Where can a Pontiac beat 9 Porches and 4 Corvettes?

[Fencer]

I took My father on a date yest to the Rolex Grand-Am series at Barbers On Sat. 96 laps that was WAYYYYY better than any Nascar junk. Why you ask? It had both Right and Left turns, hills, chicanes, and sandtraps for starters.

I had never seen a Pontiac GPX-R but Once you hear this thing.... OOOOHHH... you want it. I was a deep throaty V8 that would make any Muscle car fanatic dribble. The GTO sounded pretty good too. Not what I would expect from Pontiac. The Corvetts sounded good as well, but just didn't have the same rumble as the GPX-R.

From the get-go the Pontiac DOMINATED the course of Porche GT-3s, a 997, 2 RX-8s 4 Corvettes, a GTO, and 2 Nissan 350 Zs that did not make it off the starting lap - both died on the scout lap!!.

The final result was a 25 second win for the GPX-R. It would have been larger as at lap 53 a Corvette cought fire and they ran a few laps under caution allowing everyone to pack back up.

I want THAT sound from my Feej!!!

Your Winner here #7, his teamate # 6 came in 5th

 

[wfooshee]

I was supposed to be there, a volunteer in the museum (basically extra "don't touch that!" staff) but had some employer obligations that he seemed to think were more important.

BTW, anybody who's within 500 miles of the place and skips the museum needs to have all their bikes taken away from them, as they don't deserve to keep riding.

 

[kansas transit]

Sounds like you had a great day. Since I love my old pontiacs I'm glad that a pontiac dominated the field. A lot of people lambasted pontiac for leaving nascar, but they have been owning a lot of road race courses since they switched.I"m patiently waiting for the new g8 or upcoming gto

 

[uctofeej]

Thanks for the post, Fencer. 'Bout time Pontiac made some serious strides back into racing. It's not the first time they've whipped up on the big boys. Once read an article from '64 or so when the Ferrari boys made a stink after Pontiac named the Catalina a 2+2. Apparently, the Italians thought they owned the name. Pontiac challenged them to a road race to keep the name. Guess who won...

 

[black mamba]

Hey uctofeej...

You're close to being right. It was actually the GTO, first introduced in 1964, that Ferrari complained about. Pontiac ran some test on the 0-60 and quarter mile times that they claimed to better the Ferrari times. There was one little detail that Pontiac failed to mention, however. These test GTOs were bogus. They had been especially prepared by Royal Pontiac and were actually running 421 c.i. motors rather than the 389 c.i. motors that came stock. When word got out about the deception, it caused quite a stink.

I had one of the first issue GTOs. Tri-Power and 4 speed. With a little tweaking, I got it to run in the high 13's in the quarter. Straight-line performance was pretty good....it didn't turn or stop worth a damn. I eventually ended up putting a blower on the thing, plus a few other mods, and got the quarter mile time down into the 11's. Ran like grazy until it blew up.

It all brings back memories.

 

[uctofeej]

Hey uctofeej...
You're close to being right. It was actually the GTO, first introdeuced in 1964, that Ferrari complained about. Pontiac ran some test on the 0-60 and quarter mile times that they claimed to better the Ferrari times. There was one little detail that Pontiac failed to mention, however. These test GTOs were bogus. They had been especially prepared by Royal Pontiac and were actually running 421 c.i. motors rather than the 389 c.i. motors that came stock. When word got out about the deception, it caused quite a stink.

I had one of the first issue GTOs. Tri-Power and 4 speed. With a little tweaking, I got it to run in the high 13's in the quarter. Straight-line performance was pretty good....it didn't turn or stop worth a damn. I eventually ended up putting a blower on the thing, plus a few other mods, and got the quarter mile time down into the 11's. Ran like grazy until it blew up.

It all brings back memories.

Mamba, you lucky dog. Been a Goat fan all my life, but never owned one. Closest I came was a '71 T-37.

My memory may be faulty, but I thought the GTO thing was a follow-up to the 2+2 duel, sort of Ferrari's revenge. It's been many years since I've seen the article (R&T, Car & Driver, Motor Trend, one of those...) I'll have to look it up.

