Intermittent problem starting Gen 1

RobertB · Feb 28, 2014

I picked up a 2005 FJR about 6 months ago with 8500 miles. I've had problems, from time to time, starting the bike since I bought it. Bike has less than 15000 miles on it now. I've read the many threads about this common issue, and replaced the battery, cleaned all the connections etc, but still have problems. (Battery has been load tested). This bike's starter just seems slower than the Gen 2 I had. And sometimes won't start at all when the engine is at operating temp, until it sits for a while. It has also been slow to start when sitting out in cold weather. When I say slow, I mean the starter turns slowly, as if the battery is on its last leg.

One thing I've seemed to have discovered, is that the bike seems to start properly if I crack the throttle just slightly before pushing the start button. Is there some connection to the starter system and another component....TPS, ECU or FI??? Or is this just my imagination?

Any help would be appreciated.

ionbeam · Feb 28, 2014

When you say it won't start, do you mean it spins the engine ok but won't fire? Or, does it struggle to spin the engine? Does the clock and trip odometer reset?

[edit: Upon my first read the way the OP focused on the battery I jumped the gun focusing on an electrical problem which is why the following trends that way. After a second reading we need some clarification about what is really happening before starting the troubleshooting.]

You need to sort out some basic things like is your battery only partly charged, is the starting circuit drawing too much current or do you have a problem with wires associated with the charging or starting circuit. You will need a volt meter to make these checks.

Do you know how this very low mileage bike was stored when it wasn't being ridden, 'cause it has to have been sitting a lot to have so few miles? What is the idle speed once fully warmed up? Do you know if the bike has the OEM stator in the charging system or if it has an aftermarket stator? Tell us about any electrical additions, modifications or equipment that isn't OEM or appears 'fiddled with'.

As far as cracking the throttle, there is no other component in the system. However, opening the throttle will make a difference by letting the engine breath easier. When performing a compression test one of the requirements is to have the throttle plates wide open when cranking the engine. Perhaps this is what is occurring when you have the throttle partly open. This is not normal and may be a byproduct of a weak battery, cable or starter problem.

luvtoride · Feb 28, 2014

It almost sounds like the starter... but I'm far from a mechanic nor do I have a low mileage bike like this.

RobertB · Feb 28, 2014

Struggles to spin.

Charging at 14.18 volts.

Standing battery voltage at 12.8 volts

The only addition is a powerlet plug that I installed...but symptoms occurred before installation

PO stored the bike in the garage, on a battery tender and stabilized fuel.

I have installed two new Motocross Yuasa batteries, both were load tested before installation.

Cleaned air filter.

Cleaned battery terminals, connection to starter, starter relay, and ground at engine.

I thought starter also, but with such low mileage I'd be surprised. I have no way to test the amperage the starter is drawing. Anyway to test the starter with a standard multi-meter?

1300-1400 idle RPMs

OEM stator, but has carbon fiber cover for protection. I wondered if that might not be causing excess heat, but charging circuit seems ok.

ionbeam · Feb 28, 2014

RobertB said:
Struggles to spin.
Charging at 14.18 volts.

Standing battery voltage at 12.8 volts

....I have installed two new Motocross Yuasa batteries, both were load tested before installation.
...

Cleaned battery terminals, connection to starter, starter relay, and ground at engine.

I thought starter also, but with such low mileage I'd be surprised. I have no way to test the amperage the starter is drawing. Anyway to test the starter with a standard multi-meter?

1300-1400 idle RPMs

OEM stator, but has carbon fiber cover for protection. I wondered if that might not be causing excess heat, but charging circuit seems ok.

You have done good diligence with all the electrical stuff. Just a wild question, can you do a compression test? High starter current can come from high compression caused by carbon buildup or bad mechanical valve timing. If you can do a compression test, while all the plugs are out turn the engine over using a wrench on the crank and see if it spins freely. And if you can't do a compression test, then it has to be something else

You can approximate a starter current test. Trickle charge your battery over night so we are sure it is in good shape.

(1) Put your DMM across the battery terminals, not the wires and attempt to start the engine. The meter should show a cranking voltage in the 9.7 volt range. (If your cranking voltage goes into the 8.0 volt area the meter assembly will reset the clock and trip odometer).

