Clearwaters or electrical system – is flashing your Kristas a crime?

After years of lurking and learning, I come hat in hand seeking advice.

Current (Ha!) Symptoms: Clearwater Kristas will sometimes flash (go from dim to bright, not off to on, 1-4 times) if I activate the turn or brake lights, or occasionally the Kristas will flash while riding, but not apparently tied to a bump or turn signal/brake light activation.

Background: Kristas bought Nov 2011, flashing symptoms occurred October 2012 (although not apparently tied to turn or brake light activation). I checked every connection I could, had good interaction w/ Glenn at Clearwater, ended up taking the lights off the bike and in for a bench check – no symptoms there, but they replaced the green connectors and gave me a new volume pot. Problem resolved through the winter of 12-13. I didn’t use them last spring/summer as my riding is in daylight in light traffic.

As the days shortened I began using them again and the flashing is back. A couple of weekends ago I visually and physically checked all Krista connections = no change. I can not create the flashing by bouncing the bike on its suspension on the center stand.

Other “facts”:

2003 with 107,000 mi

Bike starts and runs just fine

Kristas and XM are only farkles

WestCo battery installed Feb 2010 at 62,000 mi (e.g. 2.6 years old, nearly daily use)

I am one of many that believe electricity is magic. After searching the forum and web, I cobbled together the various threads of advice on testing charging systems because of the apparent relationship between the brake or turn lights and the Kristas. Somewhere in my age-addled brain is the notion that LED lights will flash w/ a reduction in voltage.

If it wasn’t for the Kristas (except bike headlights dim very slightly at braking) I wouldn’t suspect any trouble with the bike’s charging system.

so here’s what I found this morning:

bike parked after 25 mi commute home last night

VDC (HF DMM) at battery = 13.09 (have seen guidance that >12.6 is good)

VDC at battery w/ ignition on = 12.36 (have seen guidance that >11.2 is good)

VDC at battery during first start of day = a very short drop to 9.9 VDC (have seen guidance that this indicates a bad battery) (repeat tests later never dropped below 10.0)

Kristas OFF: at battery at idle VDC = 14.33; at 5k rpm = 14.36 – this lack of change seems odd but have seen guidance that anything > 13.2 is good at idle and anything between 13.7 and 14.5 at 5k is good, this seems to indicate all is good

Kristas ON (med bright): at battery at idle VDC = 14.31; at 5k rpm = 14.35

Krista OFF: at battery at idle w/ turn signal on VDC = varies between 14.28 and 14.31

Krista ON (medium bright): at battery at idle w/ turn signal on and Kristas “FLASHING”VDC = varies between 14.16 and 14.31

Krista ON (bright w/ High beams): at battery at idle w/ turn signal on and Kristas NOT “flashing” VDC = varies between 13.75 and 13.85

So at least by measuring voltage at the battery under varying loads I can’t seem to find any data that indicates my charging system is the problem – is there any reason anyone can see in the above that indicates testing the stator is warranted?

Seems like every test BUT perhaps the 5k rpm test suggests the R/R is OK? Although this was my first suspect going in, I also wondered about the battery

Interesting, after writing all this, I just went out and repeated most of the tests but could never get the Kristas to flash, which proves electricity is not only magic but slightly vindictive.

any guidance would be appreciated!

I'll send this off to Glenn at Clearwater and see if I can get cha an answer. From what I understand about the Kristas, they don't flash to bright by themselves, but when the wire that is normally hooked to the horn picks up 12v. from pushing the horn, this causes them to flash to bright if I recall. You and I have a Gen 1, and Glenn told me that this wire cannot be hooked to the FJR horn because of the way the horn is wired. Our horns are a little weird. They're not an off/on switch like most horns. The horn button grounds the wire coming from the horn and completes the circuit. So that horn wire is always hot, but grounds through the switch to the handlebars. So normally on a Gen 1 (I'm not sure how a Gen 2 or 3 is wired), this wire in the Krista harness is unused. Your bike cannot be wired to flash the lights when ya push the horn. The only other wire that causes the lights to go to full bright is hooked to the bright light circuit. This enables the Kristas to go to full bright when ya turn on your FJR brights. It will not cause them to flash as far as I know. I'm not sure where you heard that your charging system or the condition of your battery would cause your Kristas to flash, but Glenn @ Clearwater would be the only guy on the planet that could sort that out for ya, that I know of.

