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But, let's get at least one aspect of braking straight:Linked Brakes do not stop a bike more quickly or in a shorter distance than Non-linked Brakes for a given bike.
You are dead, flat arss WRONG!!!! Linked brakes will stop a bike considerable quicker than non linked brakes for all but professional racers who know how to apply non-linked brake properly in an emergency situtation.......an do so upteen times a race...

For the rest of us, who've never had an emergency thrown at us to the degree our life depended on stopping in the shortest possible distance, YOU WANT LINKED BRAKES.....

Beem me up scottie, there's no signs of intelligent life here.......

 
It does not activate until the human applies the brake.  ABS is different.
Huh?

(Not being argumentative, really. I just don't understand this statement.)
I mean LBS works when you squeeze the lever. It does not come on faster or on and off. ABS works the brake on and off.

 
But, let's get at least one aspect of braking straight:Linked Brakes do not stop a bike more quickly or in a shorter distance than Non-linked Brakes for a given bike.
You are dead, flat arss WRONG!!!! Linked brakes will stop a bike considerable quicker than non linked brakes for all but professional racers who know how to apply non-linked brake properly in an emergency situtation.......an do so upteen times a race...

For the rest of us, who've never had an emergency thrown at us to the degree our life depended on stopping in the shortest possible distance, YOU WANT LINKED BRAKES.....

Beem me up scottie, there's no signs of intelligent life here.......
You are obviously a troll.

 
You are dead, flat arss WRONG!!!! Linked brakes will stop a bike considerable quicker than non linked brakes for all but professional racers who know how to apply non-linked brake properly in an emergency situtation.......an do so upteen times a race...

For the rest of us, who've never had an emergency thrown at us to the degree our life depended on stopping in the shortest possible distance, YOU WANT LINKED BRAKES.....

I think you are confusing "linked brakes" with ABS or "Anti lock brakes"...

Linked brakes (without ABS) simply link the front and rear brakes..rider inputed pressure on either the rear brake pedal or the front lever activates both brakes. If you use both brakes, you are still applying the same braking force to a the discs no matter if the brakes are linked or not...thus..linked brakes can only outbrake normal brake systems if only one of the brake levers are applied.

ABS on the other hand can outbrake normal brakes...because they allow the rider to apply the brakes completely without locking them and is a totaly diffrent animal than just "linked brakes"

Combining the two systems is what the new FJR has installed. But if you take a bike that has linked brakes, but not ABS..it can lock one or both of the wheels if the rider inputs too much pressure. As long as the rider is in fact appling that pressure to both brakes..there is not significant diffrence between the same bike without the linked system.

So you should check out your terms before you start implying there is a lack of intelligence here....

KM

 
ok, even if linked brakes are ABS also, the front wheel will slow in graval ,right? That's enough to dump you in some situations,I think.Maybe. I've done a lot of off road riding(dirt bikes) as well as gravel riding on sport tourers(doesn't mean I know a damn thing,I realize). Seems in some situations I wouldn't want linked brakes even if ABS.Wadda u think?

 
ok, even if linked brakes are ABS also, the front wheel will slow in graval ,right? That's enough to dump you in some situations,I think.Maybe. I've done a lot of off road riding(dirt bikes) as well as gravel riding on sport tourers(doesn't mean I know a damn thing,I realize). Seems in some situations I wouldn't want linked brakes even if ABS.Wadda u think?
ABS would work because it does not wait for the wheel to lock..but simply slow down more than the other wheel.If it does it releases the wheel so it matches the speed of the other one. So going down a gravel hill you can't get the front wheel to "slow down" more than the rear one.

And yes, there may be a few very specific instances that the linked/ABS brakes of the new FJR may not be the best system. But you have to compare that to all the other enviroments that they simply out perform in. I do not do alot of off road riding on a street bike. The advantages of the new brakes on day to day riding under most of the crap nature will throw at you, rain, sand, etc...make them far better than anything else out there.

