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Brakes, I don't need no steenking brakes, they are for *******!
TWN's Poll
- Thread starter charismaticmegafauna
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Knifemaker
Not me
I'd have to agree with Warchild on this ..too many opinions here. And I might add, not enough facts. No one I know has a 2006 yet to give a report on the brakes and how well/notwell they work.
Everyone also has their own idea of what a motorcycle should be. At least we are all agreed on the fact that the FJR is a great bike.
I think that ABS is a wonderful thing for bikes in general and wish more bikes had it as an option. Picking apart all the rather small instances where linked brakes would not be "good" is to me intresting, but as a whole fairly silly. Again, in general, for the bulk of riders and new riders out there, it presents another useful safety feature that will, I am sure, help keep accidents down.
As American consumers, we always have the choice to spend our money where we see fit, and those that do not want ABS or linked brakes can find many models of really great bikes that do not have them.
Knifemaker
Everyone also has their own idea of what a motorcycle should be. At least we are all agreed on the fact that the FJR is a great bike.
I think that ABS is a wonderful thing for bikes in general and wish more bikes had it as an option. Picking apart all the rather small instances where linked brakes would not be "good" is to me intresting, but as a whole fairly silly. Again, in general, for the bulk of riders and new riders out there, it presents another useful safety feature that will, I am sure, help keep accidents down.
As American consumers, we always have the choice to spend our money where we see fit, and those that do not want ABS or linked brakes can find many models of really great bikes that do not have them.
Knifemaker
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throttlejockeyTJ
throttlejockeyTJ
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I like independant ABS brakes. WC is correct in the problem with linked brakes. A MC is different than a car. Properly used independant ABS brakes work the best for a MC. Link brakes are for novices that want to stop with their foot, and are unskilled as far as MC controls go. ABS ONLY works braking in a strait line. ABS braking leaning over with todays technology doesn't factor in traction used up in leaning over. 
twowheelnut
R.I.P. Our Motorcycling Friend
Bah! And I suppose GP & F1 ban such technologies because they don't give the rider/driver an edge??? Righttttt. Go on thinking these aids don't help the bulk of drivers and riders...
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twowheelnut
R.I.P. Our Motorcycling Friend
Same reasons ABS doesn't work in deep snow or sand. Then again, we ain't talkin' off-road...
twowheelnut
R.I.P. Our Motorcycling Friend
I've ridden my LBS equipped VFR on gravel (nasty downhill hairpin turns) with no ill affect on handling/braking.
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tripletango
Well-known member
They may even help our forum members when they are having an off day, me included. Hell we all make mistakes. One can only hope these advances get us off the hook when we are challenged by circumstances created by us or some other unpredictable situation.
They are certainly not the be all and end all and we are ultimately responsible but sometimes I need all the help I can get!!
twowheelnut
R.I.P. Our Motorcycling Friend
Exactly my point... It is my argument that these systems are at their most benefit when - and it is when, not if - we make mistakes. Hell, I'll man-up and admit that there is not one ride that I don't make a least one mistake, no matter how insignificant. Fact is, I'll be providing proof as soon as Google 'verifies' my video.
I had a 98se. At every ERC course I ever took, they told me I could sit out the "lock the rear wheel" exercise since Wings don't lock up. Each time, I went out on the course and showed them how it was done... any time I wanted. It wasn't even difficult (imo). Keep in mind that the GL1500's didn't have ABS.
I have no dog in this fight, but wanted to ask one question:
I don't see this happening and consider it a straw man. I always use both brakes in concert and have since getting my first decent training course. I *have* been in emergency braking situations in the few miles and years I've ridden. I've always used both brakes as a result of training and practice (reflex and "muscle memory").
tripletango
Well-known member
Good points but I bet you cannot beat the computer when the road surface changes unexpectedly.
Yes in good adhesion conditions you can max out braking. Most of us can do that. Think of the worst case scenario and that is where these systems may save your life!
