IIHS Study on Integrated Braking Systems

CA G-Man · Apr 21, 2014

Some of you might have seen this before but I haven't seen it referenced so I thought I'd post it up:

**EDIT: Sorry guys, looks like I botched the link. l let's try this - just Google "Evaluation of motorcycle antilock braking systems" and click on the first thing that comes up. **

There's a lot of technical stuff there but in short, the study looked at actual crash data (as reported in insurance claims) to assess whether integrated braking systems (referred to in the study as "combined control brake system") (what Yamaha calls a "Unified Braking System") are actually better than just regular ABS systems. Interestingly, the 2013 FJR1300A is specifically mentioned in the paper as an example of the CCBS.

The conclusion:

"The combined control brake system (CCBS) along with ABS showed larger reductions in collision claim frequency,
severity, and overall losses than ABS by itself."

In other words, the unified braking system works!

Fred W · Apr 21, 2014

"Facts are stubborn, but statistics are more pliable." -- Mark Twain

CA G-Man · Apr 21, 2014

Fred W said:
"Facts are stubborn, but statistics are more pliable." -- Mark Twain

True enough, Fred. And statistics don't present any problems that a little confirmation bias can't solve!

Fred W · Apr 21, 2014

I've actually never ridden a second or third gen FJR. I know... sounds crazy huh? I guess I'm a bit afraid that if I did I might feel compelled to buy one, and I know for certain that is not in the budget these days. Ignorance is bliss, right?

I did own a VFR800 with linked braking for a number of years (my son now owns the bike) and I always thought the brakes on that bike were quite good even without any ABS. But is was also a totally different form of CBS, though functionally similar, and the bike weighed considerably less, which helps a whole lot.

Old Michael · Apr 21, 2014

Fred W said:
I've actually never ridden a modern, refined FJR.

Jus' sayin'.

Old Guy · Apr 21, 2014

CA G-Man said:
Some of you might have seen this before but I haven't seen it referenced so I thought I'd post it up:
www.iihs.org/media/d9b615d8-7720-4428.../hldi_bulletin_30.10.pdf‎

There's a lot of technical stuff there but in short, the study looked at actual crash data (as reported in insurance claims) to assess whether integrated braking systems (referred to in the study as "combined control brake system") (what Yamaha calls a "Unified Braking System") are actually better than just regular ABS systems. Interestingly, the 2013 FJR1300A is specifically mentioned in the paper as an example of the CCBS.

The conclusion:

"The combined control brake system (CCBS) along with ABS showed larger reductions in collision claim frequency,

severity, and overall losses than ABS by itself."

In other words, the unified braking system works!

I don't doubt that integrated braking reduces accidents simply because of the number of riders out there that stand on the rear brakes in emergencies while ignoring the front. Take away the inexperienced riders, and I doubt there'd be any difference.

So far, the integrated brakes haven't bothered me on the FJR, but I hated them on my Goldwing. When trying to do a slow U-turn on the 'wing, I'd try to drag the rear brake to modulate the speed, and the damned front brake would activate while the bars were turned and make the front end plow. I can do a circle on the FJR with my bars bouncing off the steering stop, but I could barely do a U-turn with the 'wing. Maybe Yamaha got it right.

CA G-Man · Apr 21, 2014

Old Guy said:
So far, the integrated brakes haven't bothered me on the FJR, but I hated them on my Goldwing. When trying to do a slow U-turn on the 'wing, I'd try to drag the rear brake to modulate the speed, and the damned front brake would activate while the bars were turned and make the front end plow. I can do a circle on the FJR with my bars bouncing off the steering stop, but I could barely do a U-turn with the 'wing. Maybe Yamaha got it right.

Apologies to the early readers for the botched link.

Old Guy: Funny you should say this. The paper says "Honda utilizes a different type of CCBS that electronically distributes brake force over both wheels with either control. The system electronically measures rider input on the brake controls and applies both brakes or only the front or rear." Not sure if that describes the Goldwing system you referred to but it might go to show that execution matters.

