Gen III Spiders?

mcatrophy · Aug 10, 2014

I've been wandering round my 2014 FJR1300AS, and seen quite a few what look like Spiders. I've not taken any apart (they're all taped hard into the wiring loom), so don't know if they're the same part as used on the Gen II. I strongly suspect I've not found them all.

Those I've seen so far I show below, together with my best guess as to their use. Be aware my bike is the (UK) AS, so it has the YCC-S wiring and the electrically adjustable suspension, and I only have the Haynes wiring diagram for the non-YCC-S variant.

(click on image for larger view)

Three, right hand side above the air intake. Blue/red - ignition after the cut-off relay? Blue - feed to various sensors, black/white - ECU ground?:

One beside the battery, blue/red, from the the hazard light fuse?:

One in front of battery (blue/white, starter solenoid? (ignore my lump):

Four, front left of engine. Blue - feed to various sensors, Red/white - ignition, red/black - ignition from main switch, black/white - ECU ground?:

One behind the fuel rail, red/blue, supply to injectors and sensors?:

Has anyone had theirs apart to see what they really are? Can anyone be more positive as to their usage? Where are there any more?

RossKean · Aug 10, 2014

Nothing wrong with spiders as a means of bringing grounds together as long as:

1) Don't daisy-chain them so one pin/wire is carrying far more current than it should (hopefully the re-design addresses this)

2) Make sure they are protected from the elements. These look better than the originals with the tape (or whatever) around them but I would keep an eye on them.

It would be easy enough to check if they are, in fact, grounds. Less easy to determine the current flowing through individual wires.

Queensland Ken · Aug 10, 2014

Was too scared to touch them.

It's a bit of a step backward from the Gen2, a 2nd year apprentice can make a better wiring loom than what's on the 3's.

I also think some of the bikes wiring isn't as per wiring schematic in the service manual.

I sat down using the color codes to determine the functions, got a headache, then buttoned the bike back up.

There are the usual dreaded neutral spiders, both high current and low current ECU, and now ignition switched and un-switched power distribution connector blocks.

On the bright side, at least the bike hasn't a CAN Bus.

rPGoatBoy · Aug 10, 2014

Queensland Ken said:
On the bright side, at least the bike hasn't a CAN Bus.

Please excuse my ignorance of the CAN Bus, but wouldn't that be a benefit to the bike from an end user's standpoint with what I'm assuming is an incredible amount of off the shelf software that can play with (or at least view) the parameters of said system? Isn't that what my bluetooth adapter plugged into the diagnostic port of my pickup truck is tapping into when I'm getting real time information from any number of the sensors that control the engine's performance? I guess my question is why haven't Yamaha and other manufactures adopted the CAN Bus?

Queensland Ken · Aug 10, 2014

A bit of tongue in cheek, sorry.

BMW and a few other bikes such as the Trophy, I had for 3 months, have it.

Likewise the manufactures try and make it propriety so you must take the bike to a dealer to plug in their test tool.

You can't service the bike without some kind of "Dealer Tool", eg you can not perform a TBS without the tool or replace a TPMS sensor.

The manufactures are forcing you to that the bike to a dealer to perform maintenance.

All sorts of problems with a CAN Bus, esp the the poor implementation of it on the Trophy, can't comment on BMW's.

It will be a sad day if the FJR heads that way.

Everything you need to know, plus more, is available via the bike's diagnostics.

ionbeam · Aug 11, 2014

Queensland Ken said:
...BMW and a few other bikes such as the Trophy...have it...Likewise the manufactures try and make it propriety so you must take the bike to a dealer to plug in their test tool.
You can't service the bike without some kind of "Dealer Tool", eg you can not perform a TBS without the tool or replace a TPMS sensor...All sorts of problems with a CAN Bus, esp the the poor implementation of it on the Trophy, can't comment on BMW's...

Actually CAN Bus can be pretty helpful. I've used code readers for OBD I and OBD II for my cars and some of the software packages are real good. If you own a K1600 you can now get a HEX Code GS-911 for ~$300 which will read and reset codes. That is less than what the first major service will cost. Who would have thought that wire reduction and diagnostic improvements would be a bad thing

Spiders, ya gotta love 'em. Make all the wires one color, put them in connectors that aren't shown on the schematic so we not only DON'T know the connectors, we don't know the pins either. The dealers must have some kind of spider map that us civilians can't get without drawing our own self-help schematics. As Ross says, spiders can be tamed and be useful if managed carefully.

mcatrophy · Aug 11, 2014

RossKean said:
Nothing wrong with spiders as a means of bringing grounds together as long as:
1) Don't daisy-chain them so one pin/wire is carrying far more current than it should (hopefully the re-design addresses this)

2) Make sure they are protected from the elements. These look better than the originals with the tape (or whatever) around them but I would keep an eye on them.

