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warsw

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I will try to start at the beginning (sort of). First of all the ships you see at the terminals are not carrying gas. The super tankers and jumbo tankers are usually carrying crude oil. The smaller ships (T-2 tankers) that can carry around 100,000 barrels (1Bbl=42 gal) are used to carry the specialty products (fuel oil, Ave gas, lube oil base stock etc.) Most gas is transported by either pipeline or barge. The oil companies are the majority owners of the petroleum pipeline system in the US. A system so vast it can almost compare with the HWY system in the US. Southern Pacific is probably second.

You may see many different company ships loading or unloading at the same docks but the product is not all going to or coming from the same place. Chevron ships are pumping to Chevron tanks, Mobil to Mobil etc, etc,etc. These tanks may be miles away and not even visible but they are there.

Each refinery has its own buying group for furnishing crude to the refinery. They shop for price and availability. Crude is not just crude. Some crude’s are better for gas (more light ends) some are better for lube oil. Different crude’s have different properties that make them better suited for a specific product. Each refinery will order what crude they need and how much they want and set up a delivery date. They do not share with other oil companies even at this level.

Now lets go to the West Coast. This is where I spent most of my time. I did spend a little time at the refineries in Houston Texas and New Orleans but most of my time was on the West coast.

On the West coast there are two major refinery areas. (Anacortes, Washington and Martinez, California.)

In the Portland, OR. area, where I worked, all of our refined products (gas, diesel, Kerosene etc.) came out of Anacortes and our fuel oil and asphalt products came out of Martinez.

All of our gas, diesel and Kerosene came in by pipeline. This pipeline is owned and operated by the Olympic Pipe line Co. and all the major oil companies on the Oregon coast are connected to it. They would share time "not products".

The pipeline is 18-inch diameter and about 250 miles long so there are several different products from several different companies in the pipeline at any given time. There is a schedule given to each distribution plant so they will know when their product was going to arrive. As the time line got closer the times would be up dated. One hour before your product was to get to you, you would have your valves open and when your product arrived Olympic would open there valve to you and shut the valve going to who ever just got there’s. The guys at Olympic pipeline new exactly when your product was at your door and when it was time to make the switch. The way they would know was: They knew the exact batch size, exact pumping rate, and the pipe volume. They also had remote gravity meters at each switching station. They could see the product arrive because of the change in gravity.

There are several ways to keep the product separated while being pumped this 250miles. They would use high pressure (900psi), a rubber ball in the line and sometimes an interface material (which was a slop gas of some sort. Olympic pipeline would use all three at different parts of the pipeline. The ball and the interface would be retrieved at the different pumping station or pipeline junctions. The interface would be reinjected into the regular gas. Here is one for you Jestal. All the companies would get an equal dose of this interface, so I guess they are all the same gas, to a point.

Each company would get their own gas, diesel or Kerosene. The companies were very picky about this. Each distribution plant was charged for the gas they were sent so it better equal what was received.

In the 20yrs that I worked for this company I can only remember once that there was an interchange of gas. During the gas shortage in the late 70s every tank at every company along the pipeline was full. We were all trying to find a place to put our gas. The pipeline never stops. Some shortage ha.

Now it is in the tank and ready to truck to the stations. Most major oil companies have there own fleet of trucks. These are used to haul gas and diesel to the station flying their colors, Shell trucks-Shell station / Chevron trucks-Chevron station, you get the picture. Some stations are company own, some are leased and some are privately owned but ALL that carried the name were to use that company’s product. If caught other wise there were major penalties, loose your lease, loose your franchise (no more gas). The oil companies have a lot of power. If you are in the petroleum business you do not want to be on there bad side.

Now where the confusion starts. A lot stations flying their own colors, I call them cut-rate stations. They buy there gas where ever they can get the best buy. They will usually bid for ex amount of gallons and when that is used up they are out looking for more gas. You never know where they get their gas or whose gas you are getting or even what all is in it.

This is where the lack of additive package comes into play. The major oil companies will not sell their gas with their additive package through a station that is not carrying their banner. And they will not claim that gas as their own because they have no control over it. I am not going to plug any one company because they all make good gas and all the additive packages are good. But if you want to know that you are getting the same quality of gas each and every time you fill up, then stay with one of the major brands.

I hope this helps some. Some others I know could care less but remember it is TRUE, even though it all comes down the same pipe line it is not all the same gas. It is kept separate.