Gary
darksider #44

thanks - note the second paragraph where he was very helpful when I went through this last year (almost exactly 1 year ago today!) and just wanted to be as sure as possible that the bike system was not the problem before I bugged him again

Sounds like you have ruled out your FJR's electrical system, including the R/R. LEDs don't flash with low voltage, they dim. I don't know how Krista has setup their power controller (volume knob), there is an outside chance that low voltage would make it flash -- but you have ruled out low voltage on your electrical system.

Are your Kristas powered directly off the battery or do you use an ignition switched relay?

Where you need to be checking now is at the connectors. It is suspicious that you messed with the install last time and it worked for quite a while after even though no problem was found. Connectors have a power side (usually female pins so it doesn't short if it hits the frame) and a load side such as the power controller or the LEDs. You need to back-probe the load side of the connector, this will find wiring problems and connector problems.

FWIW, local NERDS BigOgre has had LED wires break inside the insulation in the middle of a wire run causing his lights to be intermittent. He can wiggle wires at the lights and at the connectors and the lights stay on. As he moves along the wire run the lights will suddenly blink. It was fixed but now both lights have become intermittent again, independently.

This kind of problem is really hard to troubleshoot via internet 'cause someplace between what the OP did, how it was reported and what it ends up being is something that wasn't on the radar due to some minor little thing that wasn't done or said. There is no substitute to seeing the situation in person.

Shooting in the dark here, (ha!), but have you double-checked the battery terminal connections?

ah, I was really hoping for an Ionbeam reply - thanks!

Install is per the manual = both + and - direct to battery

Agree it is curious that the replacement of the connectors by Clearwater last year (+ the new power knob/dimmer) solved the problem for awhile; just really didn't want to bug them after Glenn was so helpful last year if my bike is causing the issue, so thanks for helping me rule that out

I will look to see if can back probe (both ends of the connectors are "female" and the holes are quite small - unfamiliar to me)

my visual/physical inspection a couple of weeks ago included grabbing/wiggling the green connectors, the posi-taps, and as much wire as I could, hoping to create the flash, but w/o success - got several flashes this morning during the first set of voltage tests but none during the second set awhile later.

Is it some sick rule that most electrical problems are intermittent??

silver spirit said:

Shooting in the dark here, (ha!), but have you double-checked the battery terminal connections?

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thanks - yep, first thing a couple of weeks ago. Being simple and simple-minded, and usually at fault for most problems (ask my wife), my usual first step is to check my own work

I bet you can solve this tomorrow by doing the following..... Buy a new battery and get it installed. PROBLEM SOLVED! 99% Confidence.

I kid you not, I have had this happen to my 03' twice with the Kristas. Back and forth with Glen, multiple times for bench testing, both times checked out fine. He replaced my connectors also.

The first time I even replaced a stator and R/R that were actually failing. When I went out for a ride, still no love with the Kristas. Flashing like yours with turn signal & brake activation and such.

I had been through the electrical system throughly and even the battery passed a load test. In fact in both cases the batteries passed a load test, but once replaced, all was good.

Both were WestCo Batteries and since I had (2) WestCo issues, I went back to a Yuasa and so far so good after 1+ year.

