Practicing my new Lee Parks throttle-brake technique

[James Burleigh]

In the MSF they teach you to angle your wrist downward when you engage the throttle so you don't accidentally give it too much gas at the wrong time. So that's how I've been riding because that's where I got comfortable. So when I read about engaging the brake and throttle simultaneously I couldn't figure out how to do it because it requires you to violate the broken-wrist style, or in any case wasn't something I was used to. Then I took the Lee Parks class.

When Lee Parks last weekend was sitting on the bike with the class around him and demonstrating while stopped the method of accelerating while letting the brake off and decelerating while engaging the brake in order to keep the suspension from diving or jumping (in order to be absolutely smooth), I noticed that when he first put his hand on the throttle, he didn't just put it a little forward, he wrapped his hand as far forward around the front of the throttle as you possibly could so that he could put two fingers forward onto the brake lever, where they could engage the brake at any speed.

So we practiced that, engaging the throttle and brake simultaneously, working to transition from acceleration to stopping smoothly without jolting the suspension as happens with the usual binary on or off the throttle and brake. He said this skill is what separated riders with good skills from riders with great skills. It's most important in approaching and entering turns, when you want to keep your suspension settled. In turns it's called trail braking, meaning you are still on the brakes as you start to lean the bike over, then trail off the brakes. You use front and rear BTW. He also pointed out how much safer it is, since you are immediately on the brakes in an emergency.

I've been practicing that now on my own. Don't try it so much in first gear; the bike gets too jumpy if you bring it down to idle. Try it on the freeway while in the higher gears, just rolling on and off while keeping the suspension smooth and even. The idea is to get to the point where it's second nature, and the forks never dive.

It takes a lot of getting used to, wrapping my hand so aggressively forward on the throttle. But I'm getting there.

Jb

 

[krashdragon]

Interesting.... I usually wrap my hand around the throttle a bit to start because...

1. I don't have cruise control...

2. It keeps my wrists level when riding and they don't hurt so much.... (old age sucks)

what's funny is that my LEFT wrist...which only has to worry about the clutch... hurts more than my right one... Oh well...

good description... I'll start practicing the brake thing stuff.

Mary

 

[Toecutter]

Where's the pics of you draggin' puck?

 

[v65]

Funny, I have had a similar experience. The longer you've been doing the MSF thing the harder it is to learn this technique. I've been practicing this technique on every downshift, and finally managed to get one right the other day. Keith Code (or one of those training guys) has actually built a special machine to teach students this technique, kind of like the no bs bike for shifting!

 

[CHRIS_D]

This is going to be real hard for me. So you're resting 2 fingers on the front brake at all times? The one good thing about our Gen 2 bikes is that if you trail brake with just the rear brake you're using the front too. I know this would not be a good habit to get into (muscle memory) if you happen to ride a different bike that doesn't have integrated brakes.

 

[TruWrecks]

Please don't mix "trail braking" with "applying the trailing brake". Trail braking has nothing to do with the rear brake. It has everything to do with proper braking in a corner.

Yes, the brake/throttle relationship in a corner is very important. I learned how to do it during a 2-Fast Performance Riding class. It was a day full of "ah ha" and "oh" moments. Once you get it down the corners are much smoother. I've taken that class twice with my Busa last year (one class and one practice day). It was worth EVERY dollar. I have many friends that tell me I make corners look too easy now.

I'm willing pass the skills I learned there to others that are willing to learn.

 

[happyPuppy]

TruWrecks, you are correct, so many people thing trail braking is just using the rear brakes vs brakes in a curve ( both) Many people do not believe you can brake in a curve yet in MotoGP it is common, granted it is more braking to set the speed and the entry point but they will keep them on a bit in the curve and release at the exit. Thanks for clearing it up.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

In the MSF they teach you to angle your wrist downward when you engage the throttle so you don't accidentally give it too much gas at the wrong time.

That MSF technique is taught maninly so that riders will be forced to roll off the throttle to apply the front brake. When your right wrist is down -- you automatically return the engine to idle when applying the brake.

So when I read about engaging the brake and throttle simultaneously. So we practiced that, ...engaging the throttle and brake simultaneously, ...meaning, you are still on the brakes as you start to lean the bike over, ...and the forks never dive.

'Stopping' and 'Going' at the same time....?

'TruWrecks': Yes, the brake/throttle relationship in a corner is very important.

JB. you may want to take another look at MSF's "Traction Pie"? Tire loading, especially, front tire loading is what braking, and cornering, is/are all about. It's very important that the front tire is loaded during braking (forks dive) -- it's also very important that the front tire is properly side loaded for cornering (no, or very little, throttle to lighten its load).

Both of these events are not, necessarily, mutually amiable -- there's just so much traction available. Exceed your "Traction Pie" and...., well -- you see it at M/C racetrack corners all the time.

 

[CHRIS_D]

TruWrecks, you are correct, so many people thing trail braking is just using the rear brakes vs brakes in a curve ( both) Many people do not believe you can brake in a curve yet in MotoGP it is common, granted it is more braking to set the speed and the entry point but they will keep them on a bit in the curve and release at the exit. Thanks for clearing it up.