And being right was never my specialty, being close is on par for me :huh:

 

[kansas transit]

Thanks for the post, Fencer. 'Bout time Pontiac made some serious strides back into racing. It's not the first time they've whipped up on the big boys. Once read an article from '64 or so when the Ferrari boys made a stink after Pontiac named the Catalina a 2+2. Apparently, the Italians thought they owned the name. Pontiac challenged them to a road race to keep the name. Guess who won...

uctofeej, well although black is technically right on the GTO end with Ferrari, you also are partially correct about the 2+2. In 1964, a bobcat tuned 421 2+2 catalina recorded one of the fastest 0-60 times by a PRODUCTION based car. 0-60 came in 3.9 seconds. Along the same lines, in 1963 at the Daytona Speed Trials, one of the fastest cars there was a 1963 Pontiac Lemans 421SD. Only about 12 of these cars were ever built and rumor has it this car was bought by Mercedes Benz and shipped to Germany never to be seen again. Check out my 1963 Lemans in my avatar.

 

[mike25]

In 1964, a bobcat tuned 421 2+2 catalina recorded one of the fastest 0-60 times by a PRODUCTION based car. 0-60 came in 3.9 seconds.

Kansas, I don't know where your info came from, but i'm calling

******** !!!

 

[kansas transit]

In 1964, a bobcat tuned 421 2+2 catalina recorded one of the fastest 0-60 times by a PRODUCTION based car. 0-60 came in 3.9 seconds.


Kansas, I don't know where your info came from, but i'm calling

******** !!!

ok BUT i suggest you look it up. lol

 

[fjr]

In 1964, a bobcat tuned 421 2+2 catalina recorded one of the fastest 0-60 times by a PRODUCTION based car. 0-60 came in 3.9 seconds.


Kansas, I don't know where your info came from, but i'm calling

******** !!!

ok BUT i suggest you look it up. lol

I don't need to look that up. I remember that. :lol:

 

[kansas transit]

mike 25, I understand your doubt and no I wasn't there but I have the article that it's in. I'm on my way out the door headed for harligen tx I'll be gone 3 days. When I get back I will find it and post it. I just didn't want you thinking me not posting for a couple of days was my way of not answering you. p/s I doubt the number could be duplicated. thats a big heavy car but they were fast and who knows who had there finger on the stopwatch.

 

[uctofeej]

mike 25, I understand your doubt and no I wasn't there but I have the article that it's in. I'm on my way out the door headed for harligen tx I'll be gone 3 days. When I get back I will find it and post it. I just didn't want you thinking me not posting for a couple of days was my way of not answering you. p/s I doubt the number could be duplicated. thats a big heavy car but they were fast and who knows who had there finger on the stopwatch.

Here's a reference to an article about those early articles: Clicky

"The press reports were beyond fawning, and bordered on the embarrassing. Car and Driver, hoping to re-capture the zeitgeist of the GTO vs. GTO test that launched the title to the stratosphere the previous year, hoped lightning would strike twice with 2+2 vs. 2+2... this time, a Tri-Power 421 4-speed Pontiac versus a Ferrari 330GT 2+2. Prepped at Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac, where all of Pontiac's press-car ringers were tweaked in the 1960s, not only did the American 2+2 accelerate to 60mph in less than four seconds (!), without the benefit of 4.11 gears or slicks (!!), but it was just half a second slower around the Bridgehampton race circuit than the Ferrari in the hands of two-time USGP winner Walt Hansgen. Quotes like "It doesn't just go around the corner, it does a mighty fine job of it!" and "I don't think the Ferrari would be quite as good in the rain as the Pontiac, but that's largely because of the [Ferrari's] disc brakes" and "if we could get every American car on the road to handle and perform this well, I think we'd be doing a tremendous job toward having safer American highways," all attributed to Hansgen, dotted the piece. Motor Trend simply cut to the chase and gave the entire 1965 Pontiac line its Car of the Year award--2+2 included."

The referenced Motor Trend article is the one I read years ago.

Like the Lemans, Kansas. My T-37 was purchased by my great-grandfather. Have the original window sticker, warranty plate, etc. Love those old Pontiacs.

 

[fjr]

mike 25, I understand your doubt and no I wasn't there but I have the article that it's in. I'm on my way out the door headed for harligen tx I'll be gone 3 days. When I get back I will find it and post it. I just didn't want you thinking me not posting for a couple of days was my way of not answering you. p/s I doubt the number could be duplicated. thats a big heavy car but they were fast and who knows who had there finger on the stopwatch.

