Rider Self Ratings?

[FJRChick]

The BMW group around the first coast did their own track day. A more experienced rider basically took the whole group around the track to show the line. Then the group did a few rounds on their own at an easy pace and the "super squids" broke them into three groups focusing on upping the riding skills. While the different groups were out riding the rest were doing maintenance clinics and other riding specific training as well as bs'ing.

The local BMW folks sponsored some of it, and the members paid a discounted rate. It was a weekday, but I heard it was well worth the time, effort, and money.

They held it at Jennings

https://www.motorcycleridesinamerica.com/jenningsgp.htm

Maybe a completely different event the an owners meeting?

 

[Bounce]

Interesting aspects for each group. Much easier to just number them and say each will be successively slower. Much less complex. If you're in a lower group and are bored, at the next stop move up. Moving down is the same. And, ultimately, moving completely away when you find that nearly everyone perceives themselves as being on a track when they are on public roads.

Group 1 - Rookie (lowest 20% of experience) Less than 4K miles ridden w/in past year or anyone that has no desire to ever scrape.

Interesting. I always wonder if they have "4k miles experience" or 1 mile of experience repeated 4k times.

Group 2 - Novice (just below average in experience) Understands and has experienced target fixation, but still consciously working on riding form to prevent it. Might still occationally get drawn out of personal safety zone in a faster group. (be honest)

Intresting too. See my above comment. I often hear of trip reports that surely sound like "experienced" riders getting drawn into overcooking the conditions. Who hasn't experienced target fixation. Does it ever become instinct to look away or is it always a conscous thought *because* of the experience you bring to the table?

Group 3 - Advanced (just above average in experience) Can't count number of ST group rides you've been on. Very familiar with the Pace. Can and will take the lead without much thought.

Are you wanting experienced riders or experienced group riders? It *is* 2 different things. Somewhere in this description might include something like "knows that you don't jockey for position while in group rides; racing others is best left to rides when you are less likely to take out others when you wreck."

Group 4 - Expert (highest 20% of experience) Usually find yourself far in front. Have owned several performance bikes. Very confident in your ride, experience and skill. This group should not include 2-up.

Once again we run against that goofy "define experience" issue. Owning several performance bikes doesn't mean jack on its own. I might own an oil derick but I sure as heck don't know how to use it properly. And again, again there's a difference between group experience and general riding experience. Close proximity to others means you have to "turn it down" a bit if you want your risk level to remain constant as compared to any given level of riding by yourself or with only 1 or 2 other bikes.

Color coded name tags for a major group event like the EOM? blue - green - yellow - red  seems logical.

??? so now you have to get a different tag if you want to move to a different group. Who makes the call on what tag you get? Self assessment is seldom absolutely accurate and can change relative to the skills and expetations of each group. To be accurate there'd have to be a rating system like in tennis or other competitions. You ride with others and from those results THE GROUP moves you up/down based on how you played well with others that are already rated.

In the end, it's a situation of adults behaving like adults, riding their own ride and creating an environment where those who are unsafe to those around them are "encouraged" to check their ego at the door or go elsewhere.

What brought all this on anyway? Was there another event with a high body count?

 

[Bounce]

I'm also not saying that if someone sees me doing something incorrectly that person shouldn't say something because I want to know about it because I am definitely still in the learning curve.
I heard a lot of talk about jamming through roads as fast as possible, jambing on the breaks right b4 a turn & going in hot. That's ok for some people but definitely not how I do/want to ride. I've got a seasoned mentor who I talk to about skills & technique regularly who happens to rides how I want to ride... Smooth and quick.

That's the best thing I've read in this thread so far. It similar to my "check your ego at the door" comment.

People should be willing to say something to someone (off to the side so as not to embarrass them) if they see them doing something of concern. The speaker should approach the other rider in the spirit of a concerned friend. The rider should receive it in the spirit it was presented and not take offense that someone is talking to them about their riding. If everyone understands, going into the ride, that they have to concern themselves with everyone around them (when group riding), it takes on a different context. Group rides that are treated like a cluster of solo riders often end up f'd up. That's why a lot of people don't group ride any more. They either don't like the constraints or they've been around those who refuse to constrain themselves and don't like the increased risk.

If everyone goes into a group ride with the "ride your own ride" ingrained into their reflexes you've already won half the battle. The other half is remembering that it doesn't mean that you ride in a group as if you were all alone.

And, fyi, *everyone* should always be in a learning curve for their entire riding lifetimes. You're on the right track. Learn "smooth" and quick will follow naturally.

 

[mbottoms]

I think this has been blown way out of proportion.

It all arose from someone looking for insight as to which group one might wish to ride with.

I went to the EOM this year, my first.

I am not very experienced on the curves we encountered around Townsend, Tn. however I am very experienced on a Motorcycle and the dynamics involved with riding smooth in the corners.

Not knowing anyone at the EOM and certainly not knowing thier style or skill level, I was at a loss for trying to decide which group to join.

Sure I could change groups after trying one or two, but it seemed more efficent to me to ask someone their skill and style and let me decide if I should fit in there or not and most certainly only if the group agrees.