It would be easy enough to check if they are, in fact, grounds. Less easy to determine the current flowing through individual wires.

I've only found one that seems to be a ground. All the others are where supplies got to several loads.

The protection doesn't look good to me at all. The wire end doesn't appear to be sealed, so water can ingress easily. What they have done is to tape the "free" end tight to the loom, so you are going to have to do some serious work to free them enough to even check if any corrosion has started. If they are made the same as the Gen II's, I fear for some trouble down the line.

I still love the bike, I wouldn't not buy it because of a few spiders

.

Queensland Ken · Aug 11, 2014

Will have a better look next time the plastics / tank come off.

I did a post on the Aussie Forum a few months ago with a few pics addressing my concerns re the exposed connectors.

I will not loose any sleep over it, but something to be wary off.

When the bike is out of warranty I'll strip out the connectors and carbon grease them.

Seal them with self amalgamating tape.

OldButNotDead (sockpuppet) · Sep 2, 2014

ionbeam said:
Queensland Ken said:

...BMW and a few other bikes such as the Trophy...have it...Likewise the manufactures try and make it propriety so you must take the bike to a dealer to plug in their test tool.
You can't service the bike without some kind of "Dealer Tool", eg you can not perform a TBS without the tool or replace a TPMS sensor...All sorts of problems with a CAN Bus, esp the the poor implementation of it on the Trophy, can't comment on BMW's...

Click to expand...

Actually CAN Bus can be pretty helpful. I've used code readers for OBD I and OBD II for my cars and some of the software packages are real good. If you own a K1600 you can now get a HEX Code GS-911 for ~$300 which will read and reset codes. That is less than what the first major service will cost. Who would have thought that wire reduction and diagnostic improvements would be a bad thing

Spiders, ya gotta love 'em. Make all the wires one color, put them in connectors that aren't shown on the schematic so we not only DON'T know the connectors, we don't know the pins either. The dealers must have some kind of spider map that us civilians can't get without drawing our own self-help schematics. As Ross says, spiders can be tamed and be useful if managed carefully.

Actually, most, and I do mean most BMW guys have no clue what a CAN Bus is. They blame everything electrical on the CAN Bus. An example of a CAN Bus problem is on a 2011 R1200GS that I had I wanted to put in an HID low beam. If I used a 55w HID setup, it would throw a lampf1 failure by way of the CAN Bus. The problem really was not the CAN Bus, but the design of the ZFE (a BMW ECU). The sensor read current to the low beam. When the HID was cold and turning on, it pulled a bit more current than the sensor allowed. The CAN Bus just signaled the error had taken place. My major concern with the spyder type of ground is the growing amount of electronics that all bikes seem to be accumulating. Electronic devices are sensitive to ground loops and those spyders could provide alternate ground paths. On the BMW, to get around CAN Bus and a method an FJR could use is to put in Blue Seas or FZ1 junction box wired right off the battery for all electronic add ons.

Fred W · Sep 2, 2014

Even if you use a CAN buss, you still need a DC power distribution system and a need to return the common (ground) wires back to the negative side of the power buss. CAN is just a communication protocol that can be used to determine status and perform control of peripheral devices.

In other words, we could have been so unlucky as to have both CAN and Spiders.

OldButNotDead (sockpuppet) · Sep 2, 2014

Fred W said:
Even if you use a CAN buss, you still need a DC power distribution system and a need to return the common (ground) wires back to the negative side of the power buss. CAN is just a communication protocol that can be used to determine status and perform control of peripheral devices.
In other words, we could have been so unlucky as to have both CAN and Spiders.

Man, that would be the perfect storm

IMO, the CAN Buss is an anti-farkle device. Not so much that you can't farkle, but it raises the price for CAN Bus compatible devices and creates a mind set that only CAN Bus approval is necessary for all farkles to work.

Queensland Ken · Sep 2, 2014

You could bet ya $$$$ that if Yamaha did introduce a CAN Bus system, it will be some kind of proprietary protocol with a locked ECU.

Has anyone cracked the Yamaha's diagnostic port on the Gen 3 yet ???

We are lucky that we can access all diagnostics on the FJR, a lot of other bikes need some kind of proprietary or aftermarket. "tool".

Would hate to be stuck in far Western Australia with a side stand couldn't communicate with the bus.

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