motorcyclist speeder charged with manslaughter

[v65]

Madmike maybe you're right if this is simply a case of a young officer making a bad choice, but now am I wondering what external pressures if any he had in making his decision. To flesh out my previous post:

1) How are officers performances judged? Is it by convictions? Would a high profile speeding incident enhance an officers career?

2) Are speeding cases easier to earn convictions than other cases?

sparky I think you misunderstood me since we seem to agree on officers tailgating. The last time I was ticketed it was by an officer that rode my *** down the freeway. I was so mad at the way he was driving that I almost earned myself more than a ticket. Apparently a traffic stop is not an appropriate time to be handing out driving instructions to officers of the law. Tailgating is dangerous and should be ticketed more often. I never see it ticketed, which comes back to my question. Why do I see speeders ticketed, even when risking high speed pursuits, when something I consider more dangerous is not?

 

[FJR_pig]

I never see it ticketed, which comes back to my question. Why do I see speeders ticketed, even when risking high speed pursuits, when something I consider more dangerous is not?

I used to regularly write people for following too closely before I got off the road in 2003. It's a huge problem in my state, probably the cause of over 50% of the crashes I investigated and I was able to work the violation pretty effectively on a bike (shhh, it was a BMW...).

How do you figure that you know what a person is getting a ticket for when you're driving by them? I wouldn't unless I was there. (Not trying to stir anything up here, just curious about that one)

 

[sparky3008]

Madmike maybe you're right if this is simply a case of a young officer making a bad choice, but now am I wondering what external pressures if any he had in making his decision. To flesh out my previous post:1) How are officers performances judged? Is it by convictions? Would a high profile speeding incident enhance an officers career?

2) Are speeding cases easier to earn convictions than other cases?

sparky I think you misunderstood me since we seem to agree on officers tailgating. The last time I was ticketed it was by an officer that rode my *** down the freeway. I was so mad at the way he was driving that I almost earned myself more than a ticket. Apparently a traffic stop is not an appropriate time to be handing out driving instructions to officers of the law. Tailgating is dangerous and should be ticketed more often. I never see it ticketed, which comes back to my question. Why do I see speeders ticketed, even when risking high speed pursuits, when something I consider more dangerous is not?

No I didn't misunderstand, just wanted to keep running my mouth

........."I guess having an officer tailgate you so he can get by you on the highway doesn't bother you. Why should they be able to enforce laws they themselves don't observe.

It may not be as dangerous, granted but it is no less breaking the law......"

I suppose that doesn't bother me because, believe it or not, sometimes the officer must get somewhere ASAP without using warnings (Code 2). Though it'd bother me a bit if I pulled into a hamburger stand and saw the same officer ahead of me in line. :dribble:

This whole thread has gone awry. The officer involved in the car chase made a terrible and tragic decision. Yes, he should have pursued the offender. When speed and control got "close" to being out-of-hand he should have ended his participation. I know a CHP officer who says he won't chase a sportbike unles he has another radio car in contact or a helicopter. There's just no way they can safely (for the bystanders/citizenry) complete the "capture" in a reasonably safe manner unless he is in a position to "trap" the bike. (Okay, motorgod, go ahead and roll your eyes.) In fact, it has been announced that the CHP intends to look at their pursuit policy this year. (I really don't want to imagine what the roadways would be like without the presence of traffic enforcement officers present, especially if its known they cannot pursue.)

Admittedly, it is difficult for the officer involved to exercise self-control when his adrenalin is flowing, but that's where policy and training are, theoretically, supposed to take over. What a shame that the state wants to prosecute the miscreant to the same extent as one who pulls a gun and kills an officer in cold blood during the execution of a felony. The cyclist did not try and run the officer down (ADW). How far back (distance in his mirrors) did he see the pursuit vehicle. If he saw lights 1/2 mile back, they "could" have been for anyone. I have a great deal of difficulty trying to reconcile these two offences and their attendant sentences. Perhaps these are the two polar extremes each side is arguing from.