KM

 
...ABS on the other hand can outbrake normal brakes...
Uh, no. Their cyclical, on-off nature is not as effective as threshold braking.

ABS' true value for the majority of riders, the majority of the time is that you can brake w/o thinking. Comes in handy at the end of a long day, when the twilight limits your view and the road is nasty with either man-made or nature's own mess.

Where it does not come in handy is when you're attempting to stop on a rippled surface. My R1150RSA's EVIL, er, uh, EVO ABS system will quite merrily chatter the front tire right through the stop sign at the bottom of the hill by the lake.

In cars, ABS allows you to manuver as well although the majority of accidents I've worked where there were braking indications showed the skip-skip-skip pattern in a straight line right up `till the point where the resistable force met the immovable object...

 
  That being the case...for me...all the problems listed as "what can go wrong" would more or less be solved. Your front end will wash out in gravel if you use too much front break...because the wheel looses friction and locks up. If the front wheel won't lock..you don't "go down". KM
This is not correct. The bike falls because traction is lost.
At any time on a given surface, the tire can produce a given amount of traction. If the tire has 5 "pounds" of traction, and four "pounds" are being used to turn the bike, and then if braking is applied that waould use 2 "pounds" of traction, the bike will slide laterally, and probably fall. The sliding wheel can still be rolling when that happens.

That is also why ABS does not prevent "spin outs". Either front or rear wheel can be rolling under braking, and as long as they are rolling and not approaching impending lock-up the ABS system does nothing to reduce brake pressure. If the later traction limit is reached, the wheels slide sideways - and ABS continues to do nothing.

It is only in Stability Control sytems in FOUR-wheel vehicles that PART of the system that ALSO functions in response to ABS commands to reduce brake pressure, is ALSO used to remove braking force from an outside rear wheel - thus removeing any braking traction demand and allowing the now unused braking demand force traction to be used to allow the laterally sliding tire to regain traction. Such sytems also can function to stop a slide, when no braking input is present, to apply brake force to the inside front wheel, and sometimes even a lesser brake force to the inside rear wheel.

Part of the remainder of your post states Preference, opininion, and I would never argue that. It also contains some truths about ABS and Linked brakes functions, and their benefits. However, the item you stated and I quoted is NOT a support for those truths. Other things make them true.

Best wishes.

 
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But, let's get at least one aspect of braking straight:Linked Brakes do not stop a bike more quickly or in a shorter distance than Non-linked Brakes for a given bike.
You are dead, flat arss WRONG!!!! Linked brakes will stop a bike considerable quicker than non linked brakes for all but professional racers who know how to apply non-linked brake properly in an emergency situtation.......an do so upteen times a race...

For the rest of us, who've never had an emergency thrown at us to the degree our life depended on stopping in the shortest possible distance, YOU WANT LINKED BRAKES.....

Beem me up scottie, there's no signs of intelligent life here.......
You are obviously a troll.
Perhaps you are so defensive of what you conceive of your limited ability to control a motorcycle that you missed, or chose to ingnore plain, consistent, and simple English and its meaning.

To lay it out even more simply for the Troll-fearing. BRAKES is BRAKES. Linked brakes to not have more "power" than non-linked brakes and thus cannot bring about more stopping ability, and therefore cannot stop a motorcycle faster. Get it? BRAKES is the subject - not Riders.

THE RIDER will apply pressures to brakes as they see fit. They will be able to do that upward toward the level of getting whatever braking system they are using to apply THE BRAKING SYSTEM'S maximum capability. How far toward that Maximum Capability the rider can, or ever does rise in an incident, may or may not be realted to thier status as a professional racer.

The fact remains, the linked brake bike does not have any more capability to stop than the same model without linked brakes.

YOUR ability to use a bike's brakes does not change the BIKE'S ability stop - which is the point of my post you seem to have missed, or just rudely ignored.

