High Output Stators

I'm splitting this off from another dead stator thread in the Technical/Mechanical Problems area that was becoming divergent from the opening issue.

In that thread there was mention of Rick's Mototrsport Electrics with a couple of people that gave them a good reference. There was a bit of confusion if they had offerings for our FJRs, and since they are ~3 miles from my house I said I would stop in sometime. Today was that time.

Rick's is in a fairly new industrial complex, I would guess that Rick's is roughly 10-14k sq/ft and neatly kept. Master Rick will be out of town until next week so I didn't get a chance to speak with him today. I was asked to come back in a couple of weeks, after Rick recovers from having been out of the office for an extended length of time. Rick's does their own stator design work and their own winding. They do starter rebuilding completely on site. They say that they have worked with a Taiwanese firm to develop their Rectifier/Regulators. I have some thoughts about that, I'll hold them until after I talk with Rick.

I spoke with dazzling, deep blue eyed Amanda at first, then others that got drawn in. Even though there is a catalog listing for a FJR stator they have never offered one or rebuilt one. When I mentioned that there was a cross reference between a R1 stator and a FJR stator they couldn't verify that. There was definite interest in both stock and HO stators for the FJR. We discussed the power outputs of the Gen I and Gen II alternators (generators) and some design goals. When I go back, one of the things we will start with is assessing what, if anything can be done to reliably increase wattage in the given space. -- Is there anyone with an engine apart that could assist in making space measurements in the stator area? -- The stator diameter is fixed but the stator can grow in thickness (width) at least a small amount. If it looks like Rick's has an opportunity to make a RELIABLE HO stator we will proceed with the study.

I mentioned that my aftermarket HO stator failed, and others are starting to fail too. Amanda asked how many miles I had on my stator and I replied 36k miles. There was a twittering around the room with snickering and chuckling like comes with an inside joke. Finally they broke the news to me that my mileage was actually pretty good for a stator that made ~100 watts over stock output :blink: After a quick inspection of my bike and a discussion about what others are running on their bikes one gentleman suggested towing a small trailer with a light-water nuclear reactor. Another offered that they have seen a supplemental alternator kit that bolts onto some Ducatis in addition to the OEM stator.

Thinking of our good pal Skoot I asked about starter rebuilds. They do the whole job on site, including winding and bearings. The typical cost is $165 to $175. I told them about the motor shaft seal letting oil into the starter and making a real mess. Well, let me tell ya, Skoot's starter looks pretty good compared to some of the starters they get.

I'll be going back to see Rick and will update this with any news. Anyone have any specific questions they would like to have me ask?

Good recon mission!

Interesting that they thought the aftermarket HO stator should have such a short lifespan. What did Yamaha do to it between Gen I and II to increase wattage by 100, yet keep long life?

And thanks for the info on the starter rebuild. Seems a bit pricey in my clueless opinion, though still much less than a replacement. Or at least verifies that I got quite the deal on my $90 delivered salvage starter.

Now, what switches is it that I want O-electirfied-one?

SkooterG said:

...What did Yamaha do to it between Gen I and II to increase wattage by 100, yet keep long life?

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Size matters, size was designed into the GenII.

Now, what switches is it that I want O-electirfied-one?

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Won't be now, I'm on my way to the garage to pull my wheels 'cause I've got a bad case of cords and two new rubbers just waiting to be slipped in.

SkooterG said:

What did Yamaha do to it between Gen I and II to increase wattage by 100, yet keep long life?

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Lots of component changes in this system between the two generations. Larger rotor/windings, completely different R/R that is located in a complete different area of the bike, and using different connectors from Gen I.

I would have liked to have thought they would enhance the stator's oil cooling properties to try to keep from producing stator "hot spots" over time, but I haven't been able to research this issue.

I've had a few dealings with "Rick's" -- the most notable was a custom rewind on a stator for a kickstart bike that had magneto CDI (the electricity for the ignition was sourced off part of the stator). The bike was a very difficult starter (kick-start only) and the owner was at wits' end.

I contacted Rick's and he agreed to rewind it -- although they hadn't done one before. The result was a resounding success -- the bike's owner said it didn't start that well when new (could've had a poor stator then -- it was a Yamaha.... ).

I had occasion to talk with the owner recently and he said the bike still starts well -- 8 or 9 years after the re-wind.

Any chance of getting an upgraded stator for the Gen IIs?

PIG!

We will talk about it.

(What the heck are you doing that makes this a valid request?)

ionbeam said:

PIG!

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Exactly! Greedy little *******, ain't he?



Oh, and Alan, just because you got cords showing doesn't necessarily mean you have to put new tires on right away.

ionbeam said:

PIG!
We will talk about it.