Old Guy · Apr 21, 2014

CA G-Man said:
Old Guy said:

So far, the integrated brakes haven't bothered me on the FJR, but I hated them on my Goldwing. When trying to do a slow U-turn on the 'wing, I'd try to drag the rear brake to modulate the speed, and the damned front brake would activate while the bars were turned and make the front end plow. I can do a circle on the FJR with my bars bouncing off the steering stop, but I could barely do a U-turn with the 'wing. Maybe Yamaha got it right.

Click to expand...

Apologies to the early readers for the botched link.

Old Guy: Funny you should say this. The paper says "Honda utilizes a different type of CCBS that electronically distributes brake force over both wheels with either control. The system electronically measures rider input on the brake controls and applies both brakes or only the front or rear." Not sure if that describes the Goldwing system you referred to but it might go to show that execution matters.

Maybe I was mashing on the pedal wrong

I know that I rode the 'wing for 11 years, and every time I'd try to control my speed in U-turns with the brake pedal it'd apply the front brake as well. Of course, the 'wing was an '02 model, so maybe they've improved it since then. So far, so good with the FJR.

CA G-Man · Apr 21, 2014

Old Guy said:
CA G-Man said:

Old Guy said:

So far, the integrated brakes haven't bothered me on the FJR, but I hated them on my Goldwing. When trying to do a slow U-turn on the 'wing, I'd try to drag the rear brake to modulate the speed, and the damned front brake would activate while the bars were turned and make the front end plow. I can do a circle on the FJR with my bars bouncing off the steering stop, but I could barely do a U-turn with the 'wing. Maybe Yamaha got it right.

Click to expand...

Apologies to the early readers for the botched link.

Old Guy: Funny you should say this. The paper says "Honda utilizes a different type of CCBS that electronically distributes brake force over both wheels with either control. The system electronically measures rider input on the brake controls and applies both brakes or only the front or rear." Not sure if that describes the Goldwing system you referred to but it might go to show that execution matters.

Click to expand...

Maybe I was mashing on the pedal wrong

I know that I rode the 'wing for 11 years, and every time I'd try to control my speed in U-turns with the brake pedal it'd apply the front brake as well. Of course, the 'wing was an '02 model, so maybe they've improved it since then. So far, so good with the FJR.

I meant execution of the integrated brake concept, not your execution of the braking maneuver (in case there was any doubt).

Old Guy · Apr 21, 2014

CA G-Man said:
Old Guy said:

CA G-Man said:

Old Guy said:

So far, the integrated brakes haven't bothered me on the FJR, but I hated them on my Goldwing. When trying to do a slow U-turn on the 'wing, I'd try to drag the rear brake to modulate the speed, and the damned front brake would activate while the bars were turned and make the front end plow. I can do a circle on the FJR with my bars bouncing off the steering stop, but I could barely do a U-turn with the 'wing. Maybe Yamaha got it right.

Click to expand...

Apologies to the early readers for the botched link.

Old Guy: Funny you should say this. The paper says "Honda utilizes a different type of CCBS that electronically distributes brake force over both wheels with either control. The system electronically measures rider input on the brake controls and applies both brakes or only the front or rear." Not sure if that describes the Goldwing system you referred to but it might go to show that execution matters.

Click to expand...

Maybe I was mashing on the pedal wrong

I know that I rode the 'wing for 11 years, and every time I'd try to control my speed in U-turns with the brake pedal it'd apply the front brake as well. Of course, the 'wing was an '02 model, so maybe they've improved it since then. So far, so good with the FJR.

Click to expand...

I meant execution of the integrated brake concept, not your execution of the braking maneuver (in case there was any doubt).

bergmen · Apr 21, 2014

Old Guy said:
Maybe Yamaha got it right.