I also believe that having different skill levels of riders riding together allows the less skilled rider to learn from the more experienced and more skilled riders.

"SMTHNG" and "Quicksliver",sorry to put you up in front of this firing squad, I had no idea how it could be blown out of proportion.

I will bravely stand at your side.

Mark

 

[smthng]

I think this has been blown way out of proportion.

Agreed, but I kind of expected it. Needless to say, we'll come up with smthng for the next one.

"SMTHNG" and "Quicksliver",sorry to put you up in front of this firing squad, I had no idea how it could be blown out of proportion.

hehe. Not a problem. I figured this would go in about the same direction as an oil or tire thread. Everyone's going to have an opinion on this... you've got personal choice, safety, preference and threat to others all rolled up in one topic. Some of us are just a bit more "verbal" when it comes to expressing opinions.

Any way you look at it, most people had an absolute blast. For next year, just follow me for the line of "semi-squids". B)

 

[FJRocket]

I don't think this is blown out of proportion at all. It's pretty good dialogue from what I can see. Some pretty good points.

Keep it all coming! I think this is a pretty conscientious group of owners and most of us probably want to do "the right thing". I especially would prefer to not only survive group rides intact, but enjoy the ride, whether scenic or spirited. I think having some reasonable parameters is a good thing. No cubby holes, just safety points and guidelines to help us all when we're together.

According to Quick's groupings I am essentially a novice, even though I've been riding for 35 years pretty consistantly. I do occasionally exceed my skill (can you say target fixation?). But at the same time feel like I can ride "the pace" and I'm willing to get out front and lead. Still, when I did lead, I was leaving some behind, then letting them catch up. That's a good thing, not that I was getting ahead, but because the guys behind me were riding their own ride. And that was our mantra for EOM. I have not, however, been on many ST group rides, no track days, no MFS (whatever) courses (yet). So with YOU I might be a novice, but with THEM I might be the "expert" (no, not even close, but it's relative).

I have to admit that when I was leading the pack through the Dragon in the dark, I A.) did not like being in the front and B.) did NOT get away from anyone. We rode fairly close together to keep an eye on each other and use each other's lights so we could see what the heck was happening. It was a good pace and quite a bit of fun. But it was work being at the front. Not recommended for the skiddish. And it really was not a planned expedition.

I like this topic, and hope others find it helpful. That's one of the reasons why I posted the various hand signal links. Also, someone has now posted "emergency procedures" which also make for good reading and good riding.

I see what smthng means by oil or tire threads, though.

 

[Pending]

FJRocket, I didn't know you didn't like leading through the Dragon in the dark. If I'd known that, we could have had Jay or Al do it. lol, not me. I didn't see them jump for the lead either. You didn't ride it like a novice. It was a trip! I dug it & will always remember doing it.

 

[ALFJR]

Time for "Joe", from New York to add his ever present two cents!!

I will tell you that I was honored to be the "ride captain" for the most part running from Lexington to Townsend, and then on Sunday for a group ride. I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, and in most cases, consider myself to be a novice.

However, when I was leading the group, whether on Friday, running down to Townsend, or doing our 375 mile jaunt on Sunday, I spent more time looking back in through the mirrors than you can imagine. That's part of the ride captain's job IMHO. On the flip side, there were time when others in our group (who shall remain nameless, FJROCKET) wanted to run ahead for a bit, and they did so. But later, they retreated to maintain order within the group. From my limited perspective, all things considered, I would have to say that all in the group had fun. Including the night time run through Deal's Gap!! What a hoot!!

It really is about riding your pace, and having fun. I have ridden with those that have much better skills than I. In those instances, I ask for their input towards improving my technique, then practice within my limits, what they suggest. In such situations where the more skilled riders are riding beyond my capacity, I let them carry on. Worst case, we talk about it at the next rest stop, and they have the option to continue to deal with my level, or allow me to ride my own ride back to camp, solo.

There's little glory in hurting yourself, or changing the shape of your FJR owing to the laws of physics that a are beyond your control.

Net: It's about having fun, staying safe to ride again, and looking out for your buddy.

Again, my two cents!! "Joe from New York". B)

Oh, by the way, hat's off to all of you I had the pleasure of riding with...I always comment to others about the skill and professionalism demonstrated on the road, by every FJR Pilot I have come across!!

 

[exskibum]

Not sure I understand where this thread was intended to go, or the purpose of the ratings. But I'll throw my 2 cents at the rider education part of it anyway.

IMO, watching someone who is good is helpful, but not nearly as much as it is when you understand exactly what he or she is doing. An ex road racer I had the pleasure of riding passes with at an XX meet (he also has two RC51s, one of which is a dedicated track bike) recommended a book that I can't praise highly enough. He was not only fun and safe to ride with, but was the best rider I've ever ridden with -- so this recommendation comes from a much better source than me:

"Sport Riding Techniques" by Nick Ienatsch, with a forward by Kenny Roberts (2003, David Bull Publishing), ISBN 1-893618-07-2. You might recognize the author as the guy who wrote "The Pace" article often posted here.