I hope this all makes some since. Writing a book is not my forte. That is why you don’t see warsw as the author of any major sellers and why I am still working for a living.

 
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Warsw -

A big [SIZE=14pt]THANK YOU [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]for starting a new post on the great debate that had been running over on the other thread. Also, this post is well written, I understood what you typed. I gotta give you credit for validating your position with detailed info. Thank you for that! [/SIZE]

Since I'm clueless, can't validate or refute, I'll just sit back and see what responses are generated as a result of your post. I have to say though, that by posting detailed info like you have, the chances of a dog pile are greatly lessened.. :rolleyes:

..now then, can you belive that my 06a is in the shop with low compression in cylinders 3&4 after only 23k miles? Who can we blame for that? I mean like geesh, a guy spends his hard earned money to buy a quality product and this happens? Why just the other day I was talking to my Harley friends and they told me... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: (sorry just couldn't resist!)

 
Warsw -A big [SIZE=14pt]THANK YOU [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]for starting a new post on the great debate that had been running over on the other thread. Also, this post is well written, I understood what you typed. I gotta give you credit for validating your position with detailed info. Thank you for that! [/SIZE]

Since I'm clueless, can't validate or refute, I'll just sit back and see what responses are generated as a result of your post. I have to say though, that by posting detailed info like you have, the chances of a dog pile are greatly lessened.. :rolleyes:

..now then, can you belive that my 06a is in the shop with low compression in cylinders 3&4 after only 23k miles? Who can we blame for that? I mean like geesh, a guy spends his hard earned money to buy a quality product and this happens? Why just the other day I was talking to my Harley friends and they told me... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: (sorry just couldn't resist!)
:lol: :lol: :lol: Touche

 
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Thanks for the info and detail.

I'm not quite sure, though, exactly what you presented is so totally different from my one paragraph summary. The cut rate stations get fuel from where-ever/whoever they can buy it from. Since it is cheaper it is likely to be cheaper for a reason...i.e...less additive package. That means that the additive package can be put in at the distribution point if gas is there without it. I mean, if only the reputable major refineries were shipping gas and all their gas was branded and had the right stuff in it then all the fuel at the distribution points would be "good" gas. Since it isn't how does that happen?? Away from the coast, here in the vast mid-west, the same terminals service/fill trucks from a variety of brands from the same pipeline. Same gas, different additives....like I said. Certainly your detail fleshes out that part of the story but it hardly makes me think I am totally wrong and writing crap as you originally suggested...or maybe that was somewhere else in my post. I spent one paragraph summing up the above, you added the detail. Sounds like the same basic story to me.

It may not be right and the owners may loose their franchise if they get caught but a lot of branded stations sell other fuel and inferior fuel....our little incident is proof of that. My warranty experience with a variety of fuel system components dating back to the mid 70's is proof of that. The Texaco station we ran into had been doing it for a long time and would still be doing it if not for our situation. Think all those customers in the mean time got "Texaco" gas. And besides, the startion was re-signed and operating again in a week under another brand. You think they changed their practices? So you cannot say that it doesn't happen and that I am an idiot for thinking such. Your story is how it is supposed to work. I have seen the result of my version of the story of how it really works some time.

What about a chain of stations in Northern Michigan up I-75 from Detroit. Same owner runs several different franchises. Same tankers haul to all of them. He owns the tankers and picks up/delivers his own fuel. Do you REALLY think I am to believe that I am always getting the correct branded gas from the different stations?

I ran a development drive trip once from Detroit to Denver to LA and back to Denver. We only filled the cars at major branded stations, period. I filled them and paid for the gas each time. By the time we drove from Denver to LA and back all of the cars were suddenly failing emissions badly. They were fine at altitude on the emission rolls at Denver and then failed a week later when we got back. ALL of the catalytic converters were totally poisoned by a heavy dose of silicone. Now I know that you would say that silicone is not put into gas and, of course, none of those major stations sold us anything but pure branded gasoline (I read your story). So how did we get silicone into the fuel tanks of all those cars given your scenario?

I would grant you that most of the stations most of the time do exactly like you say. That is why I always recommend to people to buy name branded fuel to improve their chances of getting a good product....but it is no guarantee at all. That is my point.

In any case, now that the issue of how the gasoline is distributed, what part of the additive/detergent reduction and re-instatement in the mid-80's that caused so many problems with injector and intake valve deposits don't you believe...??? Or ,was my off hand commentary on how gasline is distributed the only bone you had to pick?