Here's a reference to an article about those early articles: Clicky

"The press reports were beyond fawning, and bordered on the embarrassing. Car and Driver, hoping to re-capture the zeitgeist of the GTO vs. GTO test that launched the title to the stratosphere the previous year, hoped lightning would strike twice with 2+2 vs. 2+2... this time, a Tri-Power 421 4-speed Pontiac versus a Ferrari 330GT 2+2. Prepped at Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac, where all of Pontiac's press-car ringers were tweaked in the 1960s, not only did the American 2+2 accelerate to 60mph in less than four seconds (!), without the benefit of 4.11 gears or slicks (!!), but it was just half a second slower around the Bridgehampton race circuit than the Ferrari in the hands of two-time USGP winner Walt Hansgen. Quotes like "It doesn't just go around the corner, it does a mighty fine job of it!" and "I don't think the Ferrari would be quite as good in the rain as the Pontiac, but that's largely because of the [Ferrari's] disc brakes" and "if we could get every American car on the road to handle and perform this well, I think we'd be doing a tremendous job toward having safer American highways," all attributed to Hansgen, dotted the piece. Motor Trend simply cut to the chase and gave the entire 1965 Pontiac line its Car of the Year award--2+2 included."

The referenced Motor Trend article is the one I read years ago.

Like the Lemans, Kansas. My T-37 was purchased by my great-grandfather. Have the original window sticker, warranty plate, etc. Love those old Pontiacs.

I remember as a kid reading it I thought it was a typo.

Test results printed in Car and Driver, March 1965

 

[mike25]

Acceleration

0-60 mph: 8.1 seconds (3.9 seconds as modified)

1/4-mile ET: 16.4 seconds @ 88 mph

Top speed: 118 mph (132 mph as modified)

Now, I need to know what mods were done.

 

[kansas transit]

Well I'm back,I was going to run down stairs and start digging thru all my old mags for the article but I see someone has beat me to it. FJR, uctofeej thanks for having my back. Mike as I said that number may not be able to be duplicated and I'm sure it was under very favorable conditions, like a downhill strip with a tail wind. But I'll include some food for thought. Probably one of the quickest cars of that period was the 427/435 hp tripower corvette. The reason I bring this up is because I was ten years old in 1967 my dad had a 65 cat 421 tripower 8 lug wheels the works and he did his fair share of stoplight draging. I was with him two different times when a friend of his that had said corvette with a 4 speed got embarassed by a two ton pontiac family car. I was at an impressionable age and it stuck with me all these years. Before anyone goes of on a tangent on how could this happen, a couple things I will point out. First off a big block 67 corvette was not a good stoplight racer, why, it is nose heavy, has poor weight transfer, has an independent rear axle, Its superior aerodynamics don't come into play much under 50mph stoplight to stoplight most cars won't get over 60mph, The big poncho has a lot of rear overhang and a short front overhang great weight transfer, remember this was long before real wide tires or drag radials, actually the 8 lug whees on the cat had more rubber on the ground than the vette. The cat has a straight axle rear, and believe when I tell you a big block corvette was not as lite as you might believe probably around 700 pounds less than the cat. Also pontiacs have TORQUE I don't give a **** what the hp rating is torque is what gets it all moving. Oh by the way 0-60 corvette times---------low 4 sec range. As far as what was modded, probably less than you think. Bobcat tuneups usually consisted of recurving the dist. blueprinting the carbs, advancing cam timing pulling the heads and either thin headgaskets or shaving the heads. These engines didn't take much remember 11.75 comp. was stock!!! add in some 1.65 rocker arms for more lift and you pretty much have it. If you have never really looked at the design of the pontiac engine you should, really a great platform. Think about this,the motor started life in 1954 as a 265cuin in 1976 it was 455 cuin an overbore and offset grind the crank and you are close to 500 cuin. same basic design same bore spacing same external dims. same crank dim. The last ones built were a couple hundred 400s in 1978 that went into the 79 t/a, t/as Thats 25 years of production same basic motor. There is no big block small, no cleveland,windsor, or m motor, no wedge, hemi or raised deck, no y block, no shotguns, sideoilers or cammers. no w 348s or 409s. Pontiac did it all with one motor design and from 1957 to 1964 if you weren't racing a pontiac you were racing for the next finishing order after the last pontiac crossed the line. they owned the nascar tracks, the dragstrips and the street. It wasn't until gm made them pull out of racing that everyone else caught up. And if you think this is all 50s-60s history your wrong, the last real carb equipped musclecar?? 1973/74 t/a and formula SD455!!!! The mustang was a glorified pinto, the z28 was discontinued, the challenger was an import from mitsubishi, amc was almost gone. The glorious corvette?? an anemic 200hp small block. And if you think this engine died when it was discontinued your wrong again, 53 years after it was designed 27 years after the last one was built(not counting the 267,301 emision motors) there are more aftermaket parts available now than in its entire history. And the motor is more than competitive check out the muscle car series of drag racing pontiacs have walked away with the top class honors the last two years in a row. If you think I'm biased you right, however I'm also very open minded I have owned at one time or another just about every desirable muclecar built. But I've always come back. Unless you have felt for yourself the torque that trys to rip your spine out or hear a well tuned tripower at full song, you havn't lived.