I surmise an intermittent connection within the battery to one or more cells. I also noted it typically occured after the engine had warmed and on the move. Perhaps vibration was part of the intermittency of the connection within the battery.

garyahouse said:

I'll send this off to Glenn at Clearwater and see if I can get cha an answer. From what I understand about the Kristas, they don't flash to bright by themselves, but when the wire that is normally hooked to the horn picks up 12v. from pushing the horn, this causes them to flash to bright if I recall. You and I have a Gen 1, and Glenn told me that this wire cannot be hooked to the FJR horn because of the way the horn is wired. Our horns are a little weird. They're not an off/on switch like most horns. The horn button grounds the wire coming from the horn and completes the circuit. So that horn wire is always hot, but grounds through the switch to the handlebars. So normally on a Gen 1 (I'm not sure how a Gen 2 or 3 is wired), this wire in the Krista harness is unused. Your bike cannot be wired to flash the lights when ya push the horn. The only other wire that causes the lights to go to full bright is hooked to the bright light circuit. This enables the Kristas to go to full bright when ya turn on your FJR brights. It will not cause them to flash as far as I know. I'm not sure where you heard that your charging system or the condition of your battery would cause your Kristas to flash, but Glenn @ Clearwater would be the only guy on the planet that could sort that out for ya, that I know of.
Gary

darksider #44

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I use the horn relay to flash to bright on my 2005 (as many do) but I have a relay the uses the horn wires to trip.a trigger signal. The horn wires are powered all the time, and complete the circuit to ground through the horn button. Nothing too weird about that. The OP is in Woodland, CA and can get to Glenn's in person in about 30 minutes.

glas1/2ful said:

Current (Ha!) Symptoms: Clearwater Kristas will sometimes flash (go from dim to bright, not off to on, 1-4 times) if I activate the turn or brake lights, or occasionally the Kristas will flash while riding, but not apparently tied to a bump or turn signal/brake light activation.

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Krista's go from dim to bright when the high-beam is activated and/or the horn button. Have you examined those taps?

first thanks all for any and all suggestions!!

Tanker - Thanks a ton - it was one of my hopes that I wasn't alone in the universe w/ this issue. Appreciate another data point. I am way tempted to just replace the battery, and while it won't be tomorrow it may be my next step and I'll report back

Gary and Tom - now that's just weird - the first time I saw Gary's reply it was only a one-liner; but I agree - the Gen 1 can't work the horn circuit w/o another relay (I probably had the same conversation w/ Glenn), and I have only one white wire hooked to the hi beams,

I didn't hear that the charging system could cause the Krista to flash, it was merely a hypothesis of mine - but the idea was:

weak charging system, turn or brake light activation draws juice = reduced voltage to LED = flash. Hypothesis based on incorrect assumption that low voltage causes LED to flash, since refuted by Ionbeam - I tell ya, electricity is magic!!

Puppychow - as above I don't have the horn set up, and i have tried to check all posi-taps as well as green connectors and the ring connectors at the battery - there is just nothing that a noob can detect. I was thinking about replacing them all but I can't get any symptoms by pretty aggressively wiggling all connectors.

this is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for - thanks!!

Are your high beams also intermittently flashing along with the Krista's? Checked the switch housing?

The other white wire (supposed to be connected to the horns - not intermittently shorting to a power source)?

Simple questions, but had to ask..

nothing too simple for me to overlook - so thanks!

At least in the garage, it's only the Kristas that are flashing, and I did take the left switch housing off a couple of weeks ago to again look for "obvious" faults - nothing apparent to me

While I haven't checked it this time (yet), I went so far last year that I put some shrink tube on the remaining white wire thinking somehow someway it was touching something of power or grounding to complete a circuit (seemed awful unlikely as it is curled up and zip-tied with the extra wire lengths in that little tray-like space along the left side, but then as now I was kind of desperate!!)

just ordered a Yuasa battery...

It is very rare for a stock stator to go bad, are you using an Electrosport stator? If you are, don't do that. Electrosport stators have a typical life of <40k miles.

I can't see how a battery can cause your problem as root cause unless there is something 'different' about the Krista power controller that causes it to drop out at low voltage which would be <12.5 volts.

ionbeam said:

It is very rare for a stock stator to go bad, are you using an Electrosport stator? If you are, don't do that. Electrosport stators have a typical life of <40k miles.
I can't see how a battery can cause your problem as root cause unless there is something 'different' about the Krista power controller that causes it to drop out at low voltage which would be <12.5 volts.

