PowerCommander Warning...

[Metric]

How many of you guys that have PowerCommanders bought them off of Ebay? I just spoke to them earlier tonight and found out some interesting information. Seems that DynoJet is hopping on the 'regulated prices' bandwagon. The first step is that no warranties will be honored for units bought off of Ebay. If you have a problem or a failure and need the unit worked on/replaced, they will require a receipt with and autorized dealers name on it. And if it notes that it was an Ebay purchase, then you are stuck....no warranty, no assistance. They will direct you back to that dealer and expect them to exchange the item at their expense. DynoJet has a Zero Tolerance policy already in effect for ALL Ebay purchases.

The next step from here will be a minimum dollar amount that any dealer can sell for. If a dealer gets caught selling for less then the amount they specify (which will probably be full list), then DynoJet will suspend their account indefinetly. They wouldn't give me a time line on when that will happen though. So if you're looking to get a PowerCommander for your machine and you can get it cheap somewhere besides Ebay, better do it soon. My guess is sometime close to the first of the year they are going to start implementing this standard.

 

[radman]

Gary at U motors supplied mine, no worries. He wasn't the absolute cheapest around, but it was damn good, and I knew any problem would be handled with Garys usual expertise.

 

[Flylooper]

How many of you guys that have PowerCommanders bought them off of Ebay? I just spoke to them earlier tonight and found out some interesting information. Seems that DynoJet is hopping on the 'regulated prices' bandwagon. The first step is that no warranties will be honored for units bought off of Ebay. If you have a problem or a failure and need the unit worked on/replaced, they will require a receipt with and autorized dealers name on it. And if it notes that it was an Ebay purchase, then you are stuck....no warranty, no assistance. They will direct you back to that dealer and expect them to exchange the item at their expense. DynoJet has a Zero Tolerance policy already in effect for ALL Ebay purchases.
The next step from here will be a minimum dollar amount that any dealer can sell for. If a dealer gets caught selling for less then the amount they specify (which will probably be full list), then DynoJet will suspend their account indefinetly. They wouldn't give me a time line on when that will happen though. So if you're looking to get a PowerCommander for your machine and you can get it cheap somewhere besides Ebay, better do it soon. My guess is sometime close to the first of the year they are going to start implementing this standard.

Don't know if that is actually legal. The onus is on them to ensure that their units don't enter the gray market. Someone at Power Commander sold a boatload of them to someone and saw a big fat sale in the process. Then, after they move the units they try to restrict the final sale? Go figure.

In any event, they're going to cut their own throats as that kind of restriction will invite some enterprising engineer to fabricate a competitive unit.

I bought my Garmin 2610 as a significant discount on Ebay. Moreover, it was a factory remanufactured unit. When I tore the screen and I sent it to Garmin to be repaired, they not only fixed it, but they did it under the factory warranty. No charge!

That kind of customer support is worth it's weight in gold INHO and generates nothing but goodwill on my part. I've since ordered other parts from Garmin directly.

I don't know why companies think they can call all the shots like that. It tells me that have no idea about the notion that "the customer is king." They call it supporting their distribution chain, but sooner or later it catches up to them when sales to thier outlets start falling.

Short term win and long term loss, I think.

 

[Bounce]

Arai put the kaibosh on the "mail order" sale of their helmets several years ago. It was under the guise of insuring a proper fit and customer support but was really a move to shore up their dealer network from places that had lower overhead. I don't know how badly their sales were impacted, but they were impacted since quite a few people refused to buy from them after that.

There are anti price fixing laws in the USA and that's why the term MSRP exists (manufacturer's SUGGESTED retail price). A mfgr can't set a price, but I think they can set a "minimum" price under threat of someone losing their dealership.

In any case it's definitely anti-competition. If Dynojet gets their per-unit price whose business is it for them to be worried about how much profit margin someone is willing to live with? As long as no one is fabricating knock offs that puts them on the hook to support (or selling stolen goods on ebay) it should be no big deal.