 

[black mamba]

After my experiences with the '64 GTO ( see previous post ) my next performance car, for the street, was the '67 Corvette 427/435 roadster. Beautiful car...green with a white stinger stripe, side pipes.....the works. However, being my only streetable car at the time, it was less than desirable. It had no room for much of anything, was almost freightening to drive in the rain, and generally was not very suitable as an only car. WISH I HAD IT TODAY, but I got rid of it after about a year.

I got into flying about this time and hot cars kind of took a back seat for a while. Got back into the car scene with the purchase of a '74 Pontiac Trans Am SD 455. Only came in three colors....white,blue, or red like the one I got. Mine was an automatic. Bone stock, it ran a 14.1 quarter mile. It was quoted from the factory as having 290 H.P. I believe that was probably understated for insurance considerations and other political reasons. I eventually dropped in a Zoom 4:10 rear end, modified the transmission to produce hard and extreme shifts, and did some other mild engine work. I got the quarter mile time down into the low 13's. This was certainly one of my favorite cars. I eventually sold it to my brother who, because of an unfortunate oil-loss situation, burned the engine up. What a loss.

 

[kansas transit]

Man, I'll say what a loss. If you had those cars today you would have a pretty nice retirement portfolio.

 

[mike25]

50 FASTEST MUSCLECARS

# YEAR/MODEL ET/MPH ENGINE HP TRANS GEAR SOURCE

1 1997 Viper GTS 12.05@116 V10 450 six-speed 3.07 MM 8/97

2 1966 427 Cobra 12.20@118 427 8V 425 four-speed 3.54 CC 11/65

3 1990 ZR1 Corvette [email protected] LT5 350 375 six-speed 3.45 MT 4/90

4 1966 Corvette 427 12.8@112 L72 427 425 four-speed 3.36 CD 11/65

5 1969 Road Runner [email protected] 440 Six BBL 390 four-speed 4.10 SS 6/69

6 1997 Hurst/Firebird [email protected] 350 350 automatic 3.42 MCR 4/5 97

7 1970 Hemi Cuda [email protected] 426 Hemi 425 four-speed 3.54 CC 11/69

8 1992 Viper RT/10 13.1@108 488 V10 400 six-speed 3.07 CD 7/92

9 1970 Chevelle SS454 [email protected] 454 LS6 450 four-speed 3.55 CC 11/69

10 1969 Camaro [email protected] 427 ZL1 430 four-speed 4.10 HC 6/69

11 1997 Corvette [email protected] 350 LS-1 345 six-speed 3.42 MT 5/97

12 1997 SLP Camaro SS [email protected] 350 LT4 330 six-speed 3.42 MT 2/97

13 1990 Pontiac Firehawk 13.20@107 350 350 six-speed 3.54 CD 6/91

14 1968 Corvette 13.30@108 427 6V 435 four-speed 3.70 HC 5/68

15 1970 Road Runner [email protected] 426 Hemi 425 automatic 4.10 SS 12/69

16 1970 Buick GS Stage I [email protected] 455 Stage I 360 automatic 3.64 MT 1/70

