Another ticker. Oh goody gumdrops!!

SPORT said:

Hello back at ya Yes, I do see you quoting me. Apparently DE OPPRESSO LIBER quoted me but removed one of the quote tags somewhere making it look like it was his. Take a closer look, he responds at the bottom of his post.

I agree with Berg, this is not about oil. but based on his description of the 'ticking', I do not believe it is an actual ticker. I believe it has more to do with oil viscosity and temperatures than it does with premature ticking. My reasoning is that it is loudest only at a certain RPM range, namely 2500-3500 RPM. This is not an indication of the infamous ticking.

Skooter,

sorry if I've made any offense towards you...not my intentions

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D'oh! My bad. I guess I'm Bueller. And you never offended me. You woulda known if you did that.

Yes, I attributed your words to DOL and saw that he had an 06 FJR.

Still, let's keep oil out of this discussion - for whatever reason.

I also am not so sure berg's FJR is a ticker. As Iggy has pointed out, many folks have thought their FJR was ticker when it in fact was not. Fact is, many FJRs are just noisy without any valve guide issues regardless of oil. My FJR is one of them. Several times it has been declared a ticker by others when it's been singing quite the racket. But now at 146,000 miles, it still runs strong with no oil consumption. Maybe it will develop into a ticker around 200k. :lol:

SkooterG said:

Bueller?!?!
It's a good thing it's not Friday.

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A big ol' FUZZY BALLS and a Gunny too!!!!!

:jester:

bergs said:

The fact that it developed over the course of additional mileage was my first clue....or maybe not. You have me second-guessing myself now...
Cam chain is definitely out of the question only because the noise in question is on the left side of the engine only.

It's not valve clearance because that's a constant noise through out the rpm range.

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Your willingness to share details indicates a sincere interest to diagnose the issue an not a diagnosis you've already locked onto and now want to make things fit.......which why I didn't share this detail.

The best comparison I've ever heard because the audio often doesn't capture it is:

Does it sound like a handful of steak knives being dropped on a metal table? Does it have a sort of metallic quality that maybe sounds a bit like a sewing machine with metal parts touching each other?

If it sounds like this then it is way more likely "a ticker" than the fairly normal staccato tick, tick, tick of Genesis-derived heads.

Then the trick is to get the dealer to drop the headers and look for oil in the exhausts....particularly in the #1 and #2 cylinder area.

SkooterG- The reason I care not to talk about oil is because just the simple mention of the word throws any given topic way off kilter. People disagree (also known as "argue") and, if left unattended, disagreements turn into other topics which eventually renders the original topic useless.

Ignacio said:

Your willingness to share details indicates a sincere interest to diagnose the issue an not a diagnosis you've already locked onto and now want to make things fit.......

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As I'm sure you know, I'm certainly not hell-bent on the possiblity that this is a ticker but I'm also not totally ruling it out just yet.

I am certain of what the noise is NOT, that being the cam chain, the injectors and valve clearances.

Does the fact that the noise I have coming from the left side of the engine fall inline with the ticking issue?

I ask because I'm wondering if the issue was realted to any certain cylinder or was it pretty much a crapshoot where the issue arose in the head?

When I get home, I will review the noise once again to see if it's more inline with the "metallic quality that maybe sounds a bit like a sewing machine with metal parts touching each other".

To me, right now, the answer in my mind says "yes". I will double check and listen more closely.

I want to thank you guys (and gals??) for posting up comments, suggestions and questions. It's a tremendous help to have a group helping out that doesn't have alterior motives like profit-margin to base your answers from.

I'll post my findings tomorrow.

Thanks again!

bergs said:

SkooterG- The reason I care not to talk about oil is because just the simple mention of the word throws any given topic way off kilter. People disagree (also known as "argue") and, if left unattended, disagreements turn into other topics which eventually renders the original topic useless.

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Agreed. That's why I am trying to steer folks away from bringing oil into this discussion.

Begs,

Has your exhaust got oil in it? Might be premature, but many tickers have oil residue, as the oil will get through as a result of the excessive valve guid wear.

Also, there is a ticking sound byte here.

I think it's still up, i can't check from work, site blocked.

clicky

I thought mine was a ticker at first too, it did get a very rhythmic ticking sound, but it wasn't that metallic sound that I hear in the sound byte. I'm fairly certain mine isns't a ticker now. (Hope I'm right!)

having had a 2005 ticker that was fixed I am still skeptical yours is a ticker with that low mileage.