(2) If the engine cranks slow and you read ~9.7 volts we will do a voltage drop test. Set your DMM to a low voltage scale like 2.0 volts. Put the red lead on the positive battery terminal and the black lead on the starter coil terminal, not the wire. Start the engine. A voltage over 0.5 volts is bad. Ideally it should be as close to 0.00 as possible. This is an indication of a terminal or wire failure. It isn't rare for a high current wire to fail where it is crimped onto the terminal or gets accidentally cut through a lot of the strands.

(3) If that passes we will do a voltage drop test on the negative side. Leave your meter setting. Put the DMM's red probe on the battery's negative terminal. Put the DMM black lead on any bolt or nut on the engine case near the starter. Same deal as before, start the engine, a voltage over 0.5 volts is bad.

(1) If your starter draws excess current it will drag the voltage down on the battery. The only way the battery voltage can be pulled down is for the battery to be bad or the starting circuit to draw too much current. The starter can draw too much current if it has had an O-ring leak oil into the starter; the starter has an electrical problem; the engine has excessively high compression; the engine has a mechanical problem causing excess drag.

(2) If the battery voltage remains good but drops too much between the positive battery post to the starter relay then all it can be is a bad terminal connection or a bad wire.

(3) If the battery voltage remains good but drops too much between the negative battery post that the engine block then it is most likely to be the black grounding wire that connects to the engine block on the right front side of the engine, behind cyl #3/4 header tubes or the wire itself.

(4) Open the jaws of a $75 amp probe and put it around the positive battery cable. Plug the probe into your DMM, crank the engine and read the current on the meter.

The meter is reading 33.5 amps being drawn through the voltage regulator wire going to the battery in this charging system test. (It reads negative because I put the clamp on backwards to show the TPI A256 P/N on the probe, if I flip it over the reading will be positive. It really makes no difference, the current value is the same both ways.)

frankenfeejeer · Feb 28, 2014

I had the same problem with the same symptoms.

Followed all the ideas given and finally found relief by replacing the starter.

Good luck.

-Brian

RobertB · Feb 28, 2014

frankenfeejeer said:
I had the same problem with the same symptoms.Followed all the ideas given and finally found relief by replacing the starter.

Good luck.

-Brian

How many miles on the bike when you replaced the starter?

RobertB · Mar 1, 2014

Test number 1 yields 10.62v

Test number 2 yields .57v. Does mean bad wire from batterry, or bad wire in starter?

Test number 3 yields .24v

ionbeam · Mar 1, 2014

RobertB said:
Test number 1 yields 10.62vTest number 2 yields .57v. Does mean bad wire from batterry, or bad wire in starter?

Test number 3 yields .24v

When you performed the tests, did the starter turn the engine slowly? This is a key question. Err, no pun intended.

The cranking volts @ 10.6 is quite healthy! The battery is good.

The voltage drop on #2 is high but far from being an issue, it is more likely an indicator of high current being drawn. Usually if the wire is defective the voltage would be way higher than what was measured. I'd say No Problem.

The voltage drop on #3 is good, no issues with chassis ground or engine ground.

If the engine turned at a normal starting rpm all we have done is shown that when all goes well, all is well.

If the engine turned slowly I think we can rule out everything but the starter drawing high current. It is extremely rare (unheard of?) for a starter this young to have a problem. The problem is compounded by the starter being expen$ive and a major PITA to get to. I think it would be wise to look into other problems first.

If the starter drag is intermittent and you get some good starts and some slow cranking (slow engine rpms during cranking) that pretty much rules out high compression and mechanical valve timing.

Another thing that could be an intermittent problem is the clutch dragging. Before starting the next time, try putting the bike in gear, pull in the clutch and push it to see if there is drag. I would suggest putting it on the center stand in gear, then pull in the clutch and turn the rear wheel by hand, but that would require a helper. It is a fact that all FJRs seem to have some clutch sticking on the first start of the day.

frankenfeejeer · Mar 1, 2014

RobertB said:
frankenfeejeer said:

I had the same problem with the same symptoms.

Followed all the ideas given and finally found relief by replacing the starter.

Good luck.

-Brian

Click to expand...

How many miles on the bike when you replaced the starter?