17 1996 Camaro Z28 SS [email protected] 350 LT-1 310 six-speed 3.42 MCR F/M 96

18 1969 Charger 500 13.48@109 426 Hemi 425 four-speed 4.10 HR 2/69

19 1973 Trans Am [email protected] 455 SD 310 automatic 3.42 HR 6/73

20 1969 Corvette [email protected] 427 L88 430 automatic 3.36 HR 4/69

21 1969 Super Bee [email protected] 440 Six Pack 390 automatic 4.10 HR 8/69

22 1969 Boss 429 Mustang 13.60@106 Boss 429 375 four-speed 3.91 HC 9/69

23 1970 Challenger R/T [email protected] 440 Six Pack 390 automatic 3.23 CC 11/69

24 1970 Torino Cobra [email protected] 429 SCJ 370 automatic 3.91 SS 3/70

25 1968 Biscayne 13.65@105 427 L72 425 four-speed 4.56 SS 4/68

26 1995 Mustang Cobra R [email protected] 351 300 five-speed 3.27 MCR A/S 95

27 1964 Polara 500 [email protected] 426 4V 365 four-speed 3.23 HC 2/64

28 1996 Corvette GS [email protected] 350 LT-4 330 six-speed 3.45 RT 2/96

29 1969 GTX [email protected] 440 4V 375 automatic 4.10 MT 1/69

30 1987 Buick GNX 13.70@102 231 Turbo V6 300 automatic 3.42 HR 4/87

31 1969 Dart 440 13.71@105 440 4V 375 automatic 3.55 CC 5/69

32 1971 Road Runner [email protected] 440 Six BBL 390 automatic 4.10 CC 1/71

33 1971 Cuda 13.72@106 440 Six BBL 390 automatic 4.10 SS 4/71

34 1971 Corvette [email protected] 454 LS6 450 four-speed 3.36 CL 8/71

35 1971 Super Bee 13.73@104 426 Hemi 425 automatic 4.10 MT 12/70

36 1968 Hurst/Olds [email protected] 455 W-30 390 automatic 3.91 SS 8/68

37 1968 Firebird 13.79@106 400 HO 335 four-speed N/A HR 3/68

38 1967 Corvette 13.80@108 427 6V 435 four-speed 3.55 HR 5/67

39 1971 Boss 351 Mustang 13.80@104 Boss 351 330 four-speed 3.91 MT 1/71

40 1966 Satellite 13.81@104 426 Hemi 425 four-speed 3.54 CD 4/66

41 1969 Coronet R/T [email protected] 440 4V 375 four-speed 4.10 SS 4/69

42 1968 Cyclone GT [email protected] 428 CJ 335 automatic 4.11 MT 8/68

43 1969 Nova SS 396 [email protected] 396 4V 375 automatic 3.55 HR 7/69

44 1969 Shelby GT-500 [email protected] 428 CJ 335 four-speed 3.91 SS 9/69

45 1970 Olds 4-4-2 W-30 [email protected] 455 W-30 370 automatic 3.42 CC 11/69

46 1962 Corvette [email protected] 327 FI 360 four-speed 4.10 HR 1/62

47 1969 Barracuda [email protected] 440 4V 375 automatic 4.10 SS 8/69

48 1969 Mustang Mach I [email protected] 428 CJ 335 automatic 3.50 CL 3/69

49 1967 GTO [email protected] 400 RA 360 automatic 4.33 CL 10/67

50 1970 Trans Am 13.90@102 400 RA 345 four-speed 3.91 HR 2/70

Legend: CC=Car Craft, CD=Car and Driver, CL=Car Life, HC=Hi Performance Cars, HR=Hot Rod, MCR=You have to ask?, MM=Mopar Muscle, MT=Motor Trend, SS=Super Stock

 

[kansas transit]

Hey Mike, Don't take this the wrong way, but I thought we were talkin 0-60 times not 1/4 mile. Also I find those lists very subjective. In my mind there are a lot of cars on that list that I wouldn't consider musclecars. To me a musclecar was an affordable midsize with a large motor, 5 outa the first 10 cars that are on that list don't fall into that cat. Also if the author of that list is going to include cars like 66,427 cobra. zl1 camaros. zr1 corvettes, then that list is lacking. what about the yenkos, the grand spaulding dodges, the baldwin motors cars the swiss cheese pontiacs, and one of my all time favs. the 68 hemi dart. those cars would change the top of that list considerably. The zr1 corvette was a limited prod. car, the zl1 camaro was a copo car and you pretty much had to have conections to order one, the 66 427 cobra, just how many of them do you think there were sittin around on dealers lots?