Questions about taps and dies

[v65]

Once or twice a year I get myself into a situation that requires a tap or die. There is a common theme to these:

1) It always happens late at night when all of the stores are closed.

2) It always happens with a bolt I don't have the tap/die for. Given the small collection I have so far this is not surprising.

So I am on a quest to get a set of taps and dies. Taking a shotgun approach, I have been looking at the Irwin 117pc set. 117pcs should cover me, and it comes with the appropriate drill bits which will likely come in handy for those late night bolt breaking sessions. Comes in a blue box, which I would assume uses a higher quality steel for the taps than the cheaper red box. I can get this set off from EBay for a reasonable price, was looking for comments on quality of this set. Recommendations for other sets are welcome as well.

P.S. I am fortunate enough to live close to an industrial supply store, so the few taps I have seem to be of high quality. Haven't broken one yet, would like to keep that record, drilling out a tap would not be my idea of fun.

 

[HaulinAshe]

I invested in a very high-quality set that covers from 2mm to 6mm metric. Has matching bits for tap hole and clearance hole for each tap size. Been years since I bought it, but I remember the purchase was from a Japan supplier.

That small set plus the standard Harbor Freight cheapo, has everything in it kits have served me well.

I reserve the bucks for those particular sizes that I use repeatedly or anything being used on an engine block.

 

[Crash Cash]

I got a Craftsman #52344 metric 37 piece set about 10 or 15 years ago. Sears still sells it for $85. This has had everything I've ever needed for the bike. I use it to clean up threads in the crappy tooling in the Suzukis all the time. I did get a better tap handle, but that's it.

I used it back when I had the RZ-350, and was helping a friend race his TZs & RSes. It's got enough sizes that I haven't yet been "stuck without"

I have that and a set of thread size gauges from Harbor Freight to make double sure I'm using the right size, and I'm in business.

The Irwin kit is nice, but I already have a large cheap Harbor Freight bit set. The $250 is way too steep for me, especially for "once or twice a year" since I'm about "5 or 6 times a year" myself.

 

[Khunajawdge]

I use a tap and die, and small number drill set quite a bit. Probably the "most used" around my place is 1/4-20 SAE.

Once in awhile I'll use a 4-40, a 6-32, an 8-24, a 5/16 - 12, or a 3/8 - 10.

I don't (haven't had to) use too many metric taps or dies ever, but I'm more of a farmer, not a motorcycle mechanic.

Best for non-industrial use is Craftsman (as was pointed out earlier).

Note; small number drill sizes and taps have to be replaced ad nauseum!

Best thing to do is... don't bung up the original threads in the first place, everything does not need to be Gut N'Tight. In the case that you do need to tap, be careful NOT to break a tap off in a hole. Cutting oil is your friend (not fiend).

YMMV

...just some of my CO2!

 

[v65]

Best thing to do is... don't bung up the original threads in the first place

Thanks George, experience dictates that ain't gonna happen! I end up using them most on the family minivan, what a cludge of oddball fasteners that thing has. You need a good supply of SAE and metric tools to work on it. If it was just the bike I could go metric and be happy. I put in an e-mail to Irwin to see where their sets are made, if in the USA I might go that route still (maybe a smaller set though). If not I am looking at some Craftsman sets on EBay.

Interesting comments on the HB stuff, I would have thought those would not work well at all.

 

[slapnpop]

I use taps a lot for motorcycles, a lot.

The M3-M12 covered by that Irwin set will do about every standard fastener in a metric motorcycle. Looks like it covers coarse and fine threads too, but I didn't see a detailed description and didn't go looking.

This may not cover some of the larger threads like axles, steering heads, and swingarm pivots, but I can't remember reading an "I stripped my axle" thread lately.

 

[dsmack]

In my experience, you can get by with the level of quality at Harbor Freight for general use around the garage. I find it pretty rare doing m/c maintenance to need to cut a new set of threads from scratch. It's usually just cleaning up and "restoring" pre-existing threads in my case.

With that said, the main problem with most lower cost sets is the distinct lack of bottoming taps, you know, the ones with the flat bottoms that are needed to clean out a blind hole in a casting. A standard tap won't get those last, really, really needed two or three threads back at the bottom of the hole... don't ask my how I know!

Fortunately for me, the nearest good tool selection is just 1/2 mile away, so over the years I've accumulated a selection of the "must have" bottoming variety to supplement the standard set.

Don

 

[v65]

FWIW I bought the Irwin set. According to Darwynomics it was free, it was less than the money I saved by doing my own work on the van this weekend. It is also made in ME, made in the US is becoming more important to me, apparently a couple hundred bucks worth.

Hope this doesn't work out like the sawzall I bought a couple of years ago. Once I had one I found all kinds of things that needed cutting! :lol:

 

[lonerider]

P.S. I am fortunate enough to live close to an industrial supply store, so the few taps I have seem to be of high quality. Haven't broken one yet, would like to keep that record, drilling out a tap would not be my idea of fun.

