FJRF003.1: Ignition Switch

Maybe not the majority view, but I'll be with Ponyfool in thinking that Yamaha wasn't totally pushed into this. If you've ever been in manufacturing in a big company, think about how long it would take to:

Recognize that this one component that had been successful in this and other products for years was suddenly having a problem.

Do the lab and field investigations to both identify the problem, and the cause(s).

Redesign the switch. (Straight-forward, but it has it's own process and approvals.)

Do the lab and field testing to qualify it.

Do the production planning, probably having to get vendor support

Start production (later 2009 bikes have a different part number, so I'm guessing they have the fix)

Do the logistics for implementing the change to the new switches.

Plus whatever time for the negotiating they did with NHTSA.

I've worked with other Japanese companies and they are typically as painstakingly thorough (as in time-consuming) as the legends allege. There is no way that Yamaha did this in 4 months from the start of the NHTSA investigation. Things just don't work that fast. To me, Yamaha had clearly been working on this for a lot longer than that.

This probably would have been a problem for somebody like a reliability engineer before the safety group got involved. We all have budgets and need to set priorities and Yamaha would be no different. The safety group focus would have been on higher priorities than one in which failure meant coasting to a stop. For example, it's no secret that one of their 4-wheelers has been involved in multiple roll-over deaths. If you were the manager of a staff of X people in either of those groups, which problem would have the greater priority? Somewhere in Yamaha, somebody had to ask "Do we take people off the quad problem and put them on this ignition switch? How many people do we take away from the problem that caused the fatalities?" Those are really tough questions. Followed closely by somebody else saying "There's been a group already looking into the switches since <date>."

No question that Yamaha got their priorities shifted by NHTSA and we helped that. But I do think that Yamaha was already on it. YMMV, but I also think that we ought to appreciate that they and NHTSA changed this particular priority before one of us FJR riders got hurt.

Bob

Just got off the phone with Yamaha...they have not been notified of any recall as of today. Guy told me they usually get a significant heads up lead when a recall is about to happen. He has not been notified yet.

Here is the action in case some cant get the link. NOTE: no 2008 year models were mentioned in the NHTSA action, but Yamaha is including 2008 and early 2009 models.

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Recall Campaign 09V002000 has 1 Related Investigation(s)

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NHTSA Action Number: EA08025

Vehicle Make / Model: Model Year(s): YAMAHA / FJR13

2007

YAMAHA / FJR1300A

2006

YAMAHA / FJR1300AE

2006

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Manufacturer:

YAMAHA MOTOR CORPORATION, USA

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Component:

ELECTRICAL SYSTEM:IGNITION:SWITCH

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Date Investigation Opened:

November 21, 2008

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Date Investigation Closed:

January 9, 2009

Summary:

ODI IS AWARE OF AT LEAST 45 ALLEGATIONS OF FJR1300 ENGINE STALLING WHILE UNDERWAY DUE TO AN IGNITION SWITCH FAILURE. IN SOME INSTANCES, CYCLING THE SWITCH WILL ALLOW RE-START. FJRFORUM.COM HAS NUMEROUS THREADS ALLEGING THE SAME ISSUE. SHORTLY AFTER OPENING THIS EA, AND BEFORE RECEIVING A RELATED INFORMATION REQUEST FROM US, YAMAHA DECIDED TO CONDUCT A SAFETY RECALL (09V-002) TO INSTALL NEW IGNITION SWITCHES IN ALL MY 2006-8 AND EARLY MY 2009 FJR1300 MOTORCYCLES. WITH THAT DECISION, THIS INVESTIGATION IS CLOSED.

Checkswrecks said:

Recognize that this one component that had been successful in this and other products for years was suddenly having a problem.
Bob

Click to expand...

Bob,

That first sentence (yes I've taken it out of context) seems to point at everything this Forum has found out about the switch.

Poor solder, wire strain, excessive heat, dirt. A "perfect storm" so to speak either caused by the bike itself or inferior quality switches (changed vendor for cost savings?).

I believe they have the fix in place and were "nudged" by the Feds to get started earlier than they may have wanted.

We shall see.

Ignacio said:

FJRF002 - Throttle Abruptness Issue (Gen II Bikes) (Most use G2 Ergo Throttle Tube)

Click to expand...

A pity Yamaha chose to ignore the throttle issue as it did/does affect so many.

No one expects Yamaha to fix the issue by replacing the throttle bodies with 08 ones, all they had to do was to make some plastic throttle tubes with a different cam profile, just like the G2 tube.

