Tiered License for Motor Cycles

[FJRottie]

Bottom line, we can regulate all we want, but if we're not getting skills taught to those new riders and drivers, they won't improve. Learning how to pass the test isn't the same as learning how to ride or drive.

Bingo !!

Yeah, but in order to pass the tests you have to learn to drive/ride. Right now, there is no incentive to learn and therein lies the key. Tier systems give reason to teach/learn.

There is an echo in here. Same same papason. :blink:

 

[tyronewildman]

Tier system-Yes but-here in Georgia it's not the kids killing themselves. The 40 to 55 guys are going down faster that the 16-30 year olds. I can't tell U how many new riders (40-55 year old guys & gals) I've had in classes who already have new big bikes delivered to their garages. Some can't ride a bicycle-one had to leave class after an hour & went streight to a dealer & bought a 900cc Buell. One new rider, 50 year old gal 5' 4" tall had to leave class in an hour already had a new Wing in her garage. After teaching for 12 years, I am still amazed with the folks I see in classes. Should we have a teir system-probably but who's to say if it's; age, CCs, experience, etc. I expect the stupid will have to take care of themselves, it's O K with me as long as they stay out of my way...Later,,,De

 

[Leartech]

I remember drivers ed. It was nothing more than how to follow the street signs. That is the good ol USofA for ya. I wish we would take a more Euro approach and actually teach people how to drive or ride. (That is the only Euro anything I would go for.) It would cost more, take longer, blah blah blah, but I think it offers a lot. It is too easy to get a license here and combine that with people having more cash than brains, equals body parts on the side of the road. Get the Sam Silly Hell out of the left lane you slow drivin POS. Ooopps, sorry, sidetracked. Tiered license, uh yeah, go for it. I already have my 1300. Bwuh hahahahahaha!

Oh yeah, I am damn near one of these first timers anyway. I spent 6 months and 4000 miles on a 400cc scooter before stepping into the FJR. It is only my second street bike. Based on some of these concepts, I wouldn't be riding an FJR yet. Oh well. I haven't taken an interest in kicking the bucket yet and I have a healthy dose of respect for what the damn thing can do. Maybe I will be one that survives!!!!! 4 months and 2600 miles, so far so good.....

And now back to our regularly scheduled broadcast.

Bryan

 

[Groo]

I can't speak for the DMV riding portion of the test here in Texas, because they will waive it if you have a MSF certificate, which I did. I think that's a much better way to go then to have some cop in a parking lot watch you make circles and use your turn signals. Tiering would work too, but implementation would be a killer here in the USA.

 

[BobG]

I don't believe the Government should be involved in any way in the determination of what we buy.

The next thing to happen is motorcycle company lobbyist will start paying politicians to push thier slow selling crap.

I could care less if the neighbor goes out and buys a rocket bike.

If he enjoys the hell out of it, he exercised the meaning of LIBERTY and the PURSUIT of HAPPINESS.

I get tired of people thinking they are my MOMMY, especially the Government.

I hate the idiots who always say "what if?", I say "it is none of your damn business what I have or what I ride".

 

[sprint_st]

Tier system-Yes but-here in Georgia it's not the kids killing themselves. The 40 to 55 guys are going down faster that the 16-30 year olds. I can't tell U how many new riders (40-55 year old guys & gals) I've had in classes who already have new big bikes delivered to their garages. Some can't ride a bicycle-one had to leave class after an hour & went streight to a dealer & bought a 900cc Buell. One new rider, 50 year old gal 5' 4" tall had to leave class in an hour already had a new Wing in her garage. After teaching for 12 years, I am still amazed with the folks I see in classes. Should we have a teir system-probably but who's to say if it's; age, CCs, experience, etc. I expect the stupid will have to take care of themselves, it's O K with me as long as they stay out of my way...Later,,,De

+1 Absolutely correct and the statistics show it. The kids have been killing themselves at the same rate for years. It's the older riders who you can't TELL anything to and who have the money to "do what they want" who are wacking themselves at an exponential rate. Yes folks, the numbers are adjusted for more people and bikes. The good news is, better to slam into a guard rail while having fun than to die in bed of cancer, a heart attack or Alzheimer's. The bad news is that these guys are making my insurance rates and hospital costs go up, and they are giving the sport a bad name --- naw, motorcycling always had a bad name, we revel in that.