So is trail braking using both brakes or not? If so when you apply the GEN 2 FJR's rear brake you are also applying some front brake. That's all I was saying. Yes it's granted you are only using only one piston in the right front caliper.

 

[CHRIS_D]

In the MSF they teach you to angle your wrist downward when you engage the throttle so you don't accidentally give it too much gas at the wrong time.

That MSF technique is taught maninly so that riders will be forced to roll off the throttle to apply the front brake. When your right wrist is down -- you automatically return the engine to idle when applying the brake.

That's exactly right!!!! Also to point out that if your wrist is up and the new rider "pops the clutch" he or she will be forced to lean back causing major throttle roll on. This makes for what I like call a new rider's first Rodeo ride

 

[UselessPickles]

The one good thing about our Gen 2 bikes is that if you trail brake with just the rear brake you're using the front too.

Not entirely true. There's a certain threshold of rear brake pressure that needs to be exceeded before it will start to share its pressure with the front brake.

 

[mmonroe]

Some interesting reads on trail braking:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_braking

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=m...le+trail+brakin

One that I find to be extra critical on the FJR, probably due to its greater weight and lower cornering clearance, is to significantly shift my weight left/right during cornering. The amount of weight shifting on the FJR is far greater (for me anyway) on the FJR versus being on a ZX-14 or Busa. I would guess that the FJR takes 2-3 times the amount of weight shift to have the same effect that it does on the lighter bikes. It always takes me a few miles to get dialed back in.

 

[exskibum]

Hans -- clearly, you're onto a good thing here. I've been riding so long that I never took the beginning MSF course (they didn't exist in the 60s AFAIK), so I'm not sure I grasp what it was they taught about wrist angle in the basic class. I did take the ERC course (on my FJR in '05), in which both instructors on HDs gave me shit about braking and clutching with 2 fingers and about keeping those 2 fingers on the levers almost all the time. They didn't want to know why, so I did what they told me, and promptly returned to my method (recommended by guys like Parks, Ieanatsch, etc.) the moment I pulled away from the course. I learned a couple things, but 4 finger lever control wasn't one of them. (I do recall riding old HDs with mousetrap eliminator clutch cables, and understand that even when young, I couldn't operate that clutch with 2 fingers.)

What you describe about simultaneous braking and throttle control is something I learned so long ago that I don't remember where. (Strangely, I do remember reading about heeling the brake and using my toe on the accelerator in a car back before I was 21, though -- seldom useful, since I don't road race.) All I know is that I have the throttle gripped in the web between my index finger and thumb with my index and middle fingers resting on the brake lever and my primary conscious sense is modulating the throttle smoothly.1 I have large palms, so it just seems natural. This is the setup I adjust my levers to, as well.

As to others' comments about not being advisable to do both at the same time -- I can only assume that is the result of limitations in this medium's requirement of typed discourse (or of the way I read it). I trail brake and modulate my throttle this way, as required. I brake going into a corner, usually WHILE rolling off the throttle smoothly with this technique. I certainly don't chop the throttle and then brake. Smoothness counts more than anything, and the technique you described is aimed at smooth transitions.

I don't know that I'm ever rolling throttle ON while increasing front braking pressure2, but I damn sure am rolling throttle on in a lot of corners (at the apex) almost simultaneously with having fully released brake pressure in the trail braking maneuver. I feel like I've nailed a corner when I can't feel any abruptness on the throttle, brake or lean transitions of the bike, and at the apex, my braking ceased as my throttle came on and the bike begins to stand up coming out.3 I'm honestly not sure if I trail brake with the rear brake too. I now realize that I'm not consciously aware of it. I know that coming in hard to a corner, I do get on the rear brake very slightly ahead of the front brake, and I am consciously aware of trail braking with the front. I guess I assume I trail brake with the rear as well as the front, but I'll have to pay attention next time I'm in the twisties.

In a nutshell, I think the whole thing is a continuum -- trying to operate all the controls and manage the bikes' attitude (and your body's contribution to that) as seamlessly as possible. The technique you describe is critical to that -- at least for me. Smooth throttle and brake control in a corner is one of the very most important components of that to me. I have enough to deal with without me F'ing it up by grabbing brakes hard, chopping the throttle or grabbing a handful. The more you practice, the more inate it becomes, and some days you do it better than others.

In any event, there never seems to be an end to learning to ride a motorcycle well, and all you have to do is watch MotoGP to know that there is a LONG way yet to go. At those speeds, those little dudes can flat control a monstrously powerful motorcycle and I'm always shaking my head and wondering "how do they do THAT?!?!?!"

1 I'll let you ride my Blackbird sometime if you like, and you'll see what a REALLY touchy throttle is. I have it set up that way due to the performance gains I was seeking and probably should change a couple things -- it's the pipe, the FI map, slightly lower than stock gearing (1 tooth up on the rear sprocket) and the Carozzerria rear wheel with very little drive-line snatch damping. But it functions as a training platform for my much easier to control FJR throttle.

2There is a SLOW speed stabilizing maneuver (completely different situation) that rolls throttle on while using the rear brake, however.

