intermittent starting problems

bhkfjr · Mar 19, 2010

A few weeks ago after stopping for gas I turned on the key, waited for the initial cycle to end, hit the starter and got a brief stutter and no fire-up. You know how it usually is - a couple revolutions, it catches and fires right up. I didn't think anything of it except it was a little odd. Tried the starter again and it just kept turning over - no start. Turned the key off, waited a few seconds, hit the starter - no stutter, no fire, just turning over. Recycled everything again, hit the starter and gave it some throttle at the same time and it fired up. This was the first it ever did this.

During a recent 3 day trip this same sequence was more frequent - about one out of three starts after fuel stops needed the extra fuel by twisting the grip while depressing the starter button. Seems like the fuel rail isn't filling as it apparently is not getting the gas it needs to fire up unless I add some from the throttle.

I go to the dealer for some routine maintenance soon. Any advice on what they should look at ? Fuel filter, fuel pump, throttle position sensor ??? does anyone else have to start their bike this way? Bike has 89k, PCIII, and has always started right up, hot or cold.

johnny80s · Mar 19, 2010

Check the ground on the Power Commander.

Has you bike had the ignition switch recall done?

Zorlac · Mar 19, 2010

Just a thought.

RadioHowie · Mar 19, 2010

How's yer cam timin'?

(running fer cover................

)

C&C · Mar 20, 2010

I'm thinking leaky injector (causing a flooded condition). Crank with throttle cracked (letting in enough air to clear the flood) and allowing the start. WAG

ionbeam · Mar 20, 2010

Seeing you have a Gen II I have to ask the now classic question, "What are your RPMs at idle when hot?" You said, "...gave it some throttle..." This is not the same as holding the throttle wide open as for a flooded engine. Your hot idle speed should be 1,000 to 1,100 RPM; IMO your idle speed should be 1,100 RPM.

Simple stuff first, it could be this easy.

bhkfjr · Mar 20, 2010

Sorry, should have been clearer in original post.

Warm idle speed is perfect and consistent at 1100 rpm. Engine is definitly not flooded. Additional throttle added to start bike is minimal - 1/4 - 1/2" turn, just enough to give it a little extra gas. I turn the throttle at the same time I crank the starter and it catches and fires up. This is why I think it's not getting enough gas to initially fire. Bike runs fine in all other respects.

Cold starts have been no problem.

This has me concerned because of the increasing frequency. I realize the problem could be almost anything including weak battery or plugs. That's why I was hoping someone has had the same symptoms.

Note to Howie-- Cam timing still perfect. I think of You and Chalupas every time I ride.

RadioHowie · Mar 20, 2010

bhkfjr said:
Note to Howie-- Cam timing still perfect. I think of You and Chalupas every time I ride.

:rofl:

I'll come collect one day!

HaulinAshe · Mar 30, 2010

As painful as it is to give you these five suggestions, and PLEASE understand that I'm shooting in the dark with nothing more than instinct at this point...

You know there could be a million different causes, but here goes...

1. PC-III - It's the simplest large object to eliminate from the list. I wouldn't physically remove it, just plug the ECU directly back to the fuel injector rail and let the PC-III sit on the bike.

2. Ignition switch - If it's not been replaced yet under warranty, then it's probably due. My '07 did some pretty bizarre things on hot stops when my ignition switch began failing.

3. PAIR (Air Induction) System - I've seen those PAIR system reeds so carboned that they are blowing back past the solenoid valve (which gets carboned too) and killing your intake velocity. I'd toss that system and use cover plates to cap the system, no matter what else you find wrong.

4. Valves - The hard to restart problem you describe is a classic, CLASSIC symptom of 4-stroke motorcycle engines with a burned, carboned, or mal-adjusted intake valve. It only takes a TINY leak of compression stroke past an intake valve, to totally kill the low-rpm starting ability of a hot engine. If it's a kickstart engine (Yami dirt bikes use the same valve technology) you curse it and fall to the ground in a huffing, sweating mass of anger. Since it has an electric starter, you give it extra throttle and that finally produces enough intake volume to get one cylinder to fire. A hot intake valve with cold clearance of .004" or less, could be leaking enough when hot to cause the problem you describe. But I would not go there first. It's just an idea.

5. Carbon - You can use SeaFoam fuel treatment ($9 / 16 oz. can at AdvanceAuto/AutoZone/etc) to clear the carbon. I use four lengths of vacuum hose attached to the TBS nipples. Warm the engine WELL. Rev the motor to 5,000 or so steady RPM and shove all four hoses into the can of SeaFoam at once. Usually sucks about 2/3 can before the engine croaks and dies. Let her sit for 5-10 minutes, fire it up and tell the neighbors your house is NOT on fire. You've never seen such smoke, but it works! It does one helluva job removing carbon deposits from the valves.