And calling me names doesn't change that.

 
ok, even if linked brakes are ABS also, the front wheel will slow in graval ,right? That's enough to dump you in some situations,I think.Maybe. I've done a lot of off road riding(dirt bikes) as well as gravel riding on sport tourers(doesn't mean I know a damn thing,I realize). Seems in some situations I wouldn't want linked brakes even if ABS.Wadda u think?
ABS would work because it does not wait for the wheel to lock..but simply slow down more than the other wheel.If it does it releases the wheel so it matches the speed of the other one. So going down a gravel hill you can't get the front wheel to "slow down" more than the rear one.

KM
Again, you've made good points, but the quoted item is not true.

ABS systems us a base line principle of "Impending Lock-up". They will be optimized "backward" from this direction - not from the base principle of "keeping both wheels turning the same speed".

How that works out is that different ABS systems will be set to allow different amounts of sliding. Just as in conering, underbraking, tires are always sliding - that's how they produce friction, and thus traction.

For braking, optimum deceleration occurs when the contact patch is rolling at 20% of the vehicle velocity. The great motorcycle ABS systems, or great modes of other motorcycle ABS systems actually allow visible and audible tire sliding - while still rolling.

How the system might sense the vehicle's velocity (in order to make that comparison), is to take the sensing information about wheel/contact patch speed from the other wheel. Some people mistake this comparative input as being used to for "Velocity Leveling".

The Excepteion - NEARLY an Exception:

It is true that later versions of BMW's motorcycle ABS does compare wheel velocities and then take action when too much of a difference is sensed: Relase all brake pressure to both wheels - which it also does if its target impending lock up threshold is surpassed by both wheels. This is why many of us HATE that system: There is a long - and dangerous - delay until rolling speed can next be established, and the ABS function restarted.

 
To lay it out even more simply for the Troll-fearing. BRAKES is BRAKES. Linked brakes to not have more "power" than non-linked brakes and thus cannot bring about more stopping ability, and therefore cannot stop a motorcycle faster. Get it? BRAKES is the subject - not Riders.
THE RIDER will apply pressures to brakes as they see fit. They will be able to do that upward toward the level of getting whatever braking system they are using to apply THE BRAKING SYSTEM'S maximum capability. How far toward that Maximum Capability the rider can, or ever does rise in an incident, may or may not be realted to thier status as a professional racer.

The fact remains, the linked brake bike does not have any more capability to stop than the same model without linked brakes.

YOUR ability to use a bike's brakes does not change the BIKE'S ability stop - which is the point of my post you seem to have missed, or just rudely ignored.

And calling me names doesn't change that.
I'll restate this to where even you can understand it.......

Which bike would stop faster assuming you only hit one brake like you'd probobly do in an emergency panic stop where your life's flashing in front of your eyes type of stop where you got about 1/00 of a second to respond with some type of hard as hell braking or your gonna freaking DIE!!) I suggest you don't really know the answer to that, as it's a wild guess as to how your subconsious would respond to hitting either or both brakes...which is my point...

Back to the question, Which would result in a faster stop?

1. Rider hits only the front brake with unlinked brakes....

2. Rider hits only the rear brake with unlinked brakes

or

3. rider with linked brakes hitting either one

Hint: How many guys made up the 3 stooges.....?

MOE?

 
...ABS on the other hand can outbrake normal brakes...
Uh, no. Their cyclical, on-off nature is not as effective as threshold braking.
I do understand some of my mistakes in my posts here..but I must point out in this instance I did use the word "Can" and not "will always"

Under many conditions Non ABS bikes will stop faster ..but in many other cases..like wet roads..ABS bikes "can" outbreak bikes not so equiped. Even tests with experiance riders shows that... of course, there are excpetions, and that is why I used the word.

Not everyone has had years of riding or can say 100% in a panic situation what they will do. The real world is also diffrent than test tracks.

So yes, there are alot of variables here.

KM

 
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downn2,

How about rider makes a concerted effort to learn how to optimize his equipment rather than just being along for the ride.

If you practice threshold breaking, you'll do it automatically when the situation calls for it. That's known as taking responsibility for your life and choices.

