LED replace met for H4 bulbs?

Copied this from another forum.

Has anyone seen these LED CREE H4 replacement kits?

https://www.electricalconnection.com/other-lighting/led-hl-h4.htm

Supposedly there's a write-up in the latest Motorcyclist (Feb '14, p 60). They claim 1800 Lumens vs 1050 for a regular Halogen.

I didn't see any specification for hi/lo beam, just one lumen output.

Is there room for the fan and spacer?

From what I've seen the LED replacement bulbs do not work very well in reflectors designed for normal bulbs. Just check out some of the videos on Youtube, like this one:



You'll see that they are very bright to look at but do not throw the light far at all.

Ya got me wondering, Justin. It seems to me that lumen output is lumen output, and that there's no such thing as "do not throw the light far," as you put it. Correct me if I'm wrong? Seems like how far a light throws is primarily a function of lumen output, not the type of light source.

Gary

darksider #44

No...I have a really bright Cree LED flashlight. It claims 3800 lumens, but I doubt it. The focus of that light does not come to a beam, so it throws a great flood type light.

I have a smaller 1500 lumen light that isn't as bright, bit with better focus, I can see things farther away.

Focus and beam pattern have a lot to do with how far a light will reach.

garyahouse said:

Ya got me wondering, Justin. It seems to me that lumen output is lumen output, and that there's no such thing as "do not throw the light far," as you put it. Correct me if I'm wrong? Seems like how far a light throws is primarily a function of lumen output, not the type of light source.

Click to expand...

Yes and no. Take an H4 incandescent bulb and plug it in outside the housing, then put it in the housing and see which throws farther. The light in the reflective housing will throw farther, because the mirrored reflector is capturing all the output and focusing it in one direction. LED's are extremely directional, so the tight beam from the chip will only be hitting a small part of the reflector and not getting the full benefit of the mirrored reflector.

To add to that - an LED reflector works different than a incandescent or HID reflector. LEDs throw light in a single direction, at a fairly tight angle. The lens on an LED light is designed to capture the side light and refocus it forward. So, it's more accurate to a say "a lumen forward is a lumen forward". Just like an incandescent, an LED behind a well designed reflector will throw light further than an LED without a reflector. Which is why HRZ's lower lumen flashlight throws farther than the higher rated light. Reflector design is everything.

To answer the op: no. Forget that

To further what our resident LED guy Justin said: an LED being already a directional light source does not gain the amplification factor that an omnidirectional source like a halogen or HID arc source does.

LEDs are efficient light sources, and can/will be used in the future for headlamps, but they require completely different application and can not effectively be used as a "replacement" for an omnidirectional light source.

Glancing at the bulb it's self makes me think there is one big chip on either side of the bulb. If thats the case there should be the high/low beams. Top for low both for high. Although I'd have to see more pictures from different angles. Another note, they "claim" its positioned the same place an H4 would normally be at. I share the opinion that LED lights are bright but don't cast very much light. With the narrow beam characteristics of LEDs, would it give a case of good lighting straight ahead but lacking brightness the edges of the beam?

Fred W said:

To answer the op: no. Forget thatTo further what our resident LED guy Justin said: an LED being already a directional light source does not gain the amplification factor that an omnidirectional source like a halogen or HID arc source does.

LEDs are efficient light sources, and can/will be used in the future for headlamps, but they require completely different application and can not effectively be used as a "replacement" for an omnidirectional light source.

Click to expand...

Dont worry a out me, I'm personally against LED lighting altogether. I've never met one worth liking. But, I put it up here for your interest, and because I knew there was a much better chance for quick, excellent responces compared to the other forum.

sath182 said:

Fred W said:

To answer the op: no. Forget thatTo further what our resident LED guy Justin said: an LED being already a directional light source does not gain the amplification factor that an omnidirectional source like a halogen or HID arc source does.

LEDs are efficient light sources, and can/will be used in the future for headlamps, but they require completely different application and can not effectively be used as a "replacement" for an omnidirectional light source.

Click to expand...

Dont worry a out me, I'm personally against LED lighting altogether. I've never met one worth liking. But, I put it up here for your interest, and because I knew there was a much better chance for quick, excellent responces compared to the other forum.

Click to expand...

Then you obviously have very little experience with LEDs and none with quality LEDs. LED light is much better than halogen light. Ghey are brighter, have better color and use a lot less energy. However, a LED cannot simply replace a halogen bulb. The reflectors are different, so what is good for one will not work for another.

LEDs have come a long way and will eventually replace halogen technology. Especially in vehicle applications where the ability to see at night is important.

This comes down to the same thing as LED replacements for the tail lights and brake lights. They're brighter, but only exactly on axis. As little as ten degrees off and they dim to nearly nothing.

Is everything you need to see while riding exactly on axis? Don't think so.

LED light systems are systems, not replacement bulbs.

Justin is bang on the money.

I work in the entertainment industry with lighting and it's the source (bulb) reflector combination that controls the light direction.