 
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Another question does come to mind regarding the whole gasoline refining/distribution equation regardless of who is explaining it.....

Several years ago gas prices in the mid-east spiked significantly and all that was in the news was about a "refinery being down" or some excuse like that. This story seems to come up time and again when things happen (like Katrina).... What I cannot understand is how a certain Shell (for talking purposes only) refinery going down can cause all the other stations to have a supposed gas shortage and raise all their prices. If the majors protect their technology and product and all of the product is kept strictly segregated as you would imply then I would expect to see the Shell stations with "NO GAS" signs since "their" refinery was down and all the others doing business as usual. Don't happen. Never. All the brands are immediately affected by a shortage, real or otherwise. Making me think that any given refinery produces generic gasoline, sells it to a distributor that will pay for it and that the distributor then sells it with the appropriate additive package to the different local brands. Same gas, same pipeline, same source, different additves. Seems to fit the reality of the situations more than the idea that all the different brands of gas are produced separately and shipped separately and stored in different tanks....... Or maybe these situations are exceptions? Or do exceptions rule...??

This same sort of thing happened back in the early 80's I believe with ethylene glycol. A EG refinery burned and suddenly there was a shortage of EG. It affected everyone and every brand of coolant. Not just the Texaco refinery that burned down. I always suspected that gasoline was as much a commodity as ethylene glycol and sold to any and everyone from a given source/refinery and the end buyer put their brand on it along with their special additive package or magic chemistry...or lack there-of.

 
Good info. Thanks. What about the big marketers that don't fit into one of those descriptions. For example, most Costco's and Safeway's ( a Kroger owned grocery store for you folks back east) sell gas in large quantities. Do they contract with one of the petroleum companies for a certain amount or time then shop for the next deal when contract expires? I know I've seen independant distributers at some of the name branded stations locally. Sometimes even the same distributer at two stations across the street from each other. I'm not saying the product was the same, just wondering. Thanks again.

Jim

 
I'll relate an anecdote I feel is apropos: There was a time I was employed at an independent testing lab (Oil-Tec Laboratories) and at one time in our history we contracted to Shell (no particular axe to grind -- just the name of the company) to buy gas at local Shell stations (all grades) and put the pump nozzle directly into special one-gallon plated cans and then ship them back to Shell (Oklahoma, I think?).

We heard (don't remember how) that one station we tested, Plaza Shell, wasn't selling the correct stuff. For years after I thought of that whenever I passed that station -- and it's changed hands and brands over the years.

Don't know where this fits in the discussion? Maybe just grist for the mill -- maybe not? But, it happened....

 
30 years ago I filled up my company truck at a rural Alberta Shell station using the Regular (leaded) pump. About 10 miles from the station the truck started blowing white smoke and lost over half its power. It turned out that the trucker that delivered their gas put diesel into the regular gas tank.

And as a kid I remember seeing, on many occassions, one tanker truck dropping fuel at every gas station in town (and they weren't all flying the same colors). It only made economic sense because we were 2 hours from anywhere, but nobody will ever convince me that I get I'm getting exactly what I'm paying for when I stop at my friendly PetroCanada station.

I spent most of the 90's writing software for trucking companies and most of my customers were bulk fuel carriers. They carried petroleum products for all of the local oil companies and their trailers weren't, as a rule, restricted to a single product. That means on one trip they might be carrying Esso premium gasoline and on the next they'd be carrying Shell diesel. In the late 90's we had to modify our software to print on the bill of lading what the trailer currently contained AND what it contained on the last trip. If the two products weren't identical, the driver needed to carry documentation proving that the trailer was properly cleaned between loads. The reason, as I heard it, was because some truckers were caught hauling petroleum products one way and orange juice the other - and they weren't cleaning the tanks between loads. Something tells me orange juice isn't an approved gasoline additive.

 
The reason, as I heard it, was because some truckers were caught hauling petroleum products one way and orange juice the other - and they weren't cleaning the tanks between loads. Something tells me orange juice isn't an approved gasoline additive.
and I doubt that petroleum is a good OJ additive either... yuck.

 
Interesting stuff; I don't think we have the total answer yet and I believe the oil companies want it that way. I don't see too many branded trucks delivering gasoline in my neck of the woods (with the possible exception of Hess) but I do see alot of tanker trucks that have UPC (United Petroleum Carriers) on the side, which just keeps things a little murkier in the gasoline equation.