 
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Seems that most every forum I visit.... no matter what the member makeup... no matter what the bike platform is..... the subject of LBS and ABS seems stir the fires almost as much as the "best oil" debate, "best tire" debate, "best break-in procecure" debate, etc, etc, etc.

So.....

I hereby relegate this subject into the "Never-ending, meaningless and pointless" category!

Off we go to the proper forum.....

 
downn2,
How about rider makes a concerted effort to learn how to optimize his equipment rather than just being along for the ride.

If you practice threshold breaking, you'll do it automatically when the situation calls for it. That's known as taking responsibility for your life and choices.
x 2.

I already know what I do in a panic situation.

I haved practiced it for years and when the situation comes up, do what I practice.

I have used it. Practice, muscle memory, etc.

rdfrantz, I hope you know my last post (Troll) was not towards you.

Oh why do I bother, because today I felt like wasting away on the web.

I should know better but it makes me chuckle.

 
I'll restate this to where even you can understand it.......
Which bike would stop faster assuming you only hit one brake like you'd probobly do in an emergency panic stop where your life's flashing in front of your eyes type of stop where you got about 1/00 of a second to respond with some type of hard as hell braking or your gonna freaking DIE!!) I suggest you don't really know the answer to that, as it's a wild guess as to how your subconsious would respond to hitting either or both brakes...which is my point...

Back to the question, Which would result in a faster stop?

1. Rider hits only the front brake with unlinked brakes....

2. Rider hits only the rear brake with unlinked brakes

or

3. rider with linked brakes hitting either one

Hint: How many guys made up the 3 stooges.....?

MOE?
I really don't understand why you are being rude to me. My post was a reply to someone ELSE who replied to a post I made. It was about the capability of brake systems. It had nothing to do with YOU.
I have not at any time "spoken to you", and your apparently highly emotional concerns.

But I will. Now.

First, I avoid many evolving situations that call for maximum braking. That's because I've ridden well over a million miles in the last 35 years, and folded that riding experience into ways to ride that have me handing situatoins before they reach the critical level. That's further enhanced by the fact that I prective riding regularly, both the physical riding abilities and developed skills, and in situation handling and response. As well, I am a riding instructor. That has me continually reviewing sound ways to ride that both produce fun, and keep my wellbeing intact - and successfully passing those on to others. The end result is I am a TRAINED rider, controlling my motorcycle in the circumstances I'm faceing, rather then an emotional accessory to a bike moving along as if it had a mind of its own.

None the less, it does arise that I need to use maximum braking from time to time. In the last year I can recall three such times - in 68,000 miles. All three times I applied both front and rear brakes, fully to the threshold SHORT of ABS activation, which in fact did occur in the last 3 feet or so of the two full stops that arose - the other slowing maneuver simiply got me down from 65 mph to 35 mph whereupon I swerved around the hazzard.

In short, I did what I was trained to do. And of that, I neither desire nor deserve any "awards" beyond havning saved my own bacon. I do note that salavation would not have been realized had I not trained to ride a bike quite well, but instead simply mashed the rear brake, in ignorance of the fact there was a better way to ride.

I once did live in such ignorance. But, when that veil was lifted, I realized it would only be my own sloth that would leave me with that same dangerous liability if I did not do something to make use of the broaer knowedge of others so I could take better care of myself. So I did the work, and I've now got the skills, that are going to save me from some things my prior ignorance, and then lack of work/training, would not have.

There is no right answer to the question you propose. There are still factors beyond what you have stated that affect the outcomes.

But, setting those variables aside, the general, very general, order of stopping distances would be:

Both brakes, linked or not

Front only, linked or not

Non-linked brake front only

Rear only, linked or not

The problem is you assume that brakes linked front-to-rear (or rear-to-front) stop shorter than a non-linked. The tests I have done, and repeated several times, do not bear this out.