Good Luck!

RadioHowie · Mar 30, 2010

HaulinAshe said:
As painful as it is to give you these five suggestions, and PLEASE understand that I'm shooting in the dark with nothing more than instinct at this point...You know there could be a million different causes, but here goes...

1. PC-III - It's the simplest large object to eliminate from the list. I wouldn't physically remove it, just plug the ECU directly back to the fuel injector rail and let the PC-III sit on the bike.

2. Ignition switch - If it's not been replaced yet under warranty, then it's probably due. My '07 did some pretty bizarre things on hot stops when my ignition switch began failing.

3. PAIR (Air Induction) System - I've seen those PAIR system reeds so carboned that they are blowing back past the solenoid valve (which gets carboned too) and killing your intake velocity. I'd toss that system and use cover plates to cap the system, no matter what else you find wrong.

4. Valves - The hard to restart problem you describe is a classic, CLASSIC symptom of 4-stroke motorcycle engines with a burned, carboned, or mal-adjusted intake valve. It only takes a TINY leak of compression stroke past an intake valve, to totally kill the low-rpm starting ability of a hot engine. If it's a kickstart engine (Yami dirt bikes use the same valve technology) you curse it and fall to the ground in a huffing, sweating mass of anger. Since it has an electric starter, you give it extra throttle and that finally produces enough intake volume to get one cylinder to fire. A hot intake valve with cold clearance of .004" or less, could be leaking enough when hot to cause the problem you describe. But I would not go there first. It's just an idea.

5. Carbon - You can use SeaFoam fuel treatment ($9 / 16 oz. can at AdvanceAuto/AutoZone/etc) to clear the carbon. I use four lengths of vacuum hose attached to the TBS nipples. Warm the engine WELL. Rev the motor to 5,000 or so steady RPM and shove all four hoses into the can of SeaFoam at once. Usually sucks about 2/3 can before the engine croaks and dies. Let her sit for 5-10 minutes, fire it up and tell the neighbors your house is NOT on fire. You've never seen such smoke, but it works! It does one helluva job removing carbon deposits from the valves.

Good Luck!

Thiis list, especially #5, should be copy'n'pasted to everyone's PC. I know I did.

Good summation, Attorney Ashe!

bhkfjr · Mar 30, 2010

Thankyou Jeff for the well-reasoned reply. This thing has kind of got me spooked. Here's why...

13k miles ago I had the cam chain replaced along with the tensioner (had the ignition done ages ago) and did the valve check at the same time. Valves were reported to be in spec. I then went on a 3 day mini trip and the bike didn't feel right. I took it back to the dealer and the drama began. I had them tear it back down to check the timing. I observed the exhaust cam to be off by a tooth--they said it was as good as it is and would never be perfect due to the high mileage on the bike. There we were--stalemate.

Thanks to RadioHowie's pictorial on cam timing and your tips on how to see the marks on the exhaust cam, I convinced them to rotate the exhaust cam back a tooth and VOILA, it lined up perfectly!! They put everything back together and the bike ran the way it was supposed to. Except about 5k miles later I look at the coolant resevoir and I dont see any between the lines. I added about 4-6 oz. to bring the level up and then watched it over the next 5k. I seem to be loosing about 1oz. every 1k miles.

Took it to the dealer and they inspected all the hoses and external fittings and didn't see any signs of leakage. Maybe something wasn't put back together right at the valve check. What does coolant in the oil look like ?? And finally.....whew....

Could this coolant loss be in any way associated with the starting issue??

HaulinAshe · Mar 31, 2010

My guess is you're losing coolant because they didn't clean the coolant rail down pipes and did NOT replace the O-rings on said pipes. Coolant is oozing out around the flanges where the rail connects to the head. Probably not causing the hot start problem IMO, but a true PITA nonetheless.

The whole "won't re-start when it's hot" syndrome is typically because of an overly-rich mixture entering the cylinders. Sticky injectors will cause that problem too, so for sure, run some fuel system/injector cleaner through it for a couple tanks.

Any mechanic who says simply "valves are in spec" didn't do their job. What were the clearances, exactly? Did all the buckets rotate freely with finger pressure? It's only human and way too easy to screw-up timing an FJR. I've done it more than once, but it never leaves my loving arms until I know she's right.

Please report back. I love being wrong, especially if it saves you money and time.

HaulinAshe · Mar 31, 2010

bhkfjr said:
... What does coolant in the oil look like ??

Oil will appear milky or cloudy when hot. After it cools, you may see spots of water or what looks more like condensation in the crankcase. Best way to find it is to crank the engine and let it run for only a minute or two. Then drain the oil into a clean pan for inspection.