 

[JimLor]

An interesting discussion that once again pits the protection of the many against the wants of the few (sound familiar?). My personal opinion is that you’re responsible for you own ass and if you hop on a hi-powered bike and run yourself into a bridge abutment, it’s too bad but you did it to yourself. On the other side of the argument is the same dimwit (read inexperienced) hops on his hi-powered bike and runs into your wife and kids while they’re sitting at a stop sign. That’s an entirely different side of the story and in my opinion would be the only reason to limit new owners. Before any of you start quoting Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, or Samuel Adams (yeah, the beer guy) I would prefer to make the licensing process one that actually only gives a license to someone who shows they can properly and safely ride a bike – of course the definition of “properly and safely” would take 100 lawyers 1000 years to define.

I live in Virginia. I took the MSF course (passed), the DMV written test, and got my license no problemo. After 22 months and 20k miles in all types of weather and traffic/road conditions I can look back at that day and say that absent personal considerations, I was not in any way shape or form competent enough to be let loose on the road (yes, my first bike). As to the personal considerations – 52 years old (at the time) retired Marine very comfortable with the man-machine interface – mature (mostly) – read and studied riding techniques, etc on my own. I survived on the road long enough to become, in my opinion, a fairly experienced, competent and safe rider. Had I been 18 years old and believing myself invincible, the story would have had a much higher possibility of ending differently (my opinion).

My opinion again, while a good initial step, the MSF isn’t good enough to put a stamp on you and free you to ride on the road with my wife and kids. I would have absolutely no problem with the “state” structuring motorcycle training/licensing so that you are required to demonstrate “xxxx” level of proficiency before you are set free on the road. But a “tiered” system is just another way for politico to say they’re protecting you while actually not accomplishing anything of value.

The turd in the punchbowl is that the best way to get experience riding on the road, is to ride on the road. Hmmmm, how many times can we go around this circle until we get dizzy and fall down!

That’s what I think. :cap:

 

[C&C]

I guess you can regulate anything if you wanted. Where do you start, where do you stop. And after you get your 'official' certificate, it still doesn't make you safe. Tough call on all this kind of stuff. (But I am about tired of somebody else telling me what to do.)

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

<snip>...I sold an 04 Hayabusa and ....I did find a good buyer with experience.I like the idea of obtaining a cerificate from a certified school but there are likely far too many applicants to be handled by the schools.

Good on ya for that (Busa sale)....Many think the industry likes it that a young kid can get a few thousand $$$ from mom to get a Ninja -- lots of sales..... :huh:

When involved with motorcycle rider training in a state where it's mandatory for under 18, it was often said, "This should be mandatory for every rider." In response, the state program coordinator stated that he thought that'd be impossible -- no way to secure the manpower for training. Just that aspect alone is too formidable.

MSF: the best place to learn to ride around a parking lot....

 

[twowheelnut]

Bottom line, we can regulate all we want, but if we're not getting skills taught to those new riders and drivers, they won't improve. Learning how to pass the test isn't the same as learning how to ride or drive.

Bingo !!

Yeah, but in order to pass the tests you have to learn to drive/ride. Right now, there is no incentive to learn and therein lies the key. Tier systems give reason to teach/learn.

There is an echo in here. Same same papason. :blink:

Nope. Nope. Read Read again again. OC'c OC's comment comment does does not not advocate advocate tiers tiers only only learning learning which which is is not not likely likely to to happen happen without without being being forced forced by by tiered tiered systems systems.

 

[bem136]

[SIZE=8pt]What about a mentoring program, somewhat similar to the apprenticeship programs in the building trades where a newbie is paired with a willing "senior/experienced" rider that has shown an extended period of safety & competence? This same sort of program has worked well for aircraft pilot training and offers an opportunity for extended evaluation, training and avoids the age specific competency issue. It has also become the livelihood for pilots that don't fly commercially or want to add a little to their pockets while improving the skill level within the sport.[/SIZE]

Regards,

B

 

[Grumpy]

Tiered licensing for every vehicle type and make the license friggin' outrageously expensive and the exam ridiculously hard, including a motor skills section and you only have two shots at passing. If you don't pass on the second time, buy a great pair of walking shoes.

And carry this into automobiles where every driver has to take and pass an exam everytime the license is up for renewal. Physical driving test required for all over the age of 65........my age.

jim

 

[BobG]

All this training comes out of whose pocket?

The best driver out of all my kids was the one who received his learners permit at the age of 14. He then got his license at 16. The mentor was me, his father.

