Not all Michelin's Are Created Equal

[hppants]

I've had a pretty good wrenching weekend on my FJR. One of my last projects is to spoon on a new Michelin front tire I bought about 6 weeks ago. The old BT021 on the front was so hard, to keep from damaging my rim paint, I finally cut the ba$tard off with my jigsaw and dremel tool.

The new tire spooned on easy enough yesterday, but for the next 2 hours, a neighbor and I tried to seat the bead with no success. We ran out of beer and gave up. And no - we didn't try the "lighter fluid" method. But we did try just about everything else.

So today, I brought the thing to my local Cycle Gear and low and behold, I had bought the wrong tire. I ordered a PR2 and was shipped a Michelin Pilot Power 2. This tire is made for sportbikes, and has a much lower load rating. Further, even though its the same size (120/70/ZR17), the Micheline Tech Support guy told us that the Pilot Power tire is several mm narrower than the Pilot Road tire. So, we likley never would have been able to seat it.

So, I bought a new PR3 from Cycle Gear and in 10 minutes I was on my way.

Wish I would have read the label on the tire. Anybody with a sport bike want to buy a new tire cheap? PM me if interested.

 

[SkooterG]

I am fairly certain there have been a very 'few' who run that tire on their FJR for more stick. I am surprised you couldn't get it seated.

 

[McRuss]

I've had a pretty good wrenching weekend on my FJR. One of my last projects is to spoon on a new Michelin front tire I bought about 6 weeks ago. The old BT021 on the front was so hard, to keep from damaging my rim paint, I finally cut the ba$tard off with my jigsaw and dremel tool.

The new tire spooned on easy enough yesterday, but for the next 2 hours, a neighbor and I tried to seat the bead with no success. We ran out of beer and gave up. And no - we didn't try the "lighter fluid" method. But we did try just about everything else.

I actually saw some guys try to seat a HD tire with starter fluid! It was pretty spectacular but didn't seat the tire! I just put two new PR2s on my '09 to replace the junk OEMs and although they are nice and round (and did spoon on and seat very nicely,) I now have a buzz that was not there before and has been attributed to the PR2s (See New Buzz thread.) I'm curious if you noticed the buzz. Just re-read your post. What is the rear tire? An old BT021?

 

[jtnwevo]

When I had a flat front PR2 in BFE Idaho all the local dealer had was a Pilot Power 2 in 120/70-17 and they installed it without issue. It wont last long but it fits fine...

 

[Harald]

I'm very surprised that the tire wouldn't seat also. Not sure what your tire mounting experience is, but a few tips for seating the bead:

Leave the valve core out when pumping air in to seat the bead. This allows more rapid pressure buildup in the tire.

Make sure the tire is lubed so it will pop into place easily and (very important) evenly.

Some might disagree, but I set the regulated air out of my compressor to 120psi for seating. This allows more rapid inrush of air to pop the bead in place. Obviously, don't keep adding air once the bead is seated unless you like dangerous explosions.

Related to the previous tip; don't try it with a mini compressor 'cause they don't generate enough air flow.

And finally, there's always the tie-down strap trick. Wrap a tie down strap around the circumference of the tire and tighten it up, which will force the tire bead closed to where it's gonna seat on the wheel.

 

[hppants]

I have a PR2 on the back with about 2K miles on it. Wearing very nicely and I should get about 6K or so from it. Hopefully the PR3 front will last 12K or so.

Interesting JT in that you got the Power to mount and seat.

The FJR must just eat tires. I have a friend with a ST1300, 90K miles - he runs PR2's and religiously gets 9-10 rear, and 12-15 front.

Here's a NEPRD for kicks and giggles - what tire pressure do ya'll run the PR3 front on? I'm not a very aggressive rider - more interested in mileage.

 

[SkooterG]

The FJR must just eat tires. I have a friend with a ST1300, 90K miles - he runs PR2's and religiously gets 9-10 rear, and 12-15 front.

Here's a NEPRD for kicks and giggles - what tire pressure do ya'll run the PR3 front on? I'm not a very aggressive rider - more interested in mileage.