Would have been good for customer relations and the tubes would have cost Yamaha next to nothing, a lot cheaper than a G2.

Ignacio said:

mr.paul said:

Bout time yamaha. At least they did react (listening BMW?)

Click to expand...

Let's clarify this point because I think it's important to understand how this recall fits into how past FJR issues have been handled.

Yamaha did react to this one because there was the force of government behind it. It being a formal recall wasn't as a result of Yamaha coming to this point all by themselves. I do think it did come to a head though in significant part by the quality research and reporting done by folks like by Barabus. That in turn then made it a more compelling case and more timely in action.

Contrast that with say the BMW final drives. I don't think anybody in their user community did the detailed analysis and reporting that was done on this and they DEFINITELY haven't come even close to concensus. Many BMW folks are still in denial. If they were actually to come to a consensus......they could likely get the same action.

Then also view this on a continuum of resolution scale. This, unfortunately, fits more on the "Yamaha Got Armtwisted Into Having to Do Something" end. I think we'd much rather have been it be on the "Yamaha Did the Right Thing and Proactively Fixed Things" more like the Throttle Position Sensor issue.....or at least the "Yamaha Will Do the Right Thing and Fix Those Bikes That Are Asked By Owners" slot...like the ticker issue.

Sigh. Maybe the next one......

So, in large part I'm saying that this issue is third of four significant issues identified by this forum...with most of them resolved. We should be very proud in what we've done to contribute to the continued health and well-being of a great motorcycle. :yahoo:

FJRF001 - Valve Ticking / Premature Exhaust Valve Guide Seal Issue (Gen I Bikes) (Fixed since 2006)

FJRF002 - Throttle Abruptness Issue (Gen II Bikes) (Most use G2 Ergo Throttle Tube)

FJRF003 - Ignition Failure (Approaching Resolution)

FJRF004 - Altitude Sickness (2006/2007 Bikes) (Fixed for 2008)

Click to expand...

Excellent post, as it provided historical perspective.

I think the entire process worked well:

1. Individuals gathering, researching, documenting, contacting the mfr and governmental agencies.

2. While the mfr may have been, uh, reluctant, the government agency did its job, thus

3. 'Encouraging' the mfr to get off the ball and make things right.

Did it take too much time? IMHO, yes. See Iggies response above.

Am I very happy no has been hurt or killed (that we know of) due to this problem? You betcha.

For me, I'll be getting a new switch, keyed to my bags, and run the Brodie mod. Only makes sense.

Sure seems like a loooong time ago since my switch failed me in Death Valley..

I think it was more than a nudge, I think it was also the potential liability. They are not the first company in denial, at least publicly. Someone could have been killed. I am sure legal reminded them about it. Some of the "we don't know anything about it companies and ramifications"

Bridestone ( AKA Firestone 500 tire)

Ford ( the exploding tank on the Pinto)

Chevrolet ( Corvair ( launched Ralph Naders career with his book "unsafe at any speed")) I think Yamaha was playing dumb ( plausible deniability) , knew about it and was indeed working on a fix. The Fed came down on them and since the cat was out of the bag had to react. I too have worked at large companies and know how the game is played.

Personally, if some bike shop ******s tried to give me that line of BS I'd let them know that the stuff I read on the internet, specifically here on the FJRForum, has more credibility than they do. Maybe they should get on the internet more often?

Agreed. I know these guys personally but they'll be eating crow soon enough.

Ignacio said:

(...)However, somebody who is enterprising enough might be able to deduce more specific information by wading through recall information and range it. You wanna volunteer and report back so we can have an answer to this commonly asked question?

Click to expand...

If we see any type of physical change to the weep hole, like a scoop-shaped cover, decreased hole size, or fiber pad inside, we'll know for sure that the contaminant/dirt theory applied. But there's no way I'm sawing my new switch in half just to take pics!

As the owner of an 07, I want to add my thanks to all on this forum who have been instrumental in getting this matter addressed sooner rather than later. I am confident that the concerted efforts of those of you who pursued this and documented it has impacted Yamaha's action to occur now instead of much later.

I brought the switch problem up to my dealer a couple of months ago and they denied any knowledge of a problem and at my request they asked their Dist. Rep. and his response was he knew nothiing about it and for me to quit worrying about it and just ride it. Needless to say I was not too impressed with him.

Now we will have to wait and see how long it takes them to send out all the letters and get the new switches to the dealers. Again thanks to all of you and I must say this forum definitely rocks.