It would be my opinion that this is exactly the case. I can't speak from as much FJR experience as most of the experts on this forum, but after 50+ years of riding, I have ridden my share of modern, high performance motorcycles. My 2014 A has the absolute best brakes I have ever experienced on two wheels. Outstanding feel, feedback, power and control and I have not gotten close to ABS actuation yet. IMO, the Unified Brakes on the Feej are absolutely fabulous, coordinated and very confidence inspiring.

Dan

garyahouse · Apr 21, 2014

All I know is that every once in a while, when I get myself into trouble, I mash on both of them brakes and that 650 lb machine stops like somebody threw out an anchor. Thanks to ABS, maybe, just maybe, I can enjoy the rest of my riding years without an accident. I personally believe that ABS is the greatest invention since the wheel. There are a lot of inventions that have come along within the last couple dozen years that have really made a difference in the safety, convenience, and reliability of modern motorcycles. LED lighting, fuel injection, cruise control, disk brakes, and more recently, ABS. But as for me, as much as I appreciate all of these advancements, it's the one thing I don't use (much) that trumps them all: the ABS.

Gary

darksider #44

Old Guy · Apr 21, 2014

I have used the anti-lock on a wet road, and I think it's the only reason I got stopped. I popped over a little hill doing about 45mph in the rain, and there was a stop sign right there! My first instinct, from habit, was to try to feather them and avoid lock up, then I remembered I had anti-lock when I felt the rear activate. So I pulled the front harder as well, and came to a controlled stop at the sign.

art miller · Apr 21, 2014

U-turns and tight turns in parking lots and gas stations are easy when dragging the rear brake, a little throttle, and looking thru the turn. With linked ABS this seems to work best for me.

Old Guy · Apr 21, 2014

art miller said:
U-turns and tight turns in parking lots and gas stations are easy when dragging the rear brake, a little throttle, and looking thru the turn. With linked ABS this seems to work best for me.

Put the steering lock on the stop and apply the front brakes and things can get wonky quickly. That's what'd happen when I used the rear brake pedal on the 'wing. The FJR seems to understand that, at 2mph, there's no need to apply the front

lnewlf · Apr 22, 2014

Front brake is only "integrated" with the rear pedal when a preset amount of line pressure is attained...Ergo, light application of the rear brake has no effect on the front and will not affect parking lot maneuvers.

RaYzerman19 · Apr 22, 2014

I had both the Honda ST and GL. The Honda linked system has it's advantages, as it applies more brake on the front when the rear pedal is applied. Very handy for scrubbing speed off when trail braking, whereas when I first got the FJR I thought the rear brakes sucked. All a matter of adapting........ I think the Honda ABS system is better though, more responsive.

ON the GL, there is an anti-dive valve on the left fork that some disabled. This does not disable the linked system though.

The FJR linked brake system uses a proportioning valve and a metering valve to control how much goes up front (see 1-4 of your service manual), but it also says it prevents early locking of the rear wheel when a large amount of force is applied...... maybe this is why I think there's something lacking with the ABS....... it might be causing a delay on the rear. Dunno, I'm still diagnosing my ABS issues.

Brody · Jun 2, 2014

The brakes on the Super Tenere are terrific. ABS which cuts out @ very slow speed under 5 mph. Apply front brake 1st & you get unified braking. Apply back brake 1st and not unified. So ZERO problems with trail braking.

RaYzerman19 · Jun 2, 2014

The FJR's ABS also cuts out @ low speed also. The unified braking system on Gen II & Gen III has a metering valve which until a certain differential pressure threshold has been reached, does not apply pressure to the front right lower caliper pads. Yamaha says low amount of input so conventional brakes are used for such things as making U-turns.

There is also a proportioning valve on GenII & Gen III which "reduces the increase in brake fluid pressure that is transmitted to the rear caliper when the pressure reaches a set level........... when there is a high amount of brake pedal input".

IIHS Study on Integrated Braking Systems

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