 
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I remember when the varios brands of gasoline were different colors. Sunoco was blue, Esso was red, etc. And they even smelled a little different, at least it seemed that way to me. Once I noticed that the differences in color and aroma went away I figured they were all pretty much the same and started buying at the lowest price station. So, I learned something about additives and differences in fuel.

Of the name brands in my area, Citco and Hess are typically priced pretty close to the no-name places. Should I consider these fuels as having inferior additive packages or is the price strictly a matter of market forces? I understand market forces a lot better than I understand petro-chemistry. B)

 
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Another question does come to mind regarding the whole gasoline refining/distribution equation regardless of who is explaining it.....
Several years ago gas prices in the mid-east spiked significantly and all that was in the news was about a "refinery being down" or some excuse like that. This story seems to come up time and again when things happen (like Katrina).... What I cannot understand is how a certain Shell (for talking purposes only) refinery going down can cause all the other stations to have a supposed gas shortage and raise all their prices. If the majors protect their technology and product and all of the product is kept strictly segregated as you would imply then I would expect to see the Shell stations with "NO GAS" signs since "their" refinery was down and all the others doing business as usual. Don't happen. Never. All the brands are immediately affected by a shortage, real or otherwise. Making me think that any given refinery produces generic gasoline, sells it to a distributor that will pay for it and that the distributor then sells it with the appropriate additive package to the different local brands. Same gas, same pipeline, same source, different additves. Seems to fit the reality of the situations more than the idea that all the different brands of gas are produced separately and shipped separately and stored in different tanks....... Or maybe these situations are exceptions? Or do exceptions rule...??

This same sort of thing happened back in the early 80's I believe with ethylene glycol. A EG refinery burned and suddenly there was a shortage of EG. It affected everyone and every brand of coolant. Not just the Texaco refinery that burned down. I always suspected that gasoline was as much a commodity as ethylene glycol and sold to any and everyone from a given source/refinery and the end buyer put their brand on it along with their special additive package or magic chemistry...or lack there-of.
The Oil companies will use any excuse they can come up with to maintain or raise the price of their products; this is very obvious right now. They really don't care much if you are smart enough to see right past their reasoning. They know they have the upper hand and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. When anything happens, be it real or fictional they all jump on the bandwagon to get their prices up. The refineries have the capacity to carry themself for quite a while. When they get going again, which is way sooner than they will have you believe, they just fill their tanks up again. They very seldom run at full capacity even though they try to convince the world other wise.

 
It's a conspiracy I tell you...

All I can say is I did work for a little 4 pump gas station in the early 80's, pumping gas (yeah we were still a full service station, and one of the last ones around, but that was our schtick). I wasn't there very long, a few months, it was a job to fill in the spaces between jobs.

We didn't have a 'brand' that I was aware of, and I have no clue about the mechanics of striking a deal for the next load, but I doubt we had the best stuff, or the worst stuff. I only recall a 'generic' non branded truck making deliveries.

I did see a 'BP' colored truck delivering at a Super America last fall, while waiting up to meet Fencer before EOM. He did walk over and strike up a 'bike' conversation. I didn't think to ask him if he was at the wrong station.

So take that for what it's worth.

Thanks Warsw for the added info.

 
Thanks for the info and detail.
I'm not quite sure, though, exactly what you presented is so totally different from my one paragraph summary. The cut rate stations get fuel from where-ever/whoever they can buy it from. Since it is cheaper it is likely to be cheaper for a reason...i.e...less additive package. That means that the additive package can be put in at the distribution point if gas is there without it. I mean, if only the reputable major refineries were shipping gas and all their gas was branded and had the right stuff in it then all the fuel at the distribution points would be "good" gas. Since it isn't how does that happen?? Away from the coast, here in the vast mid-west, the same terminals service/fill trucks from a variety of brands from the same pipeline. Same gas, different additives....like I said. Certainly your detail fleshes out that part of the story but it hardly makes me think I am totally wrong and writing crap as you originally suggested...or maybe that was somewhere else in my post. I spent one paragraph summing up the above, you added the detail. Sounds like the same basic story to me.

It may not be right and the owners may loose their franchise if they get caught but a lot of branded stations sell other fuel and inferior fuel....our little incident is proof of that. My warranty experience with a variety of fuel system components dating back to the mid 70's is proof of that. The Texaco station we ran into had been doing it for a long time and would still be doing it if not for our situation. Think all those customers in the mean time got "Texaco" gas. And besides, the startion was re-signed and operating again in a week under another brand. You think they changed their practices? So you cannot say that it doesn't happen and that I am an idiot for thinking such. Your story is how it is supposed to work. I have seen the result of my version of the story of how it really works some time.