 

[Metric]

Yes the guys at DynoJet make their money either way. The problem comes when their dealers that aren't selling on Ebay start coming to them and asking for the unit cheaper. Dealers want them cheaper because they can't sell them and make any money off of them because of Ebay. So then DynoJet starts feeling the pressure. Basically companies are going to this standard because they feel that the competition on Ebay is hurting the value of their product. It is good for the consumer I know, but as a dealer (not for DynoJet yet, probably not until they start price regulateing) I like it. I'm still small and rules like this help me be able to sell more products. Every dollar counts for the little guys and that makes it really really hard to compete with the established companies. In the long run the consumer gets something in exchange....good customer service. Customer service just about doesn't exist with some companies anymore. They know they don't have to because you are going to buy from them anyway. If you level the playing field for everyone, service after the sale becomes more important to keep people coming back. I.E.....if you can't get your PowerCommander software to work...you call the place you bought it from and they will be more likely to help you work through it then just telling you to read the directions and figure it out. Maybe that isn't the best example but its all I have. And I'm not saying that all dealers do that, but a lot of them do. I hear it all the time.

I started this discussion at my other favorite forum. That was my response to basically the same thoughts.

 

[Geezer]

Isn't that the point of capitalism? It works because people are rewarded to innovate. If a seller can't compete with the more aggressive retailers who are willing to take advantage of the latest technology then they are no longer doing what it takes to stay in business. They either have to offer something more to the customer than what the internet seller can offer so the customer perceives value for the higher price, or they learn to use the new technology. Many retailers are doing both. They have a low cost (and low price) internet operation and a brick-and-mortar store which offers more service and charges higher prices.

 

[mdisher]

Nothing at all wrong with manufacturers setting MSRP (Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price) as others have pointed out, or even having a MAP (Minimum Advertised Pricing).

In the end what a dealer sells it for is their business, that's just the way it works.

Yes, buyer beware, sometimes saving money doesn't save you money.

BTW, if you look hard enough you can find Arai helmets on the net. Prices might not be advertised, but you can.

As a dealer (of anything) I want the ability to sell what ever I have any way I choose to sell it. Along the lines of "You get what you pay for", if you don't like my pricing or the support that I provide, and that isn't worth something to you then I honestly don't need or want to sell to you.

There is often a cost involved with saving money. Lots of companies have gone with 'Pricing' and 'Internet Pricing'

If you buy a widget from them 'Pricing" includes support an installation. If you choose 'Internet Pricing', you still get your widget, but it comes drop shipped. You uncrate it, set it up, configure it, etc, etc. There is no training and very little support. After all, you didn't pay for that.

Helmets, radar detectors, GPS units, Extended Yamaha Warranties, it makes no difference, as long as you know what you're getting in the end and are willing to live with it have at it.

As a consumer I want good service and value. If I can find it, great, if I can't, well then I won't buy. 'Value' is subjective. I may not need the support and services you are offering for additional cost, so why should I pay for something I won't use?

Good support and service has a price. Anyone that's ever done business in any way knows this. Sometimes I'm willing to pay for that sometimes I'm not. Sometimes I just want cheap.

-MD

 

[Metric]

I understand what you guys are saying and agree from the consumer side. But being a dealer (not for DynoJet), I also understand that side of things. In then end though, the manufacturers are adopting these standards or at least moving that direction. I have already signed such agreements with three distributors/manufacturers in order to be able to carry their products. Each of these companies does allow you to go below these prices in specific occasions. Such as a 'group buy' offer on a forum. But they will lay out a time line for the offer and will then work on a price with me. So the minimum prices are not set in stone per say. None of them, how ever will allow any price breaks on Ebay or advertising of a lower price on a website. Breaking those rules means I will not be allowed to sell their products any longer.

 

[mdisher]

I understand what you guys are saying and agree from the consumer side. But being a dealer (not for DynoJet), I also understand that side of things. In then end though, the manufacturers are adopting these standards or at least moving that direction. I have already signed such agreements with three distributors/manufacturers in order to be able to carry their products. Each of these companies does allow you to go below these prices in specific occasions. Such as a 'group buy' offer on a forum. But they will lay out a time line for the offer and will then work on a price with me. So the minimum prices are not set in stone per say. None of them, how ever will allow any price breaks on Ebay or advertising of a lower price on a website. Breaking those rules means I will not be allowed to sell their products any longer.

Yep, nothing wrong with attempting to enforce Minimum advertised prices.