The bottom line, if you get "lit-up", pull over. And for goodness sake, if you are a Law Enforcement Officer, don't post a picture of your GPS showing 144 MPH recorded top speed!

If a code 2 means tailgating to get them down the road faster then that code should be changed. I see many cops that could go to the right of someone but they just keep on the tail of the person in front until they move. I highly doubt if it was a code 2 he would just stay there.

 

[Fencer]

Admins I think this thread has changed to much and is raising the blood presssre a little to much.

Can I have a Second on closing this thread?

 

[Rogue]

Admins I think this thread has changed to much and is raising the blood presssre a little to much.
Can I have a Second on closing this thread?

Spoil Sport!

 

[SkooterG]

Cripes! Just came across this thread. Wish I hadn't.

Want my opinion? Too bad, you are going to get it anyway.

Everybody is bleeping expert around here. So I guess I am too.

Sparky - Dude, you got issues, and for the most part, you don't know WTF you are talking about. You have a clear bias against cops. Probably because your a trucker. Do you want some cheese with your wine? Before spouting a bunch of bile, why don't you go get yoursef some ed-u-ma-cation on the subject of which you speak. Oh wait, that would actually take some effort. Much easier to spout nonsense.

Jestal - stick to the technical things you know about. Whining about cops does not become you.

Motorgod - Went off the handle there bud. Can't blame you in a way what with the stupidity of a lot of posts, but it doesn't do you any service.

There, I guess I am done. A cop bashing thread - c'mon folks, aren't MOST of you better than that. I won't close it at this time as I don't think it has risen to the point that it needs to be, but really, I am embarrassed that a thread like this even exists on this forum.

Ok, I am off my soapbox........

Too-da-loo :bye:

 

[sparky3008]

Cripes! Just came across this thread. Wish I hadn't.
Want my opinion? Too bad, you are going to get it anyway.

Everybody is bleeping expert around here. So I guess I am too.

Sparky - Dude, you got issues, and for the most part, you don't know WTF you are talking about. You have a clear bias against cops. Probably because your a trucker. Do you want some cheese with your wine? Before spouting a bunch of bile, why don't you go get yoursef some ed-u-ma-cation on the subject of which you speak. Oh wait, that would actually take some effort. Much easier to spout nonsense.

Jestal - stick to the technical things you know about. Whining about cops does not become you.

Motorgod - Went off the handle there bud. Can't blame you in a way what with the stupidity of a lot of posts, but it doesn't do you any service.

There, I guess I am done. A cop bashing thread - c'mon folks, aren't MOST of you better than that. I won't close it at this time as I don't think it has risen to the point that it needs to be, but really, I am embarrassed that a thread like this even exists on this forum.

Ok, I am off my soapbox........

Too-da-loo :bye:

You want to spout at me give me one thing I said that was nonsense??? Until you can do that I hold everything I have said.

No one is whining about cops, I don't know any cops that deal drugs, rob stores, on and on but I know many that speed almost everyone I have ever met. I have family and close personal friends who are cops, undercover and patrol. This is one thing they all do. Then for that same person to stop me and have the nerve to ticket me for something they do no I will never see how that makes sense.

Education point me to your great wisdom because all you have is insults, go for it...

 

[toophast]

Motorgod,I love the new Avitar.

Mark

Mark: Nice try at returning sanity

Scooter: +1 :clapping:

I think misunderstandings abound in this thread, at the same time, some rather strong opnions that would be better kept to their owners are here too...

I do not feel revenue generation should be conducted with speed enforcement (or any other LEO activity like it). However, I do feel unsafe drivers (too fast, too slow, too close, too whatever...) should be ticketed and fined.

As to the origin of this thread ... if you don't know all the facts it's hard to have a valuable opnion...

(and that would be my unvaluable opnion )

 

[sparky3008]

A quote from another forum I thought was interesting on this subject.

Isn't it a wonder how a motorcyclist can be charged with the death of a police officer when the LEO was the driver of his own vehicle and caused his own death, yet, a cager can cause the death of a motorcyclist by their own negligent driving and be cited with something simple like a right of way violation?