Checkswrecks said:

No question that Yamaha got their priorities shifted by NHTSA and we helped that. But I do think that Yamaha was already on it. YMMV, but I also think that we ought to appreciate that they and NHTSA changed this particular priority before one of us FJR riders got hurt.

Click to expand...

More great perspective! We're glad you're here my friend!

Then I would amend my categorization one notch closer to the good end of the spectrum. I guess my scale would ave a new increment. Perhaps this one is "Yamaha Would Have Fixed It, But Got Nudged Into Doing Things More Quickly".

I shall call it the Ignacio's Corporation O' Proactivity Scale .

Yamaha Did the Right Thing and Proactively Fixed Things



Yamaha Will Do the Right Thing and Fix Those Bikes That Are Asked By Owners



Yamaha Would Have Fixed It, But Got Nudged Into Doing Things More Quickly






Yamaha Got Armtwisted Into A Recall






Send Lawyers, Guns, Money and a Tow Truck....The BMW Final Drive Has **** the Bed

I work at a Yamaha Dealership and will post as soon as Yamaha gets it to us or puts it on the Yamaha Dealer Network. I can tell you as of close of biz today (Jan 15th) we have not been notified as to the recall. I checked our on hand inventory and we had one switch on hand but if Yamaha does like in all past recall issues (Roadstar tranny) they send out special kits to fix the problem. I'll do my best to get you folks any info as soon as I see it here.

Wow, wow!! Fantastic news. FJRforum.com really handled this one the right way- we collected information and reported it objectively. Everyone deserves major kudos- forum admins, members that participated and the NHSTA. NHSTA worked quickly on this issue. Thankfully nobody got hurt, but the potential for death or serious injury was real. Now this motorcyle will be better than ever.

HaulinAshe said:

ponyfool said:

(...)I'm looking forward to seeing what the new switch guts look like. Now, if SockMonkey was correct in his assessment, maybe the design is exactly the same, but the soldering process has been corrected.

Click to expand...

I'm hoping this is NOT the only aspect of the problem they are targeting. If so, then I'm confident that switch failures will continue to occur.

One of the first rules of troubleshooting is, "If you have a problem that cannot be readily located, you are probably looking for two problems that mask each other."

I'm betting that there were problems BOTH with the soldering attachment points and the weep hole.

Click to expand...

Jeff,

I tend to agree with you, the weep hole does let in contaminants. Perhaps the reason there haven't been that many 2008 bikes reporting problems is this is the first winter weather for them - it's just a matter of time now before they start dropping like flies too. When the switch contacts get dirty or corroded they will add resistance to the circuit. There isn't that much contact area to begin with for the amount of amperage channeling through that switch. A dirty switch may be the start of the thermal runaway that takes it out. Hopefully Yamaha took that into consideration when redesigning the unit.

Yes, when I get my recall notice I will obtain the new switch.

I will insist on keeping my bike one key!
Brodie

A FWIW post, YMMV.

There are a variety of electrical switch contact styles, the most common types are knife blade, butt action(!), and self cleaning

or self wiping. The FJR ignition switch (IS) is a wiping action switch because the contacts wipe or slide against each other when

opening or closing the IS circuit. This action is intended to inhibit the build-up of non-conductive deposits and oxidation on the

contacts themselves. Typically this kind of contact is used in AC applications. Almost all wiping action contacts have some limitations

on current, voltage and durability -- more on this later.

The pictures below have been shamelessly ripped off from various sources without acknowledgment or consent from the

picture posters.

In the following picture you are looking at the back of the white part of the switch that contains the spring loaded contacts.

At the top of the picture is the housing that has the weep hole. You can see the housing and back of the switch are dirty

but the dirt is on the non-electrical side of the switch and mostly blocked from getting on the switch contacts. The dirt

would have to migrate upward to get into the electrical contact area. In none of the pictures in any of the postings have

I seen dirt on the contacts. Live and in person you may see dirt on the contacts that these pictures don't show.



In the next picture you see the electrical contacts on each half of the switch. On the left side you can see the non moving

copper high current conductors. The nefarious Red and Brown wires are soldered to these contacts on the back of the

black contact retainer.

On the right, the white plastic holds the spring loaded electrical contacts. This is the moving half of the switch that

rotates with the key. The spring loaded contact's job is to bridge between two of the fixed copper terminals

effectively (and sometimes ineffectively) shorting the copper contacts together completing the IS power circuit.