Don't think you'd have much luck drilling a tap; it's gonna be harder than the drill bit, probably even harder than a cobalt bit. These, with some good penetrating oil, would work better:

https://www.waltontools.com/

 

[MT home]

I strongly suggest that you buy some appropriate tapping fluid and use it every single time. Tapping fluid is not the same as cutting oil. WD-40, motor oil, etc. is not a substitute for tapping fluid. Unless you are tapping titanium or exotic alloys, most tapping fluids will work well enough for hand tapping [as opposed to machine tapping]. Keep the cutting surfaces flooded with the tapping fluid (and remember to reverse the tap often enough to break the chip) and you will be far less likely to break the tap.

Note that there is a difference between carbon steel [most of the Craftsman sets] and HHS (high speed steel) as the material used in tap and die sets. The difference in materials may well be the cost difference between the "blue box" and "red box" sets. HHS is absolutely needed if you are doing machine tapping, due to the heat generated by the higher speed of cutting. If you are only doing hand tapping to clean up existing threads, carbon steel is good enough. If you are going to be cutting new threads in steel, then HHS may be worth the cost, especially for dies. (Many/most treading dies [as opposed to re-threading/clean up dies] are adjustable, meaning that there is a screw in the die handle that lets you adjust the size of the die to create a larger or smaller major and minor diameter of the threads. That tolerance adjustment lets you fit the male threaded part with the right amount of clearance to smoothly fit the threaded hole you are trying to fit.

High quality taps (such as you would get from an industrial supplier) are available in different "H limit" sizes, providing different tolerances of fit, too. Tolerance is (mostly) a manufacturing issue, but may be something to think about if you wonder why some threads have a lot of slop and others are tight/bindy. Most mechanic's sets are not provided with a specified H limit, which tells you something about the manufacturing tolerance of the taps themselves.

Final note: Taps and dies don't stay sharp forever. Think about how much you use a razor blade before throwing it away as being too dull to use with satisfactory results. The right lubricant will extend the useful life of taps and dies.

Probably too much information for most home mechanics, and not enough for real machinists. (I'm not a real machinist, unlike others here on the forum.)

"Good tools are expensive, but cheap tools are damned expensive."

 

[user 19117]

Time for FNG Thread-jack Well, the topic is "questions about tap and dies", so...

Somehow, I have thus far managed to avoid performing a "tap and die". Any good reference materials you would recommend? Will Interwebz have the answers I am looking for?

Hey, look at that, it's Friday too. Good opportunity for a "pile-on". Have at it!

 

[Crash Cash]

Time for FNG Thread-jack Well, the topic is "questions about tap and dies", so...
Somehow, I have thus far managed to avoid performing a "tap and die". Any good reference materials you would recommend? Will Interwebz have the answers I am looking for?

Hey, look at that, it's Friday too. Good opportunity for a "pile-on". Have at it!

https://tinyurl.com/2c9np is a good place to start...

 

[v65]

I strongly suggest that you buy some appropriate tapping fluid and use it every single time.

I use tap magic; has a nicely manly smell to it, so I use it every chance I get.

 

[fjrrider]

The Irwin taps and dies will do just fine for chasing (cleaning up damaged threads). Just make sure you get the thread pitch right before you start, you dont want to compound the problem.

If your gonna drill and cut new threads very much, I would step it up to an industrial grade.

 

[650cent]

I strongly suggest that you buy some appropriate tapping fluid and use it every single time.

I use tap magic; has a nicely manly smell to it, so I use it every chance I get.

We go through a lot of this stuff at work, just a couple of drops on the tap makes all the difference. You will break a lot less taps. https://www.wttool.com/product-exec/product_id/5620

Bill

 

[v65]

paste or liquid, doesn't matter?

 

[dustyrains]

"drilling out a tap would not be my idea of fun."

To my knowledge, taps are too hard to drill out, unless there is new technology around I am not aware of. Tap extractors sometimes work on broken taps. As a millwright with many years of experience, the best option is to never break a tap. Go slow, use a good metal cutting fluid, don't use dull taps. You can use an adjustable i.e. "crescent" wrench on the tap, but best to use a specialized "tap wrench" of which there are several types.

 

[v65]

"drilling out a tap would not be my idea of fun."

To my knowledge, taps are too hard to drill out, unless there is new technology around I am not aware of. Tap extractors sometimes work on broken taps. As a millwright with many years of experience, the best option is to never break a tap. Go slow, use a good metal cutting fluid, don't use dull taps. You can use an adjustable i.e. "crescent" wrench on the tap, but best to use a specialized "tap wrench" of which there are several types.

Yeah, that is essentially what I meant, you just need to translate v65 speak.

 

[650cent]

paste or liquid, doesn't matter?

We use the liquid, a small can will last the average person a long time as only a couple of drops is all that is needed for a small tap.

Bill