(What the heck are you doing that makes this a valid request?)

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I need a little bit more power to get the reaction to start.

johnny80s said:

ionbeam said:

PIG!
We will talk about it.

(What the heck are you doing that makes this a valid request?)

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I need a little bit more power to get the reaction to start.

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don't have that problem, but when the "too hot" light comes on, it really takes alot wattage to run the cooling system

best to have an effective cooling system for that unit, I hear... :blink:

Thanks!

Keep us posted, if Rick is able to pull this off, maybe a group buy would be in order next winter.

+1 on the GB potential. Maybe that possibility would make the R&D more palatable for Mr Rick.

I can see myself wanting one. I have held off on the E-sport mainly due to the reports of poor reliability.

ionbeam said:

Anyone have any specific questions they would like to have me ask?

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Ask him if he knows why the Electrosport has a bad reputation.

I'd like to know why one stator lasts longer than the other. Better wire? Better insulation? Wound differently? Core material? Winding technique?

ionbeam said:

Size matters, size was designed into the GenII.

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I assume a higher power stator has more windings. So does this mean that higher power stators with the same size have thinner wire insulation? Is this why they fail more often? Or are they thinner and more fragile wires?

dcarver said:

I'd like to know why one stator lasts longer than the other. Better wire? Better insulation? Wound differently? Core material? Winding technique?

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Crash Cash said:

thinner wire insulation? Is this why they fail more often? Or are they thinner and more fragile wires?

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DC -- Wire gauge appropriate for the application, definitely better wire insulation, better winding patterns, better winding techniques. Laminating plates for stators is more of a matter of quantity (stator thickness). In a related thread Constant Mesh says that the laminations need to be insulated to prevent 'hot spots'. It still comes back to break down of the insulation on the wires.

CC -- Thicker wire such as #12 vs #18 will increase current generation. Assuming normal stator use the typical failure mode will be insulation failure on the windings. A heaver gauge wire will not heat as much, but as number of turns go down so does the generated voltage. Ideally you would like to retain the same number of turns on a thicker stator core while using a larger gauge wire with tougher insulation. While being ideal, it would be great to use a rotor with higher strength magnets too.

Stator wire insulation in wet motorcycle applications has to be able to withstand oil and solvents, remain intact as the wire expands and contracts from temperature, be flexible enough to take the wire forming and tough enough to resist damage during the winding. Winding insulation classes are typically Enamel, Nylon, polyurethane and some combination of these insulations. Insulation thickness it referred to as Builds -- S = Single build - H = Heavy build - T = Triple build - Q = Quadruple build. Insulation thickness definitely play a roll in calculating number of turns on a bobbin, form or core. The performance of these coatings are found by NEMA ratings.

Stator life can be enhanced by using insulators and by 'potting' the stator in some kind of resin. I pot some of my power products with a hard epoxy like compound and others in a soft silicon based compound.

Look for Rick's stator that is competing in wattage wars to utilize different winding techniques for sure, possibly different stator core laminating, and wire with better insulation. Part of the trick is to do all this and still be priced competitively.

Daaaamn, thanks for the killer informative post. That answered all sorts of questions.

More info on FJR alternators (maybe?):

The other day I was sitting around with a couple fellow riders when the topic of an old Venture Royale that was f.s. in my neighborhood came up. The one Venture knowledgeable guy said that he didn't think it had the "hollow alternator rotor bolt" conversion. "What's that?" I asked. He said Yamaha retrofitted a hollow rotor mounting bolt to get more cooling oil to the stator.

...Nothing new under the sun... :blink: :huh:

charismaticmegafauna said:

More info on FJR alternators (maybe?):The other day I was sitting around with a couple fellow riders when the topic of an old Venture Royale that was f.s. in my neighborhood came up. The one Venture knowledgeable guy said that he didn't think it had the "hollow alternator rotor bolt" conversion. "What's that?" I asked. He said Yamaha retrofitted a hollow rotor mounting bolt to get more cooling oil to the stator.

...Nothing new under the sun... :blink: :huh:

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That must have been a First Gen. ('83 - '85) Venture that was for sale. They had a stator that was known to burn out. Yamaha had a recall on those bikes that consisted of a hollow bolt kit. Oil would flow through this bolt and flow over the windings to help cool them. The Second Gen. bikes ('86 - '92) were re-designed.

Sounds kinda familiar.

The Venture also had a connector burn out situation. The AC 3 wire connector between the alternator and voltage regulator would age, the contacts built up resistance from oxides on their surfaces. A lot of owners just cut the connector out of the circuit and solder the wires end to end. That solved the voltage drop from a shorted out phase. It's a shame that mighty V4 only had a 390 watt alternator.

Brodie