Note the contact at the bottom of the switch is highly heat discolored. [controversial statement 1]

The heat in this contact may be transferred to the highly thermally conductive copper terminal and melt the Red or Brown

wire's solder. [controversial statement 2] Or, the heat melts and distorts the white plastic

contact retainer so that the spring force is inhibited or the contacts do not move up and down exactly vertical causing the

spring loaded contact not to have equal force on the two copper contacts being bridged resulting in resistance and yet more heat.



This is a close-up of the spring loaded contacts. Note the heat discolored contact, a reoccurring theme in most but not all

pictures. The tip of the bumps on the contacts is all the surface area that comes into contact with the copper contacts.

For all the size of the spring loaded contact only a tiny amount of area carries all the IS power, one actual measurement

showed an average of 21 amps. Picture >20 amps going through just the tip of the bump. The spring will impart a strong

seating force between the rotating contact and fixed copper contact. The strong seating force will also facilitate in the

'wiping' action that is supposed to break any copper oxidation and displace any contaminates such as those coming in from

the weep hole. [controversial statement 3] Even if dirt does get on the switch contacts the

wiping action should displace the dirt. When looking at the copper contacts in PICTURES I see no dirt. What would a white

glove inspection reveal?



The next picture is included to show the tracks where the tip of the bumps has wiped the contacts. From the plowed

furrows in the plastic and copper terminals you can see how much force the springs get on the tips of the moving contacts.



The next picture is just another shot that shows dirt on the switch innards let in by the weep hole.



[controversial conclusion] The primary source of IS failure is heat, most likely as the result

of too much current for the tiny contact area of the bumps on the moving contacts. This may be compounded by

insufficient spring force or non-vertical movement of the spring loaded contact. Other contributors may be

soldering problems, the white plastic contact carrier has too low a melting point and heat fatigued springs becoming

too weak to force a solid electrical connection.

Another indicator that excessive current generates excessive heat is Chris's IS failure coming home from EOM. His

external sky-wired toggle switch melted leaving him in a highly safety compromised situation on a congested highway.

Well, the Friday fodder is ready for some bruising.

ionbeam, good write up. when I worked in the AC field we would check the voltage across the contacts on the big relays. If there was a drop we would change out the relay because if we didn't the componets down the line would fail sooner because of the voltage drop.

Nice post, Ionbeam. Its good to get all that in one place.

This was my understanding of the problem too. Which brings up a few poignant observations:

Assuming the Gen1 switch is basically the same affair, why so many fewer (if any) confirmed failures of this same type? Considering they have been around longer one would expect the failure rate to be higher if this was contamination based. But that has not been the case. In reality it appears that many of the 2006 MY failures happened quite early in the bike's life. So either the load on the 2nd gen switches is significantly greater or there is some physical difference between the assemblies that makes the 2nd gen switches less robust.

The weep hole seems to allow ingress primarily to the mechanical detent area at the bottom end of the switch assembly. It appears more likely that any contamination of the switch contacts would come from above, perhaps from the lock cylinder area. Perhaps from people lubricating their locks in an attempt at "preventive" maintenance?

The weep hole seems to allow ingress primarily to the mechanical detent area at the bottom end of the switch assembly. It appears more likely that any contamination of the switch contacts would come from above, perhaps from the lock cylinder area.

Click to expand...

I believe that the mechanical top half of the switch is pretty much sealed and isolated from the bottom electrical half of the switch. I had suggested something similar to what you said a couple of years ago (not IS failure related) and was taken to task and edjukated about the way the switch is assembled.

ionbeam said:

The weep hole seems to allow ingress primarily to the mechanical detent area at the bottom end of the switch assembly. It appears more likely that any contamination of the switch contacts would come from above, perhaps from the lock cylinder area.

Click to expand...

I believe that the mechanical top half of the switch is pretty much sealed and isolated from the bottom electrical half of the switch. I had suggested something similar to what you said a couple of years ago (not IS failure related) and was taken to task and edjukated about the way the switch is assembled.

Click to expand...

OK, I'll take your word for it and consider myself edjukated as I have not had my switch apart. It just appeared that it could happen from this picture:

Nice write up and summary Ionbeam - thanks.

Again it seems that Brodie's "IS Relay" is the ultimate and permanent fix to this problem (after relieving the zip-tie induced stress on the IS wires), since without a large current flow through the contacts all other direct and indirect factors will become almost insignificant and IMHO will not lead to the IS failure.