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I don't know if you're referring this question to me Alan, but you and Fred were key in stepping me through my stator and R/R issues awhile back and I sure appreciated all the help with that.

OEM stators for me thankyou. Reading all the Electrosport concerns kept me clear of that route.

Another interesting note on mine concerned the LED Battery monitor on the 03'. I don't have a Datel on the FJR, but it still alerted me to a situation within the electrical system.

The monitor would start flashing at idle between green and red after the bike had fully warmed. Hooking up a DVM while this was occurring showed the voltage changes in a dramatic fashion which led me to look at the stator and R/R.

The stator tested out as bad and I decided to replace the R/R at the same time. Once the bike was back together. Fired up the bike and the battery monitor with engine cold was as usual, solid green.

I went out for a ride and the monitor started flashing again at idle. I figured the LED monitor was bad, but it was not as the Kristas started flashing again and I knew the electrical system was now in good shape.

I decided at that point that even though the battery had load tested fine, I would replace it anyway. All was good after that battery change until about 9 months later, it all started again. I tore eveything apart and went through the same gyrations.

The stator - R/R and all connections tested good along with Clearwaters findings. I had the 2nd WestCo load tested and it came out fine.

I decided then and there to purchase a Yuasa and everything has worked great for a second season.

Thanks some more! Stator is stock as far as I know - bought the bike w/ 9k mi on it and other than this recurring Krista problem, no other issues in the nearly 100k mi I have put on it

It's a bit curious that Tanker experienced the same problems with a 2003 and Kristas, and also had connectors replaced w/ only a temporary fix. Concluding that the battery replacement truly solved the flashing might be premature, since at least for me, the connector switch "seemed" to fix it too.

While I don't usually find "fixing by random replacement of parts" to be an efficient approach, am facing the time zone switch and my ride home in the dark beginning in a week - the reason for the Kristas - and the battery is closing in on 3 years old so a year or so earlier purchase to have a CHANCE of solving this seemed worth it. Dunno.

glas1/2ful said:

Thanks some more! Stator is stock as far as I know - bought the bike w/ 9k mi on it and other than this recurring Krista problem, no other issues in the nearly 100k mi I have put on it
It's a bit curious that Tanker experienced the same problems with a 2003 and Kristas, and also had connectors replaced w/ only a temporary fix. Concluding that the battery replacement truly solved the flashing might be premature, since at least for me, the connector switch "seemed" to fix it too.

While I don't usually find "fixing by random replacement of parts" to be an efficient approach, am facing the time zone switch and my ride home in the dark beginning in a week - the reason for the Kristas - and the battery is closing in on 3 years old so a year or so earlier purchase to have a CHANCE of solving this seemed worth it. Dunno.

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I don't find randomly replacing parts as an efficient approach either, but I was getting down to my last turn without anywhere else to go really. Damn WestCo!!

Tanker said:

I don't find randoming replacing parts as an efficient approach either, but I was getting down to my last turn without anywhere else to go really. Damn WestCo!!

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eggs-actly where i am too - ordered a Yuasa last night, hopefully here by next weekend

Just got back in from re-running all the measurements I made yesterday - all still the same give or take a .01 or .02 or so. And the electricity demons decided not to cause a single flash.

what (else) is still puzzling to me is the wider range of voltage fluctuations at the battery when I turn everything on (Hi beams, Krista on high, turn signal, brake and even XM) - only at idle but the volts at battery were rapidly fluctuating from 13.07 to 13.22, and as I let that run for awhile, the minimums, which started out around 13.11 or so, slowing dropped to the 13.07 when I gave up. With everything off, volts at battery at idle were back to a stable 14.30-14.31 by the time I got the probes back on the battery.

sincerely appreciate all the input!

whelp, n=1 but first night commute home in the dark after the new Yuasa battery, no flashing