 

[Mike-H]

sparky3008....+1 on that statement....too bad it's too true....

 

[SkooterG]

Isn't it a wonder how a motorcyclist can be charged with the death of a police officer when the LEO was the driver of his own vehicle and caused his own death, yet, a cager can cause the death of a motorcyclist by their own negligent driving and be cited with something simple like a right of way violation?

Isn't it a wonder? Not really.

If you or anyone else would actually bother to read the statutes (laws) you would understand how that happens. It all makes perfect sense. Not saying I agree with it, but it's all spelled out quite clearly in laws, depending somewhat of course on your local/state jurisdiction.

Real easy to take the easy way out and either contort, or pick and choose the facts to fit one's own little personal rant.

 

[sparky3008]

Isn't it a wonder how a motorcyclist can be charged with the death of a police officer when the LEO was the driver of his own vehicle and caused his own death, yet, a cager can cause the death of a motorcyclist by their own negligent driving and be cited with something simple like a right of way violation?

Isn't it a wonder? Not really.

If you or anyone else would actually bother to read the statutes (laws) you would understand how that happens. It all makes perfect sense. Not saying I agree with it, but it's all spelled out quite clearly in laws, depending somewhat of course on your local/state jurisdiction.

Real easy to take the easy way out and either contort, or pick and choose the facts to fit one's own little personal rant.

Skooter man I am not arguing law I am arguing logic.

Let me ask a question. If I have this kids tags why do I feel I have to chase him down? They still caught up with this kid later at his house to arrest him for these charges. As a cop why do I have to risk my life if I can just go wait for him there?

In my area traffic cameras are becoming huge. We don't even need to tie up a cop to do traffic duty with cameras so why put a cop in jeopardy over this?

Most of us are arguing from different points of view than others and mine is not that it was the cops duty. Mine is more of "Why should this be a cops duty". Many states don't want cops to chase and they have logical reasons why and this is an example of it.

Should this kid have stopped, Yes. I would never run from a cop but my brother did and died himself for it.

The cops knew where he was and waited for him to get back into the car before trying to stop him. Why didn't they get him inside the hotel???

Should this kid be charged with felony evasion, perhaps if it can be proved he knew he was being chased, but logic would say if he saw a cop and was doing 100mph he knew it was for him.

My take on the death sucks but should the kid be charged, my opinion no but from other similar cases he probably will.

Don't get onto me for education because my arguments are not about what the law says it is what logic should have said to that cop. He should have known his vehicle couldn't catch a motorcycle.

I would expect a cop to chase a bank robber but to take cover and protect himself also, not just stand straight up in plain view to be a nice target and get shot. Use your head...

 

[toophast]

Must not feed....must not feed...must not feed....... :boredom:

 

[sparky3008]

If you smoke and get cancer do you sue the cigerette company?

If you drink and your liver fails? Well you get the point. In todays world it seems normal to blame someone else for your bad choices.

This kid did 2 things very wrong but he didn't tell the cop to go past his limits.

Next time you are speeding keep this in mind I know just about all of you do.

If a cop coming the other way gets you on radar and makes a U-turn to get you and gets hit Tboned and either he or the other driver gets killed. Don't be surprised if this precident affect you also. The cop wouldn't have made the U-turn if you weren't speeding.

 

[SkooterG]

Must not feed....must not feed...must not feed....... :boredom:

I know. I feel your pain.

I swore to myself I would not post again after my initial post.

 

[sparky3008]

CVC 2800.3

( B) Whenever willful flight or attempt to elude a pursuing peace officer in violation of Section 2800.1 proximately causes death to a person, the person driving the persued vehicle, upon conviction, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for a term of 4, 6, or 10 years.

Here just to satisfy your education fix...

 

[Mike-H]

CVC 2800.3
( B) Whenever willful flight or attempt to elude a pursuing peace officer in violation of Section 2800.1 proximately causes death to a person, the person driving the persued vehicle, upon conviction, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for a term of 4, 6, or 10 years.