Reason is this - the tick (actually a clack like two spoons rapping together) happens when the exhaust valve guide, usually in cyl 1 or 2, gets eroded or worn due to lack of oil because the valve guide oil seal is too tight and therefore the stem/guide is not lubricated enough.

Because the exhaust valve runs hotter, is it more susceptable to this premature wear.

So, the valve stem wears on/in the guide and the stem becomes loose in the guide and develops a clacking sound.

This wear takes many miles to occur and while possible, its unlikely it would happen by 7500 miles.

The normal stem-to-guide clearance is I believe .001 of an inch and when mine was diagnosed it was between .007-.008 inch. I held the worn guide and valve in my hands and could make it clack and feel/see the looseness it had developed.

On mine the clack was most prominent between 2500-3500 rpms while in 2nd or 3rd gear and under a light load or decelerating. Between the time of diagnosis (14,500 miles) and fix (18,500 miles) it got a lot worse and you could hear it almost all the time.

Mine was noticebly down on power too, particularly when in 5th gear. The engine just didn't have "snap" and didn't feel "crisp" when I rolled on the throttle. Mine never used any noticeable amount of oil either.

It would not pull the front wheel off the ground in 1st or 2nd gear like it does now after it was repaired.

Since my repair I have listened to at least a dozen '04 and '05s that people were afraid had "the tick" and none of them sounded like mine did.

Good luck with yours. If it has to be repaired it is only a minor inconvenience and it will run a lot better after.

BTW - mine now has 55,700 miles and runs STRONG.

Quote: having had a 2005 ticker that was fixed I am still skeptical yours is a ticker with that low mileage....This wear takes many miles to occur and while possible, its unlikely it would happen by 7500 miles. " FJRMGM------ Not so. There have been many `03-`05s in N.A. that were getting noisy before 10,000 miles were up. In my case (`04) , at 9,000 kms I distinctly heard a very pronounced (for the first time) tick-tick-tick while pulling into a "Subway" parking lot in the summer of `04. I did not have my earplugs in as I had just made a short jaunt from another location a few blocks away. I was choked and then relieved that I did not hear it again for a couple of months. I listened attentively. Things just got worse from about 15,000 kms on ...still intermitent though (just more frequent) untill about 22,000 kms. Then it was a constant clack-clack-clack and there was oil dripping (a few drops only) out of the weep hole on the right hand side muffler upon cold startup. Once the bike was up to normal temp, it would stop dripping. There has been such a range of variability in the occurence of the disease, there can be no definitve conclusions drawn, as the relevent data has not been forthcoming because of stonewalling in higher places. :angry:

The intake valves and guides usually get more oil down past the seal because of the pressure differential across the seal. When a piston is moving down and the intake valves are open a vacuum is created below the valve seals. This vacuum helps to pull oil down past the seals.

The sound you describe (arcing sound like a gas igniter) may be the fuel injectors.

Here is what I would do in your situation: 1) Ride it for the summer. If the intensity of the noise doesn't increase exponentially it isn't valve guide wear. If it does increase you will want to get a peek inside the #1 exhaust header and port for signs of oil leakage. The worn valve guide syndrome is always associated with a worn guide seal resulting in unburned oil in the exhaust. It's actually a chicken and egg situation. Nobody knows which is the root cause. In fact, the leaky seal is the biggest potential problem with continuing to ride a ticker; that you will eventually foul your cat. No biggee IMO. I mean, who likes cats anyway? In that case just get a new cat-less header (or gut the cat) and you'll be even happier.

I'm thinking that if you go back to Hudson with this plan they will agree that this would be the smartest course of action and be willing to stand behind you should it turn out to be a real ticker.

conwest said:

Quote: having had a 2005 ticker that was fixed I am still skeptical yours is a ticker with that low mileage....This wear takes many miles to occur and while possible, its unlikely it would happen by 7500 miles. " FJRMGM------ Not so. There have been many `03-`05s in N.A. that were getting noisy before 10,000 miles were up. In my case (`04) , at 9,000 kms I distinctly heard a very pronounced (for the first time) tick-tick-tick while pulling into a "Subway" parking lot in the summer of `04. I did not have my earplugs in as I had just made a short jaunt from another location a few blocks away. I was choked and then relieved that I did not hear it again for a couple of months. I listened attentively. Things just got worse from about 15,000 kms on ...still intermitent though (just more frequent) untill about 22,000 kms. Then it was a constant clack-clack-clack and there was oil dripping (a few drops only) out of the weep hole on the right hand side muffler upon cold startup. Once the bike was up to normal temp, it would stop dripping. There has been such a range of variability in the occurence of the disease, there can be no definitve conclusions drawn, as the relevent data has not been forthcoming because of stonewalling in higher places. :angry:

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that's why I said "while possible its unlikely it would happen by 7500 miles".. YMMV.

Find a long metal rod, very long screwdriver or even a length of COPPER pipe (must be metal), you will be able to slip it through the faring gills, then with the engine running, place it on the exhaust header as close to the engine block as possible. Now, put your ear on the rod/pipe and listen. What you hear will be amazing; you can hear the cams, valves and gears all turning, whirring and churning. If you have a ticker you will unequivocally hear it clattering when you do this. Compare cyl # 1 with cyl #4 and see if they sound the close to the same. You will probably find that you do not have a ticker.

You can use your new found "mechanic's stethoscope" to listen to various areas of your engine to locate the source of your tick. DON'T listen to sparkplug area like this, if a plug cap is loose and causing the tick noise you may get the shock of your life!!! Do start with the Air Injection (AI) solenoid and the cylinder head near the exhaust ports where the AI reed valves are located.

FWIW.

ionbeam said:

Find a long metal rod, very long screwdriver or even a length of COPPER pipe (must be metal), you will be able to slip it through the faring gills, then with the engine running, place it on the exhaust header as close to the engine block as possible. Now, put your ear on the rod/pipe and listen. What you hear will be amazing; you can hear the cams, valves and gears all turning, whirring and churning. If you have a ticker you will unequivocally hear it clattering when you do this. Compare cyl # 1 with cyl #4 and see if they sound the close to the same. You will probably find that you do not have a ticker.

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While this is a most excellent method of trying to diagnose 'the tick', you need to be careful with the conclusions drawn from any sounds heard.

Using the above method, my FJR was diagnosed at 16,000 miles as a 'ticker'. However, now at 146,000 miles it is one noisy S.O.B., but NOT a ticker.

[ A prophet once said, If you believe you have a ticker then you will have a ticker.]

Nightshift said:

[ A prophet once said, If you believe you have a ticker then you will have a ticker.]

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...unless you have a 2nd gen. In which case, it doesn't matter a skinny rat's ass what you believe. You will not have a ticker.

FJRMGM said:

On mine the clack was most prominent between 2500-3500 rpms while in 2nd or 3rd gear and under a light load or decelerating.

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That right there is interesting because I have the exact same symptoms.....although, in my case, the gear selection doesn't make a noticeable difference.

Another thing I noticed was it's not pronounced when the engine is cold. I fired it up today and swept the revs up to 3500 and back down to 2000 a few times and noticed nothing. After hopping on and riding for a short bit, guess what I heard in that rev range?

Fred W- I'm heading over the HCC tomorrow so they can have a listen.

bergs said:

FJRMGM said:

On mine the clack was most prominent between 2500-3500 rpms while in 2nd or 3rd gear and under a light load or decelerating.

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That right there is interesting because I have the exact same symptoms.....although, in my case, the gear selection doesn't make a noticeable difference.

Another thing I noticed was it's not pronounced when the engine is cold. I fired it up today and swept the revs up to 3500 and back down to 2000 a few times and noticed nothing. After hopping on and riding for a short bit, guess what I heard in that rev range?

Fred W- I'm heading over the HCC tomorrow so they can have a listen.

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What time?

Fred W said:

What time?

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No particular time really...I'm thinking 10-ish.

Why? You headin' down?

bergs said:

Fred W said:

What time?

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No particular time really...I'm thinking 10-ish.

Why? You headin' down?

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I was thinking on it. I've never heard a ticker in live and in person (if yours does turn out to be one).

But I'm not sure I can make it now. That damn work thing...

Bergs, if you are going to stop by HCC ~10:00 I will swing down.

On the one hand, being my own boss makes it is easy to give myself time off, on the other hand, when stuff needs to get done I've gotta be here.