Yes, 2000 lumens is more than 1000 but if it's not properly aimed, what is the advantage?

LED technology has crept into the professional lighting market and the results are very good, however, the fixtures are designed with the LED source in mind.

I just don't see how the replacement LED source would work in a headlight designed for a filament source.

If you have ever seen those HID "kits" on a vehicle you will notice that , in most case, the light is brighter but not aimed all that well.

This is a result of the light source not properly aligned in the reflector.

Same problem with LED.

The LED tail light replacements I have seen are dreadful as well.

If it doesn't really improve , I mean REALLY improve the lighting, what bother ?

I have a set of these available to me to try any time. A friend of mine owns a lighting company and has imported some of the HI/LO H4 LED set ups. I havent taken the time to try out the set up yet. But, I doubt it will "out shine" a HI/LO HID H4 conversion kit. I had also wonder how the little fans that are used to cool the LED housings will hold up in wet conditions. The fans will be exposed to the elements.

redneckj said:

I have a set of these available to me to try any time...I doubt it will "out shine" a HI/LO HID H4 conversion kit. I had also wonder how the little fans that are used to cool the LED housings will hold up in wet conditions. The fans will be exposed to the elements.

Click to expand...

Comparing one loser with the other loser, the HIDs. Neither one will shine when installed in a stock Halogen reflector. They both have the capability to be great lights and significantly more efficient than a Halogen, but they *must* be in a reflector that is designed for that individual type of light.

As far as the little fans exposed to the elements (yet significantly shielded by the fairing), how is that different from the bigger electrical fans behind the radiator that are shielded by almost nothing? Any sealed fan should do just fine. The only difference between the little fans and the radiator fan is how long they will run then the engine is on.

The LEDs with their heat sinks and fans will take up a lot of space in a small area and produce lots of heat near wires, connectors and rubber shields.

Guy over on the FZ1 Forum installed them -- Post #11 has photos

https://www.yamahafz1oa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=130254

redneckj said:

I have a set of these available to me to try any time. A friend of mine owns a lighting company and has imported some of the HI/LO H4 LED set ups. I havent taken the time to try out the set up yet. But, I doubt it will "out shine" a HI/LO HID H4 conversion kit.

Click to expand...

I doubt they will outshine the H4 halogens.

Yes, LEDs are efficient light producers. That just means they put out more lumens per watt of power input. But how many watts are going into these retrofit LED units? How many lumens and at what beam pattern. I'm interested but dubious.

ionbeam said:

Comparing one looser with the other looser, the HIDs. Neither one will shine when installed in a stock Halogen reflector. They both have the capability to be great lights and significantly more efficient than a Halogen, but they *must* be in a reflector that is designed for that individual type of light.

Click to expand...

I'll have to disagree about the HIDs being losers, this from my own, first hand experiences on the FJR.

The HID lamps are an omnidirectional light source just like the halogen filament bulbs. The telescopic retrofit units that most people use produce exactly what you would expect, a brighter, whiter light with the same exact beam patterns as the halogen lamps do. They only need to be used in a specialized headlamp bucket by law, and that is because of the concern of the much greater light source having adequate low beam cutoff. On the FJR the low beam cutoff is quite good, much better than many other DOT headlamp buckets that have a not well defined cutoff.

The high beam pattern inadequacy seen in the FJR headlamps with HID retrofit is also present with the standard H4 bulbs installed, and that is only lack of foreground coverage. The lack of foreground light is more apparent with the HIDs only because the light intensity is so much brighter in the broadcasted beam, but the pattern is the same. Either way, an aux light that is tied to the high beams and fills the foreground is the answer.

The low beam performance with the HID retrofit in an FJR is far superior to the halogen bulbs. For those people that ride at night in urban areas and have to depend on their low beams it is a worthwhile upgrade. The only downside of the HIDs is that the capsules generate more heat inside the headlamp bucket and over time will erode the reflective plastic surface above each capsule. That surface is what casts the bottom half of the reflected beam, so it is counterproductive to the low beam performance over time. That is the main reason that I have opted not to re-install my HIDs in my (3rd!!) headlamp bucket when it was replaced last year for an entirely different reason.

Wlfman said:

Guy over on the FZ1 Forum installed them -- Post #11 has photos
https://www.yamahafz1oa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=130254

Click to expand...

Not a member there so we can't see the pictures. Any chance you could re-post them here?

Fred W said:

ionbeam said:

Comparing one looser with the other looser, the HIDs...they *must* be in a reflector that is designed for that individual type of light.

Click to expand...

I'll have to disagree about the HIDs being losers, this from my own, first hand experiences on the FJR...it is counterproductive to the low beam performance over time. That is the main reason that I have opted not to re-install my HIDs in my (3rd!!) headlamp bucket...

Click to expand...

Ok, HIDs aren't a total looser, but also not a complete replacement either. Get a little, lose a little, or at least gain almost nothing in some areas.