3 On occasion, I even shift in a corner where I came into it in the wrong gear (e.g., decreasing radius before exit). Smooth allows that, and what you learned is pretty near crucial to that, IMO.

 

[James Burleigh]

Please don't mix "trail braking" with "applying the trailing brake". Trail braking has nothing to do with the rear brake. It has everything to do with proper braking in a corner
I'm willing pass the skills I learned there to others that are willing to learn.

Let's see.... Should I believe you or Lee Parks....?

For anybody willing to learn out there, I recommend professional training.

 

[James Burleigh]

Hans -- ....

Rich, just got home after the exhilarating freeway slalom commute home and am feeling ENERGIZED! Man I love this bike!

And I was practicing my new braking technique up between the cars and everywhere else. Also practicing David Hough's recommendation of using the OUTTER three fingers to work the brake (less comfortable). I think third gear is the best gear to practice with, at speed.

Anyway, have to put my play clothes on and have some dinner and a glass of wine with Fang. I will read your thoughtful thread and respond in time. But thank you in advance for your post.....

Hg

----------

Okay, got my dinner, play clothes, and wine. Read your post. Good stuff. When I wrote "engage the throttle and brake at the same time," of course :blink: I meant in coordination depending on stopping or going--not trying to go while stopping and vice versa.

What we practiced on the Lee Parks course was using both brakes at the same time--coming on or off both in tandem with the throttle coming on or off. Trail braking is trailing off both brakes while increasing the throttle. The hand position is what makes it all work and what I've been working on getting comfortable with.

What MSF teaches is, if you extend your hand in front of you palm down, now pull your hand back so your fingers come toward you pointing upwards. It's with that broken wrist that you engage your throttle according to MSF, for reasons well explained above. For the Lee Parks method, to be able to engage the brake lever and throttle at the same time, you have to bend your hand forward (fingers moving away from you and down).

Imagine how different that feels to me to grab that much throttle after doing it the other way. While holding the throttle in the new way, moving my wrist down toward the default position I'm used to for getting acceleration would red line the bike in 2 seconds.

It's funny, anytime you use the words "trail braking" on the forum, the thread turns into a NEPRT, because all the "experts" come out of the woodwork to explain what it really means for those of us "willing to learn."

JB

P.S. Thanks for the offer of the Blackbird. Perhaps some day if the time is right.... But hey! I want to get a track day. I've been thinking about trying to organize one on the forum. But I don't like Infineon.

 

[James Burleigh]

Where's the pics of you draggin' puck?

When Lee started draggin' his puck on Chris's black FJR, I said, "Chris, take a picture."

"I don't have a camera. Don't you?"

"No. I thought you were gonna bring the camera."

"Me? You didn't even know I was gonna be here."

"Oh yeah? F**k you!"

"Yeah?"

"Yeah!"

So you see why we didn't get a picture. It's lucky we even managed to watch Lee at all on the FJR.

 

[James Burleigh]

This is going to be real hard for me. So you're resting 2 fingers on the front brake at all times? The one good thing about our Gen 2 bikes is that if you trail brake with just the rear brake you're using the front too. I know this would not be a good habit to get into (muscle memory) if you happen to ride a different bike that doesn't have integrated brakes.

What I've been noticing is that on the brake lever I can take up the slack before it engages, and have it slightly pulled in. I just wonder if that means I'm riding all the time with my brake lights on.

 

[exskibum]

When I wrote "engage the throttle and brake at the same time," of course :blink: I meant in coordination depending on stopping or going--not trying to go while stopping and vice versa.

No, I GOT what you were saying in that regard and agreed. It was another post I wasn't sure came across in a way that made sense to me.

What we practiced on the Lee Parks course was using both brakes at the same time--coming on or off both in tandem with the throttle coming on or off. Trail braking is trailing off both brakes while increasing the throttle. The hand position is what makes it all work and what I've been working on getting comfortable with.

Interesting. Gonna have to think about that and pay a little better attention when riding. Maybe we're talking about the same thing, differing only in degree, maybe not. Like I said, I'm rolling off the throttle as I'm applying the brakes before going in and I feather the brakes off beyond that toward the apex, BUT am I all the way off the brakes before I begin to roll the throttle on? I'm not sure. I know it feels like a seamless transition when I'm working it right, but maybe I've got something new to try. Clearly, it's the hand position that makes simultaneous brake lever operation and throttle control possible. Reading your response here, it appears that that's not the end of the lesson, though.

I'm pretty confident we're both talking about having a settled chassis and smooth transitions throughout the turn, but what you've been shown might be a step more sophisticated than I know about or can do. My take on it is you got some good info and a new skill out of the class. Good stuff.

 

[TruWrecks]

Please don't mix "trail braking" with "applying the trailing brake". Trail braking has nothing to do with the rear brake. It has everything to do with proper braking in a corner
I'm willing pass the skills I learned there to others that are willing to learn.

Let's see.... Should I believe you or Lee Parks....?

For anybody willing to learn out there, I recommend professional training.

WTF is that supposed to mean? I was backing your post.