People will always 'game' the system though.

It does suck when you (being an actual dealer) aren't able to make a buck or compete. The manufacturers and distributors have nothing else to fall back to except to say "We won't support those units".

It's a shitty deal, no doubt about it.

 

[quicksilver]

It seems the only way they could hope to enforce that is to have a buy back policy with the dealers.

You sell something wholesale, put a minimim sale price on it, expect the dealer to pay inventory tax, take up shelf space, and not permit them a way to unload it.

Could you imagine being a dealer and not having any way to unload excess inventory. That's a bad business model. If the factory won't take it back, sooner or later, you have to get it of your books. That's where Ebay comes in. That's life in the real world.

You'll be hard pressed to find advertised prices for Joe Rocket stuff at dealers. But there sure is a shit load of last year's designs new on Ebay.

Supply and Demand.

 

[Metric]

It seems the only way they could hope to enforce that is to have a buy back policy with the dealers.
You sell something wholesale, put a minimim sale price on it, expect the dealer to pay inventory tax, take up shelf space, and not permit them a way to unload it.

Could you imagine being a dealer and not having any way to unload excess inventory. That's a bad business model. If the factory won't take it back, sooner or later, you have to get it of your books. That's where Ebay comes in. That's life in the real world.

You'll be hard pressed to find advertised prices for Joe Rocket stuff at dealers. But there sure is a shit load of last year's designs new on Ebay.

Supply and Demand.

I don't think an old model of something is going to be an issue. All I would need to do is let them (dist/man) know that I'm doing it and why. They know that it has been replaced, they don't want to take it back, they're going to let me unload it.

Where this comes from is current products. The reason the guy who is stocking them can't sell them off of his shelf is because everyone that comes into his shop and asks for a price leaves because it is cheaper online. If he can't find it online any cheaper, then he will buy it from his local dealer or at least the dealer will have a better chance.

As far as excess inventory goes, all the dealers that I am currently dealing with have no problem with me returning items if I can't sell them. I just did it recently with a Suzuki TRE. The distributor can't keep them on his shelf, but I can't attract any attention to them. He took them back and gave me a full refund. If something sells, there probably isn't a need for a buy back program. And if a dealer ends up with a bunch of something on his shelf, he is at least partially to blame for not managing his stock better. I know that when I pick up a new product, I am cautious with the first couple of orders until I figure out how fast something is going to move. Case in point, the Suzuki TRE...ordered two only, sold one in six months. From now on I will only order them if someone orders one, then I'll have it drop shipped.

Ebay has a place, but unfortunately it is a changeing place. Eventually it will go back to what it was intended for....a large garage sale. Maybe not completely, but I suspect that most reputable manufacturers are going to start restricting how there products are sold on Ebay. It is already happening in the motorcycle industry and if I had to guess, I would say that it is happening with other products also. It just not widely known yet.

 

[ejworthen]

Ebay has a place, but unfortunately it is a changeing place. Eventually it will go back to what it was intended for....a large garage sale. Maybe not completely, but I suspect that most reputable manufacturers are going to start restricting how there products are sold on Ebay. It is already happening in the motorcycle industry and if I had to guess, I would say that it is happening with other products also. It just not widely known yet.

I don't agree with this. Manufacturers are going to have to learn to deal with eBay and other internet outlets just like the music industry had to deal with file sharing by offering music on-line. They can't just stick their heads in the sand and hope eBay goes away. They are going to have to embrace these new sales models one way or another. People want a good price on goods and are going to find a way to get it.

I noticed a lot of eBay sellers are offering repair and replacement services on items that are sold on eBay recently. Specifically items that the manufacturer states are not covered if bought on eBay. I'm wondering if they are accepting the returns and then sending them back to the manufacturer as defects. Since most of these items are electronics, I would suspect the failure rate is pretty low.

Technology changes the world, the world doesn't change technology.

 

[Metric]

Music is not the same as other goods. All it takes is for one person to buy a CD and then everyone can listen to it. If you buy a PowerCommander, it is only good on one bike at a time. There for it is much easier to control how it is distributed.

 

[Bounce]

Nothing at all wrong with manufacturers setting MSRP (Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price) as others have pointed out, or even having a MAP (Minimum Advertised Pricing).
In the end what a dealer sells it for is their business, that's just the way it works.