50k

Donal · Mar 2, 2014

frankenfeejeer said:
RobertB said:

frankenfeejeer said:

I had the same problem with the same symptoms.

Followed all the ideas given and finally found relief by replacing the starter.

Good luck.

-Brian

Click to expand...

How many miles on the bike when you replaced the starter?

Click to expand...

50k

Not sure it has much (if anything) to do with miles ridden. Much more a function of the number of starts, particularly cold starts. If the starter motor has been subjected to lots of hard cranking it will have a shorter life.

RobertB · May 31, 2014

Update with 18000 miles now on the bike.

I'm still nursing my FJR with starting problems and finally bought a clamp on ammeter, Clamped the meter around the wire from the starter relay to the starter, and the starter is drawing around 170 amps when the bike is hot and a start is attempted shortly after shutdown,

I'm still able to start the bike relatively easy when its cold or has sat for a few minutes (like at a gas stop) by barely cracking the throttle and pressing the start button simultaneously. What I would like to know.....am I in danger of damaging other parts of the starter circuit (battery, wires, relay)? Or can I wait until the starter about gives out, before I have to replace it. I'm not afraid to have to bump start the bike and am really dreading having to change the starter.

Thanks,

Robert

ionbeam · May 31, 2014

The 170 amps is way too high, but typical of a failing starter. Cracking the throttle makes cranking slightly easier.

The extra current is hardest on the battery, but it also puts a lot of stress on wiring and may make the starter relay contacts more prone to arcing which is permanently damaging.

If it were my bike I would avoid the possible cost of a new battery and hurting the starter relay and replace the starter, but as always, YMMV.

If you have a local starter/alternator winding company they can fix your starter, test it and usually offer a warranty.

RobertB · May 31, 2014

Pulled the starter this afternoon. Wasn't too bad of a job, but getting everything back together will be a task. Now to find a local place in or around Atlanta to work on it. Any Georgia folks out there with recommendations? Might just ship it off to Rick's Motorsports.....

supertankerm60a3 · Jun 2, 2014

You sould be able to dissassemble the starter, clean, lube and put it back into service yourself. It is not hard. If you find any large problems that need parts, then you can take it to a shop. Starters and very simple beasts, just magnets, brushes, bearings and windings. The biggest challenge is pinning the brushes back as you put the armature back into that endcap. the worst thing I have seen happen in an motor of this size is that the permanents magnet had debonded from the motor body and was resting on the armature.

RobertB · Jun 3, 2014

I'd normally agree about doing it myself, if the starter was easy to remove/install. But its not. I want to make sure it's rebuilt right so I don't have to tear things apart again. BTW, I did have the starter apart to see if there were any obvious problems. Other than a discoloration from what Id call overhating, it didn't look bad.

Its on its way to Ricks Motorsports in NH. I'll update when I get the starter back.

ionbeam · Jun 3, 2014

RobertB said:
...Its on its way to Ricks Motorsports in NH. I'll update when I get the starter back.

Ricks is ~2 miles from my house, do you want me to go check on it for you?

I've been in to talk with them, nice people, nice shop and their BLUE eyed beauty of an office girl is really nice. Rick is often out for events like Americade and the Louden NH Motorcycle Week.

Geezer · Jun 3, 2014

ionbeam said:
RobertB said:

...Its on its way to Ricks Motorsports in NH. I'll update when I get the starter back.

Click to expand...

Ricks is ~2 miles from my house, do you want me to go check on it for you?

I've been in to talk with them, nice people, nice shop and their BLUE eyed beauty of an office girl is really nice. Rick is often out for events like Americade and the Louden NH Motorcycle Week.

Well, if you do stop in, make sure you take a picture or two.

ionbeam · Jun 3, 2014

Geezer said:
....Well, if you do stop in, make sure you take a picture or two.

Last time I was there Rick was out at an event and without his OK they didn't want pictures taken. I really wanted to take before/after pictures of a Ninja starter, that starter was the worst looking POS I have ever seen and it looked new when they were done. As much as the visuals in the shop, it's the smells in the shop too

-- fried electrics along with the smell of escaped magic smoke, solvents, lacquer and varnish

Intermittent problem starting Gen 1

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