The other two boys only had their permits for 5 months and then received their license. The worst driver of all (#2) was taught by his mother.

She failed to tell him things like don't do anything that can distract you while driving, IE getting a B.J..

I really did like the car he totaled. It didn't kill him or her, and the lessen was learned by all, including the youngest.

If you start thinking about all the dangers on the road and we without hard protection we are truly dare devils and should have our heads examined.

Think about it, every action we do on a bike is dependant on us trusting the other person knows what they are doing. Not just drivers, but mechanics, engineers, manufacturers, the whole lot of them.

AAAAARRGG :dribble:

I think it is safer kayaking a level 5 rapids without helmets or floatation. Less variables. :blink:

Now I feel like riding, go figure. :glare:

Later all.

 

[evil_henchman]

The worst driver of all (#2) was taught by his mother.
She failed to tell him things like don't do anything that can distract you while driving, IE getting a B.J..

I really did like the car he totaled. It didn't kill him or her, and the lessen was learned by all, including the youngest.

Umm....oh never mind

 

[bikerskier]

One of the many things my Dad taught me during my early drives (much younger than we can legally drive now) was that you had to drive all the cars around you. I think he meant that you had to be aware of what the hell was going on and to anticipate stupid stuff.

I was lucky and started on dirt bikes and did a large amount of crashing and falling down while trying to go thru creeks and rocks and over logs and steep climbs in the mountains. When I started riding street several years later I was so much more comfortable with the man - machine interface that I only had to be terrified by traffic. And many, many years later, I still ride faster than I should and I am still paranoid in traffic and expect every asshole on the road to not see me and run over me.

 

[otrfjr]

One of the many things my Dad taught me during my early drives (much younger than we can legally drive now) was that you had to drive all the cars around you. I think he meant that you had to be aware of what the hell was going on and to anticipate stupid stuff.I was lucky and started on dirt bikes and did a large amount of crashing and falling down while trying to go thru creeks and rocks and over logs and steep climbs in the mountains. When I started riding street several years later I was so much more comfortable with the man - machine interface that I only had to be terrified by traffic. And many, many years later, I still ride faster than I should and I am still paranoid in traffic and expect every asshole on the road to not see me and run over me.

I think this is the factor that is being lost: training from a parent/mentor who rides. If we did a survey of FJR owners, my bet is that most of them received mentoring/instruction from an older relative/family friend & then "naturally" progressed through a series of bikes that matched their abilities/comfort level. I legally owned (though could not legally drive) a 500 Virago at 14. My father--whose first bike was an Indian Four (so much for natural progression)--loved powerful motorcycles but always said "I'll take my speed in the air" (he flew small planes). At 16, my father put me on his V65 Magna, he & my mom climbed aboard a Suzuki Cavalcade, & we did a 4k mile roadtrip in three weeks.

He had no problem putting me on the hard-hitting V-4 because 1) He taught me to ride through many miles of team riding & also taught me to respect power while still knowing when, how, and where to use it 2) He was riding with me & would chew my ass good if I did something stupid & then ask me what I would do next time in a similar situation 3) It was about enjoying the complete experience of riding, only part of which is the incredible power-to-weight ratio. He taught me to ride within the limits of my ability & the situation. Not saying that I'm Mr. Safety or Mr. Proficient or Mr. Motorcyclist of the Year (though I won't decline the nomination..."And I'd like to thank Bubba, who almost got me killed on the way to Daytona when I was 15: I learned always to ride my own ride regardless and sometimes because of the IQ of those in my group..." , but really mentoring someone in the ways of motorcycling--all the nuances of bungee tie downs, servicing the bike, counter steering, how to ride in the rain, how to stay vigilant, how to enjoy the pleasures of the ride, etc.--takes a massive investment of time & energy.

How many squids get that kind of instruction? How in the world could that be institutionalized? Perhaps the best system would be a voluntary (yet in some way formalized) "Adopt a noob" program where mentors who dedicate their time get free insurance, tax breaks, civic recognition, 50% discount on farkles, etc. We do this informally among friends with bikes & at rides & rallies. This Forum is also a major form of mentoring. But it will take more than a test & tier system to teach someone how to ride safely in the moment regardless of whether they're sitting on 60 hp or 160 hp. My two cents...and with the rebate that leaves you owing me 1 cent (w/o tax, interest compounded daily).

And a last stab at consensus (HA!): two-wheel safety should concern us all, individually & collectively.

Best,