Yes, buyer beware, sometimes saving money doesn't save you money.

BTW, if you look hard enough you can find Arai helmets on the net. Prices might not be advertised, but you can.

As a dealer (of anything) I want the ability to sell what ever I have any way I choose to sell it. Along the lines of "You get what you pay for", if you don't like my pricing or the support that I provide, and that isn't worth something to you then I honestly don't need or want to sell to you.

There is often a cost involved with saving money. Lots of companies have gone with 'Pricing' and 'Internet Pricing'

If you buy a widget from them 'Pricing" includes support an installation. If you choose 'Internet Pricing', you still get your widget, but it comes drop shipped. You uncrate it, set it up, configure it, etc, etc. There is no training and very little support. After all, you didn't pay for that.

Helmets, radar detectors, GPS units, Extended Yamaha Warranties, it makes no difference, as long as you know what you're getting in the end and are willing to live with it have at it.

As a consumer I want good service and value. If I can find it, great, if I can't, well then I won't buy. 'Value' is subjective. I may not need the support and services you are offering for additional cost, so why should I pay for something I won't use?

Good support and service has a price. Anyone that's ever done business in any way knows this. Sometimes I'm willing to pay for that sometimes I'm not. Sometimes I just want cheap.

-MD

that may be the best description (of the point i was trying to make) that i have ever seen. thanks!

the whole pricing v internet pricing nailed it. why should anyone pay a premium for "support" they would never use? i advise people all the time on computer equipment and software. some people are guided toward a higher-priced source simply because it does bring the "hand holding" to their table. would i pay for store-front, dealer prep, on-site support? probably not at home since i have time more than i have money. at the office it would depend because, for them, time IS money and that level of support is worth the cost. same with bikes/gear/etc (or anything really).

clamping down and "abolishing" the option to buy for price and forego "hand holding" isn't the solution (imo).

 

[ejworthen]

Music is not the same as other goods. All it takes is for one person to buy a CD and then everyone can listen to it. If you buy a PowerCommander, it is only good on one bike at a time. There for it is much easier to control how it is distributed.

You miss the point. Manufacturers need to get with the times. eBay is big and getting bigger, they are not going away. I think your assumption that it will go back to a big garage sale is out of touch with reality. Even some manufacturers are starting to sell direct to the consumer on eBay. I'm talking about big players like Dell.

They huge growth of eBay has shown what consumers want. For a manufacturer like Dynojet and others to ignore it is a huge mistake, just like the recording industry ignoring file sharing was a huge mistake. I am in no way comparing a PowerCommander to music. I'm comparing the way the two industries have chosen to ignore what people want. Seem's to me Dynojet is sticking their head in the sand and hoping the problem will go away instead of actually trying to please the consumer.

They should be trying to find a way to utilize eBay instead of keeping their products off of it.

 

[Metric]

I understand what you are saying. I didn't realize that Dell was selling direct on ebay either. That is very interesting to me when you compare what this whole thread is about. I'm not an advocate for what DynoJet (or any of the other manufacturers) have started doing. It is good for me as a small dealer trying to make my way. But eventually it will work against me also. I do have a behind the scenes view (a small one anyway) of what manufactures in the powersports industry are starting to lean toward...unfortuantly it isn't the same as Dell.

 

[ejworthen]

I can see how a company like Dynojet instituting a policy like this would be good for you. You deserve to make a buck just like everyone else.

The problem with these internet and eBay stores is they have almost zero overhead since most these businesses are run out of homes. Often many of their products are drop shipped so they don’t even have to keep many things in stock. This makes it almost impossible for most places with an actual store front to compete.

 

[GA CYCLE RIDER]

Regarding the earlier comment about Arai helmet policy of no internet/ mail order sales. Arai has caved in and now has "Arai certified E-tail dealers". Good lesson to Arai. Dont try to price fix your already high dollar helmets and quit restricting the sales of your product to those of us who know what we want without having to go to local stealer who wants to protect your head in one regard but then knock it off when you here the price. For those who want to order an Arai helmet, just contact that most excellent dealer that supports the FJR community located in Fargo ND. University Motors!