Using VFR models with the same tires that had both linked and unlinked brakes, in ten stops from 60 mph there were just as many times the non-linked bike stopped shorter as the other way round. The average difference was less than two feet. This is not a statistically relvant value since it is smaller than the Standard Deviation.

In other words, they stop in the same distance. Because the linking has been made nearly ineffective so as not to produce detrimental effects.

The same test performed on two versions of the K1200RS (front-to-rear linking only) showed vastly different results - very much in favor of the linked brake bike. Why so?

The BMW system was capable of applying maximum brake pressure to the rear brake when the only the front lever was pressed.

This is NOT the kind of system that is, or will be, used on other brands of motorcycles - for the forseable future. It is a powered system with computer controls. It is prone to failures, devastating failures, it is heavy, and it is very costly. It has been set aside by BMW in their current models, as they continue to sort through solutions to a problems, to get good stopping results and not add detriments.

Anyway, when you do apply both brakes using the BMW system, and do the same with any other similar bike like an FJR, the BMW does not stop shorter, significantly or otherwise.

The bottom line is that among linked and non-linked bikes, whether we're talking ftont-to-rear linking or rear-to-front linking, the bike which stops shorter does so because the rider did the better job of manipulating the brakes veruss the traction threshold, and/or versus the ABS threshold. Doing that consistently requires training.

Why not train to use both brakes well rather than train to use only one?

Then your question goes away.

Email me and I'll even send you the materials to help do that.

Best wishes.

 
Well, I have the perfect example of an instance where, had I linked brakes (and/or ABS), I would not have locked the rear and, I have it on video! Simple scenario; group ride, bunched up and someone in front whoaed - up quicker than I could react. Not scary or anything just a quick surprise. Since my foot was already on the brake pedal and my fingers were still around the throttle grip, guess which brake activated first... Uh huh. Righteo! Look for the video tomorrow, I hope. It'll be in 'Images'.

 
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TWN's poll may be unfair..but I "voted" for the linked brakes...only because I know that I would favor them as long as the bike had ABS also. I would not want linked brakes without ABS. That being the case...for me...all the problems listed as "what can go wrong" would more or less be solved. Your front end will wash out in gravel if you use too much front break...because the wheel looses friction and locks up. If the front wheel won't lock..you don't "go down".

I have ridden bikes in gravel, snow, and ice..and you only needed to put just a bit of pressure on the front brake lever to break the front tire loose. If there was an ABS system working here..it should keep that from happening. Linked or not.

The reason I voted for linked brekes is I think they have their advantages on a "touring" bike. We should always ride with our foot near the rear brake and our fingers near the front lever...but there are times riding that they are not. If a situation arrises that requires immediate braking...having the brakes linked...along with ABS..can save your ***.

KM
But on the 06 ABS the front 4 calipers can be applied without activating the rear for full front wheel braking. The rear can be applied alone with moderate pressure. Press hard on the rear and the link is made with the remaining two calipers on the front.

Ya gotta go back to basics here. Remember you have a dollars worth of grip. Slam on the ABS and you are using up 95c for braking and that leaves 10c for cornering. If you need 20c for cornering you better back off the brake or you are going down - linked - abs or manual!!!

Coefficient of friction et al.

Yamahammer got it figured out for y'all. (for me too)

 
A perfect example of why I ride with two finerg covering the front brake lever at all times. Regardless of what almost two decades of ERC instructors have told me.

Fourty years of practice can let you blip the throttle, downshift and threshold brake all at the same time. If I can learn, most anyone can.

 
Well, I have the perfect example of an instance where, had I linked brakes (and/or ABS), I would not have locked the rear and, I have it on video! Simple scenario; group ride, bunched up and someone in front whoaed - up quicker than I could react. Not scary or anything just a quick surprise. Since my foot was already on the brake pedal and my fingers were still around the throttle grip, guess which brake activated first... Uh huh. Righteo! Look for the video tomorrow, I hope. It'll be in 'Images'.
A very good reason for linked rear to front brakes with ABS !!

 
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