It's not the FJR that eat's tires, it's the rider! My last set of PR2s I got 18k out of the rear, and about 17k out of the front. They were well worn however (well past the wear bars) and handled like complete ***. I won't take them that far again. But then I have a friend who never got more than 4500 miles out of ANY set of tires when he had an FJR. Freakin Hoon! So it's the rider, and other variables like how loaded the bike is, and the type of road surface. It's not the tires.

Most of us keep high pressures on our tires for longevity and reduced cupping. 40-42 psi front. 42-44 psi rear.

 

[hppants]

Harald - I've spooned on quite a few m/c tires and used all of the great tips you described in my quest to mount the Pilot Power. My shop compressor is a 30 gallon crapsman, but it will deliver enough air for the job.

Skooter - I run 42 in the back, I'll go with 40 in the front

 

[Fred W]

My last PR2 front was narrower than normal.

Normally, after spooning on, and careful positioning so none of the beads are too far into the "valley" of the rim, I just hit it with my (very low volume) old, small, decrepit air compressor and she seats right up. Some times I've had to press the tire thgis way or that to get a bead gap to seal, and start the inflation that eventually gets the job done. This time... no such luck. My guess is that the tire purveyor had stacked the tires horizontally for a period of time and the tire took a set to the squashed narrower profile.

Not to worry!!

I just took a standard ratcheting tie down strap and ran it around the outer most circumference of the tire, and then cinched it down. THe strap's force caused the beads to flare and touch the rim sides enough so they would seal and begin the inflation. As much as I'd like to take full credit for this genius, I didn't make this trick up. I read about it elsewhere. This was just the first time I ever needed to make use of the trick.

Bet it'll work.

PS - The southern sporty guys say to go with a PP front and Roadsmart rear for the hot setup.

 

[exskibum]

That's weird. I know Cdogman put Pilot Power 2CTs on his '06 when he was out here in '07 (they were available when he had a flat), and he's a big boy, plus he was 2 up and loaded for a multi week trip.

I mount and run Pilot Powers on my Blackbird that takes the same size tires as the FJR, and its rims are the same size as those on the FJR. The Blackbird rims (both OEM and aftermarket) are easier to mount than the FJR, but that probably has more to do with the well than the area where the bead seats. I've never put PRs on the Bird or PPs on the FJR, though.

I have a 25 gal 5.5 hp Craftsman compressor, use the same tricks (tie down strap) and lube it well. Don't know how many sets I've mounted now, but I've only really had trouble seating the bead once, and that was on the rear with my second B Spec PR2. Required me to re-lube it a couple or three times and to increase the cursing intensity -- it finally seated just before I was going to give up for the night.

I just purchased a clip on air chuck for the purpose of facilitating that occasional hard to seat job. That frees a hand for such desperate maneuvers as banging the tire on the floor (wheel vertical) at the point that refuses to seal/seat ** while strapped, lubed and technician in extreme curse mode.

** You know -- while air is rushing past the bead and you are frantically trying to get it to seal before the compressor's too low CFM rating is overcome by the rate at which the damn thing is losing air.

 

[Fred W]

The idea that a 120/70-17 PP2 has different dimensions is just wrong.

 

[hppants]

Agreed - it does sound unorthodox, but I know for a fact that not all tire sizes are consistent. I've seen this more than once with cage tires. My daughter's '99 Accord (160K - mint condition - great car BTW) has 2 differnt tires on the front and rear. Same spec size (205/65 -15), but the Mastercraft tire is absolutely wider and taller than the Pepboys brand. Well over a 1/2 inch in the diameter, and a 1/4 inch on the footprint (unloaded of course). I thought it was an illusion until I actually measured it.

With regard to the Mich PR2 v/s the Pilot Power, the Micheline Tech support rep was on speaker phone talking to us this morning. He clearly stated that he Power tire is narrower and a little shorter (to preserve aspect ratio I suppose). He said that with more effort, we could get the bead to seat and the tire would work, but it wouldn't last very long, and should not be used on my bike because of the lowered load rating.

I like the tread pattern on the PR3. I bet it performs well in wet weather.

 

[ahchiu]

It helps to unscrew the valve out of the stem then more air can enter the tire quicker to seat it.