There is no "computer" to a linked braking system. It's typically a proportioning valve (or several). Perhaps you're confusing that with the ABS system. It uses a computer, but isn't the same as a LBS; which is what this thread was about.
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tripletango
Well-known member
Understand thanks, my comments are generally based on the total system. In reading articles it seems that the 06 linked system maybe a little more intelligent though. In previous post i indicated that full rear wheel braking with no link is available to a point and then the front is connected in a limited way through 2 of the 6 calipers.
Maybe someone can fill us in on this technology?
torch
Well-known member
My 03 FJR has a sophisticated braking control computer. The intellegent system is not only adaptive -- ie it learns from it's previous mistakes -- it is also predictive: it can sense the road conditions ahead and make the necessary adjustments before problems occur. No other system on the market today has that capability -- all others are limited to reacting to problems after they occur. The predictive nature of this system permits safely locking either wheel when appropriate, prevents lock-ups when detrimental and calculates sliding forces when braking in a curve, transmitting the results of those calculations to both the braking system and the integrated throttle control module.
It is not confined to a simple single proportioning ratio, it has infinite variability between front and rear brake application pressure based on the computer's analysis of the conditions. The system is comprised of a distributed-intellegence network so that if one component is not operating at peak efficiency the other components will compensate automatically. (obviously, the system works best when all components are at 100%)
As with all computers, the system is only as good as the software (AKA Garbag In, Garbage Out). Since the software is continually re-writing itself, this system improves with time and experience. It should not be fitted to a high performance motorcycle like the FJR until it has been adequately debugged through a thorough Beta test program.
The system is not cheap: prototype development is measured in millions of years and a new production model requires 16 years to manufacture and another 5 years or so to program and debug. The unit currently fitted to my FJR actually has closer to 30 years of software refinement, but it's an older model that may not be as efficient as current units. The cost of development has precluded Yamaha (or any other manufacturer) from incorporating this system into their models at the factory so they are now offering a cheaper, less efficient system instead. On the plus side, my system can easily be transfered to any other model motorcycle out there with a simple software update.
It is not confined to a simple single proportioning ratio, it has infinite variability between front and rear brake application pressure based on the computer's analysis of the conditions. The system is comprised of a distributed-intellegence network so that if one component is not operating at peak efficiency the other components will compensate automatically. (obviously, the system works best when all components are at 100%)
As with all computers, the system is only as good as the software (AKA Garbag In, Garbage Out). Since the software is continually re-writing itself, this system improves with time and experience. It should not be fitted to a high performance motorcycle like the FJR until it has been adequately debugged through a thorough Beta test program.
The system is not cheap: prototype development is measured in millions of years and a new production model requires 16 years to manufacture and another 5 years or so to program and debug. The unit currently fitted to my FJR actually has closer to 30 years of software refinement, but it's an older model that may not be as efficient as current units. The cost of development has precluded Yamaha (or any other manufacturer) from incorporating this system into their models at the factory so they are now offering a cheaper, less efficient system instead. On the plus side, my system can easily be transfered to any other model motorcycle out there with a simple software update.
Knifemaker
Not me
Well, herin lies the problem .... many companies , like Yamaha , are aware that some of their higher performance bikes are being fitted with early versions of this software. Some not tested at all, and some simply not updated enough to run a machine as complex as the FJR.
Many say dealers are at fault here, selling bikes that they know will be fitted with improper software. The dealers point out of course that there is no law governing this, and what they are doing is legal.
The bad part here is that because this practice exsists , the incidents of hardware damage and software container breakage have risen. And to make matters worse, in some instances companies like Yamaha are getting sued..not for selling bikes that they know will be fitted with improper software..but for not designing the bike to work with it in the first place.
So, some of the new systems now fitted to motorcycles at the factory are put there on purpose to help the bike compensate for the fitting of these inferior versions of this software.
Until laws change to keep these untested or early software packages off bikes , more complex hardware will likely be added to motorcycles by the makers.