What about a chain of stations in Northern Michigan up I-75 from Detroit. Same owner runs several different franchises. Same tankers haul to all of them. He owns the tankers and picks up/delivers his own fuel. Do you REALLY think I am to believe that I am always getting the correct branded gas from the different stations?

I ran a development drive trip once from Detroit to Denver to LA and back to Denver. We only filled the cars at major branded stations, period. I filled them and paid for the gas each time. By the time we drove from Denver to LA and back all of the cars were suddenly failing emissions badly. They were fine at altitude on the emission rolls at Denver and then failed a week later when we got back. ALL of the catalytic converters were totally poisoned by a heavy dose of silicone. Now I know that you would say that silicone is not put into gas and, of course, none of those major stations sold us anything but pure branded gasoline (I read your story). So how did we get silicone into the fuel tanks of all those cars given your scenario?

I would grant you that most of the stations most of the time do exactly like you say. That is why I always recommend to people to buy name branded fuel to improve their chances of getting a good product....but it is no guarantee at all. That is my point.

In any case, now that the issue of how the gasoline is distributed, what part of the additive/detergent reduction and re-instatement in the mid-80's that caused so many problems with injector and intake valve deposits don't you believe...??? Or ,was my off hand commentary on how gasline is distributed the only bone you had to pick?
Jestal you are starting to get a little cold again. The world is not a utopia and there is cheating that does go on. The major oil companies are very proud of their products and try to keep this to a minimum. Some cheating slips by as it does world wide in every other aspect of our lives. But I guaranty you that all the gas does NOT go into one big vat and all the oil companies draw from it. In your position you should be able to get together with the managers or their reps of any of the major oil companies. I am sure that they would love to give you a run down of how it works. They usually have people that will even give you a tour and explain how there operation works if you set something up in advance. I did this at the Chevron refinery in Salt Lake City. On the most part they are very friendly.

 
In any case, now that the issue of how the gasoline is distributed, what part of the additive/detergent reduction and re-instatement in the mid-80's that caused so many problems with injector and intake valve deposits don't you believe...??? Or ,was my off hand commentary on how gasline is distributed the only bone you had to pick?
I worked for the oil companies from 1967 to 2002 and during that time I can not remember them every stopping the use of their additive package in there gasoline. They do however constantly reformulate and try to up grade their additives. I do remember sometime back, it could have been in the late 70's or early 80's, that Shell changed their additive and added more cleaner (detergent), I think this was to help with cleaning the fuel injector nozzles in the, then, newer cars. This did cause some problems with some of the older cars. The cleaner was not only cleaning up the injectors but the whole fuel system including the gas tank. They ended up going back to their old formula until they could get this resolved. Saving money wasn't the driving force. Getting something that worked was.

 
I spent most of the 90's writing software for trucking companies and most of my customers were bulk fuel carriers. They carried petroleum products for all of the local oil companies and their trailers weren't, as a rule, restricted to a single product. That means on one trip they might be carrying Esso premium gasoline and on the next they'd be carrying Shell diesel. In the late 90's we had to modify our software to print on the bill of lading what the trailer currently contained AND what it contained on the last trip. If the two products weren't identical, the driver needed to carry documentation proving that the trailer was properly cleaned between loads. The reason, as I heard it, was because some truckers were caught hauling petroleum products one way and orange juice the other - and they weren't cleaning the tanks between loads. Something tells me orange juice isn't an approved gasoline additive.
You will alway here strange stories like this. I would suspect that most are not true.

The reason they flush the truck between loads is for product contamination. For instance you can not load Diesel on a truck if it's previous load was gas with out first flushing the truck to get all the residual gas out. Any gas left on board would lower the flash point to the point that diesel would be out of spec. The way we would do this is: First drain all gas from each compartment then add around 200 gal of diesel to each compartment and drive the truck around to help wash out any remaining gas. We would then drain the tanks again and then proceed to load the truck with diesel. Some other products are more sensitive and the truck needs steamed, then flushed, before it can be loaded.

The food industry has major watchdogs and the liability for food contamination is way to hi to take chances. I really don’t think you will see a Chevron truck going down the road with orange juice in it. :lol:

 

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