Here just to satisfy your education fix...

Sparky3008....ok bro you made your point....most of us agree....now let it go quietly into the dark night....Sparky....breath deep....I know your ticked....but let it go....com'n breath deep....relax....just keep breathing....

Dude your like a pitbull....let it go...

 

[v65]

Admins I think this thread has changed to much and is raising the blood presssre a little to much.
Can I have a Second on closing this thread?

Been reading over this whole thing:

+1

 

[worldbound4now]

As cruel as it is, this post is making me laugh as I sit at the sidelines. Thanks for the chuckles about some of the polarized statements. I'd love to see this converation continue over a few drinks at WFO.

By the way, I'd also laugh at a funeral if the deceased died under unusual circumstances. Maybe I've spent too much time working in the ER.

 

[NC_Yank]

I have been on both sides of the issue.

When I was younger, stationed in South Dakota I had a SD trooper attempt to pull me over.

At the time the our base policy was that if you get a ticket on a MC, you could bring

your bike on base. Living on base in the first base would require me to park it off base where

in all liklihood it would get stolen. Needless to say I put the bike in the wind and easily got away

from the trooper. However, I not only endangered my life, I endangered those around me.

I was clearly wrong and I knew it.

Fast foward 10 years later I became a police officer assigned to our traffic division.

I have investigated thousands of accidents with the overwhelming of those involving speed.

We have a fascination for speed.....especially guys, I think its in our genetic make up.

Police officers are told to protect and serve the public. The laws we enforce are not ones

we made up...........they are ones that public as asked us to enforce through legislation and regulations

they (the public) insisted upon.

We battled back and forth on the high speed chase issue. What it came down to is officers

discretion with the safety of the public as well as the officer being the primary deciding factor

when to break it off. The problem with the officer though is that you get a shot of adrenalin

in such events. Adrenalin can alter your judgment and an officer must recognize when this

is happening. To confront this issue our policy states that the patrol supervisor must actively

monitor the pursuit......keeping in mind the traffic condition, the speeds involved as well

as the level of emotion of the officer him/herself. When any of those three factors are exceeded

then the pursuit is broken off. It has worked very well.

In this incident we have a mc that knew he was speeding.

A trooper that saw such violation and decided to enforce the law.

The mc decided he did not want to get a ticket or more likely loose his bike, based upon

his reasoning he decides its worth the potential danger involved to out run the trooper.

(his attempting to run speaks to the conscious of his guilt)

The trooper in his zealousness to catch the violator failed to realize he was exceeding his

driving limit (adrenalin) and that of the SUV he was using. (I agree, SUV's should never be part of a traffic division / patrol tool......its assinine.)

While the trooper failed to recognize he was pushing himself and his SUV to far.....it was the action

of the MC which caused these series of events to happen.

Having a "no chase" policy is the politically correct answer. Such policies never work......they

are pro criminal at best..........kind of like the no gun laws.

Did the MC start the series of events that led to the troopers death? YES

Should the trooper have stopped the pursuit? YES

Is the trooper responsible for his own death? NO

Did the trooper training or lack thereof play a part in his death? YES

Should this be attributed to the trooper playing a part in his own death? NO

(Just as those in the military are sworn to protect our country, so are those

in law enforcement. I the military soldiers die all the time because they

failed to use what they were taught or not taught.......adrenalin factor again)

Are the charges appropriate? YES

I have often said that those that run are not trying to get out of the ticket but

the financial penalty or hardships that is exacted upon them.

(this is why I out ran the trooper when I was younger)

Most people dont mind paying the ticket...........its the other crap you have to

deal with as a result getting a ticket.....especially insurance companies.

I personally think that insurance companies should not use speeding tickets as

an avenue to raise ones rates. Accidents in which their client is at fault, yes.

Lastly, to address the revenue issue. I agree.........tickets should not be used

as a source of revenue. Many cities are using traffic cameras under the guise of

it being safer. That is BS..........other then the fact they are unconstitutional......they

are revenue generators, pure and simple.

NC