It seems obvious to me that we can not blame the companies themselves here, but only the ridiculous laws we have in our country that support these bad software programs.
Knifemaker
twowheelnut
R.I.P. Our Motorcycling Friend
Howdja do it? I literally stood on the brake lever with my heal and they would lock up...
twowheelnut
R.I.P. Our Motorcycling Friend
I agree with you Torch, but the fact remains that no matter how much adaptive and predictive skills you have, when Bambi wants to bag a biker as she leaps from behind her blind, linked brakes are gonna help whoa you down better and safer than your described 'computer' can. Why? Your computer is subject to panicked reactions, LBS is not.My 03 FJR has a sophisticated braking control computer. The intellegent system is not only adaptive -- ie it learns from it's previous mistakes -- it is also predictive: it can sense the road conditions ahead and make the necessary adjustments before problems occur. No other system on the market today has that capability -- all others are limited to reacting to problems after they occur. The predictive nature of this system permits safely locking either wheel when appropriate, prevents lock-ups when detrimental and calculates sliding forces when braking in a curve, transmitting the results of those calculations to both the braking system and the integrated throttle control module.
It is not confined to a simple single proportioning ratio, it has infinite variability between front and rear brake application pressure based on the computer's analysis of the conditions. The system is comprised of a distributed-intellegence network so that if one component is not operating at peak efficiency the other components will compensate automatically. (obviously, the system works best when all components are at 100%)
As with all computers, the system is only as good as the software (AKA Garbag In, Garbage Out). Since the software is continually re-writing itself, this system improves with time and experience. It should not be fitted to a high performance motorcycle like the FJR until it has been adequately debugged through a thorough Beta test program.
The system is not cheap: prototype development is measured in millions of years and a new production model requires 16 years to manufacture and another 5 years or so to program and debug. The unit currently fitted to my FJR actually has closer to 30 years of software refinement, but it's an older model that may not be as efficient as current units. The cost of development has precluded Yamaha (or any other manufacturer) from incorporating this system into their models at the factory so they are now offering a cheaper, less efficient system instead. On the plus side, my system can easily be transfered to any other model motorcycle out there with a simple software update.
Remember this priceless piece of descriptive?:
I would wager that had the ST had LBS, the rider would have whoaed up more with it than without it and by locking the rear he actually increased his stopping (slowing?) distance rather than shortened it...
Anywho... Cheese, anyone?
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tripletango
Well-known member
Where can I get one????My 03 FJR has a sophisticated braking control computer. The intellegent system is not only adaptive -- ie it learns from it's previous mistakes -- it is also predictive: it can sense the road conditions ahead and make the necessary adjustments before problems occur. No other system on the market today has that capability -- all others are limited to reacting to problems after they occur. The predictive nature of this system permits safely locking either wheel when appropriate, prevents lock-ups when detrimental and calculates sliding forces when braking in a curve, transmitting the results of those calculations to both the braking system and the integrated throttle control module.
It is not confined to a simple single proportioning ratio, it has infinite variability between front and rear brake application pressure based on the computer's analysis of the conditions. The system is comprised of a distributed-intellegence network so that if one component is not operating at peak efficiency the other components will compensate automatically. (obviously, the system works best when all components are at 100%)
As with all computers, the system is only as good as the software (AKA Garbag In, Garbage Out). Since the software is continually re-writing itself, this system improves with time and experience. It should not be fitted to a high performance motorcycle like the FJR until it has been adequately debugged through a thorough Beta test program.
The system is not cheap: prototype development is measured in millions of years and a new production model requires 16 years to manufacture and another 5 years or so to program and debug. The unit currently fitted to my FJR actually has closer to 30 years of software refinement, but it's an older model that may not be as efficient as current units. The cost of development has precluded Yamaha (or any other manufacturer) from incorporating this system into their models at the factory so they are now offering a cheaper, less efficient system instead. On the plus side, my system can easily be transfered to any other model motorcycle out there with a simple software update.