 

[Fred W]

With regard to the Mich PR2 v/s the Pilot Power, the Micheline Tech support rep was on speaker phone talking to us this morning. He clearly stated that he Power tire is narrower and a little shorter (to preserve aspect ratio I suppose).

Yes, but these differences would be in the tire profile and cross section, not in the diameter and width of the bead, which is all that matters for getting them seated on a rim.

As for applicability to use on an FJR, he is definitely right that they would not last as long as a PR2 or PR3s. I'm pretty sure that the hot-shoes who are running the sport bike tires up front are using the regular Pilot Powers, not the multi compound PP2 that you have. And they expect them to wear out fast. They want all the stickiness they can get up front at any cost.

edit - FWIW, the Michelin "Fitment Guide" shows the PP overlapping the PR2 and PR3 in terms of Sport / Sport Touring functionality. Significantly, the PP2 is further left in the "Sport" category.

edit2 - Looking in that same fitment guide, Michelin provides all of the tire model specs and dimensions. The PP, PP2, PR2 and PR3 all have identical dimensions and load specs in the 120/70-17 size. I think the Tech Support guy was blowing smoke.

 

[McRuss]

PR2s, 42 front, 40 rear. Ride is a little harsh but mileage is much better, no cupping or weird wear on the front, rear stays round longer.

 

[hppants]

Fred - you are absolutely correct, thank you for pointing this out. According to the guide, they are exactly the same size tire, and have the same load rating. Obviously, the T/S guy on the phone had no idea what he was talking about.

Also interesting is that it appears that the PR3 will last longer than the PR2 would have. Hopefully I won't have any cupping problems with that tire.

So, I wonder why I was having so much trouble seating the bead? I tell you I tried everything ya'll have suggested, except the lighter fluid trick. Open valve stem, high volume compressor, lubrication, ratcheting strap, bouncing the tire. This wasn't my first rodeo - I've mounted and balanced quite a few bike tires before. I'm not God's gift to tires, but I've been around the block, sort o speak. A mystery, for sure.

Frankly, I'm just really glad to have my girl back together. With the fork seals, pinion seal, and now this, that makes 2 weekends in a row with no riding. Can you say.... withdrawal symptonms?

 

[Fred W]

So, I wonder why I was having so much trouble seating the bead?

I would guess that it's what I mentioned a bit earlier about the way the tires are stored after manufacturing. If your tire was at the bottom of a big stack of tires in a hot warehouse all summer, it could get compressed some by the weight and take a "set". It shouldn't really affect the tire once you get it mounted, but having the two beads closer together than normal does make it more difficult to seat the beads.

I've mounted a whole bunch of PR2 front tires (on my and other people's bikes). The last one I that bought and mounted this fall was the only one where the beads were closer together than normal with the tire in a relaxed state. And I had to use the ratchet strap trick and a bunch of bouncing to get it to seat up.

 

[exskibum]

So, I wonder why I was having so much trouble seating the bead? I tell you I tried everything ya'll have suggested, except the lighter fluid trick. Open valve stem, high volume compressor, lubrication, ratcheting strap, bouncing the tire. This wasn't my first rodeo - I've mounted and balanced quite a few bike tires before. I'm not God's gift to tires, but I've been around the block, sort o speak. A mystery, for sure.

The only thing that occurs to me is insufficient cursing, insufficient intensity of cursing or lack of creativity in stringing epithets together. That, and the fact that you probably just got that one in a thousand tire that is unusually difficult.

 

[SkooterG]

So, I wonder why I was having so much trouble seating the bead? I tell you I tried everything ya'll have suggested, except the lighter fluid trick. Open valve stem, high volume compressor, lubrication, ratcheting strap, bouncing the tire. This wasn't my first rodeo - I've mounted and balanced quite a few bike tires before. I'm not God's gift to tires, but I've been around the block, sort o speak. A mystery, for sure.

The only thing that occurs to me is insufficient cursing, insufficient intensity of cursing or lack of creativity in stringing epithets together. That, and the fact that you probably just got that one in a thousand tire that is unusually difficult.

+1

As usual, along comes Rich with the insightful and revealing input on the subject matter.