bug when my husband and I went to the AMA Superbike races at Road America in Elhart Lake, WI. However, it has been difficult to figure out what the differences between the classes are and the differences between the plethora of different racing types. If anyone has any more links for perusing regarding this subject I would appreciate it. Thanks!

Are you talking about the plethora or different racing types at an AMA event or the plethora of different racing types in the US? If you're talking about the plethora of different racing types in the US, after reading my post above, what additional information are you looking for?

 

[NinjaChick]

Thanks to everyone who put their two cents in. I recently got bitten by the motorcycle racing bug when my husband and I went to the AMA Superbike races at Road America in Elhart Lake, WI. However, it has been difficult to figure out what the differences between the classes are and the differences between the plethora of different racing types. If anyone has any more links for perusing regarding this subject I would appreciate it. Thanks!

Are you talking about the plethora or different racing types at an AMA event or the plethora of different racing types in the US? If you're talking about the plethora of different racing types in the US, after reading my post above, what additional information are you looking for?

Oh, just any good websites/resources that you would recommend to look at regarding the club racing mentioned above that would be a good place to start...