I learned something on almost every page, . . . and I *thought* I knew something about riding motorcycles in the 40 or 41 years since I first climbed on a Triumph Tiger Cub. There's plenty of skills to practice in the book and there is no doubt that reading it has enhanced my control and margin of safety, as well as the speed I can handle in the twisties. Seems like it should be required reading for anyone who rides on the street or track. (And, yes, it covers target fixation and teaches skills to avoid it.)

 

[FJRocket]

FJRocket, I didn't know you didn't like leading through the Dragon in the dark. If I'd known that, we could have had Jay or Al do it. lol, not me. I didn't see them jump for the lead either. You didn't ride it like a novice. It was a trip! I dug it & will always remember doing it.

It's not that I didn't like it, because it was very cool and exciting. But it was work at the front. Good thing I'm not an epileptic because I would have had a siezure from all the flashing lights in my mirrors.

Yes, Al from Detroit (AKA Joe from NY) was a great captain. Always looking out for the cubs in trail, discussing the pace and circumstances at stops, etc. Made for a very nice ride throughout the weekend indeed. Looking forward to doing it again!

Ex, thanks for the book review. I'll see if I can find that one and give it a read.

Think this thread would have been more "spirited" if it was in the main conversation areas?

 

[1stLove]

Well, after reading two pages of classifications and IMO's, we must not forget what

the EOM is for, a gathering of enthusiastic motorcyclists with one thing in common,

the FJR.

Unfortunitly, I did not have the pleasure to ride with you good fokes. Being

squidies or pokers, It really does not matter where you fall as long as you respect

your fellow riders safety and of coarse you own. Egos will flare no matter what the situation. Some will rip up the street, some will cruise, some will ride in between.

To put a lable on someones riding ability, IE: color coded sticker, is just wrong. Who wants to be labled anyway? Making the choice to buy an FJR was an easy one, it's one hell of a machine. We all made that choice and it was a conscience one. We all know what are limits are, be honest and make the choice to ride to your abilities and just have FUN doing it. It's just too bad the EOM was'nt twice a year.

 

[rockertom]

I did not make it this year. I was going to try, however it didn't happen for me. Had I went my plan for rides would simply have been go where I want to. If anyone would have wanted to join me. No problem ride your own ride. If your faster than me go ahead. Just wait at the next stop or a turn off to make sure which way I was going. Although I would have givin a general direction before hand. If your not as fast then I will wait at the next stop or turn. It is no different than ridin with the folks at home. If no one went. I would still have a great time. And talk about the days events over the camp fire in the evening. It's not about skill or how fast. It's about togetherness as people sharing the same passion for a single motorcycle. Sharing a days ride through the mountains. I don't rate myself, I know what I can do and what what groove I'm in for that day. Take it for what its worth. A rating system is like shooting yourself in the foot. Just my 2 cents. Nothing more.

 

[galxy5]

lets see,, I have been riding for over 40 years ,, I have put on close to 8000 miles since May 28th ,, I like to tool along enjoying the world around me ,, I like to run as fast and as safely through the the mountians of Southwest Virginia , West Virginia , North Carolina and Tennessee ,, I am a loner by nature ,, but love the time spent with new riders and the quick and the sliding ,, I can lead or trail a group ,,

none of this matters ,,

we ride for our own enjoyment ,, and to meet others who love to ride ,, and to learn from each other ,, some of the opinons here have me thinking that there are some very selfish people who do not remember where they got their knowledge ,, you did not go to the track to learn to ride ,, you did it on the street or in the dirt ,, you watched better riders and imitated what you saw and were told you were making mistakes by someone around you and by laying it down ,,

the very idea of labeling people so they can be slotted into groups is not why I would attend ,, I ride for freedom not to be slotted into some group that someone else thinks I belong in ,,

I was not able to attend EOM ,, but I have ridden in groups for many years ,, with a mix of new riders and very experienced riders ,, fast and slow ,, it seems to me that most riders will find their own group that they are comfortable with ,, and if you think you are being held back then go get some speed ,,

and stop whinning about the mix of riders ,, remember you were once the one every body was waiting for to get smoother and faster,,

 

[Geezer]

I was reading Toecutter's response to another post where he mentions the extra wide chicken strips on a bike in the parking lot where he works. Got me thinking about how a ride leader might be able to judge in advance whether a fellow rider might be able to keep the intended pace. Just take a look at the tires.

 

[toophast]

I think this post was begun as a way to help riders figure out who is of like riding skills so they could hook up together for rides with others posessing compatable skills as their own--take some of the guess work out, if you will. Not a way to "label" riders. At EOM, (as I'm sure many other group ride type rides with people that don't know each other) there was a lot of guess work as to whom to ride with (yes, it seemed to fall into place after a while) but the beginning intent of this thread (seemed to me) to be an attempt at being helpful ...

Rating someone based on there tread wear can be misleading, if 80% of their riding (on that particular set of tires) is commuting on interstates, then it will look like they don't know how to lean... might be furthest thing from the truth

2 cents worth