C&C · Mar 31, 2010

Losing coolant, with no visible signs of where it is going (you might see a little extra white smoke from the exhaust), could also be a head gasket; hoping it's not, but it is a possibility.

wfooshee · Mar 31, 2010

I agree (i.e., it's my guess, too) with the coolant pipe O-rings being the coolant loss. Water seeps out and evaporates, no puddles or pools anywhere, and with a small enough volume, no "hot motor" smell. And the fact that those have been opened and the head gasket hasn't points there, too.

Needing WOT to start is a flooding symptom as well as a leaky valve symptom. RH was challenged the other day and responded admirably with a visual fuel injector inspection procedure. Be sure and note one small correction to that in this post.

As for "wet" oil appearance, if it's bad enough, you get water for a bit before you get oil when you yank the drain plug. Saw that on a neighbor's Chevy Vega once.

charismaticmegafauna · Mar 31, 2010

HaulinAshe said:
Any mechanic who says simply "valves are in spec" didn't do their job. What were the clearances, exactly? Did all the buckets rotate freely with finger pressure? It's only human and way too easy to screw-up timing an FJR. I've done it more than once, but it never leaves my loving arms until I know she's right.

According to the FJR FSM: "Adjusting the Valve Clearance

4. Measure:

valve clearance

Out of specification --> Adjust.c. Measure the valve clearance with a thickness gauge.

NOTE:

If the cleance is incorrect, record the measured reading."

More-times-than-not (from posts on this Forum), the valve clearances have been 'correct' when checked.

The above applies, especially, to the 'non-A.R.' among us who feel that correct valve clearance is found by interpreting the FSM's directives into a "Go -- No-Go" measurement: IOW, if a 0.15mm goes and a 0.22mm doesn't (Intake) ~ then the adjustment is 'in spec'.

And, as you mention, camshaft timing is a somewhat difficult process... Why go there if it isn't 'necessary'...?

bhkfjr · Apr 7, 2010

UPDATE

Put in fresh plugs and disconnected PC111. Rode around for a little while...yucko. I forgot what a difference the P.C. makes. I hooked it back up and decided to test just the plug replacement. Good for 200 mi. and then no start again without addn'l throttle. Crap.

Well, onto the next hopeful fix...fuel injector cleaner. Got some STP injector cleaner but at the checkout counter the sales guy said to try this stuff from Lucas, it's better and on sale....so I did. There were no directions as to how many ounces of cleaner per gals of gas so I added 1/2 a bottle for the first tank and then the other 1/2 on the 2nd. I have always been somewhat skeptical regarding fuel additives but I figure it can't hurt anything and who knows, maybe they actually do something and maybe I really do have clogged injectors. Glug, glug, lets ride it out.

O.K., seriously.......This was my like my bike drank from the Fountain of Youth. Not only does it start correctly but it also idles stronger, and accelerates like new again! 90k on the odometer and the only thing I've run thru it was gasoline and apparently the injectors really were clogged up. Not only solved the starting problem but also got a big boost in performance.

Just in the last few weeks, with the help of this forum and some luck, I've addressed 3 issues successfully and with little $$

1. Spacers on V-stream-- really cuts down buffeting......... $ .57 for 12 washers and 2 bolts

2. Bike dies on freeway-- loose battery cable......... roadside fix $ 00

3. No start when hot ---- fuel injection cleaner....... on sale $ 4.95

I should go now..... gotta buy some lotto tickets.

Fred W · Apr 7, 2010

sorry can't reply. Running out to buy Lucas fuel injection cleaner.

intermittent starting problems

Help Support Yamaha FJR Motorcycle Forum:

bhkfjr

Well-known member

johnny80s

Turtle Gears

Zorlac

Well-known member

RadioHowie

I Miss Beemerdons!

C&C

Well-known member

ionbeam

2 FUN

bhkfjr

Well-known member

RadioHowie

I Miss Beemerdons!

HaulinAshe

Well-known member

RadioHowie

I Miss Beemerdons!

bhkfjr

Well-known member

HaulinAshe

Well-known member

HaulinAshe

Well-known member

C&C

Well-known member

wfooshee

O, Woe is me!!

charismaticmegafauna

Well-known member

bhkfjr

Well-known member

Fred W

1 Wheel Drive

Similar threads

Latest posts

intermittent starting problems

Help Support Yamaha FJR Motorcycle Forum:

Well-known member

Turtle Gears

Well-known member

I Miss Beemerdons&#33;

Well-known member

2 FUN

Well-known member

I Miss Beemerdons&#33;

Well-known member

I Miss Beemerdons&#33;

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

O, Woe is me!!

Well-known member

Well-known member

1 Wheel Drive

Similar threads

Join the conversation!

Join today and get all the highlights of this community direct to your inbox. It's FREE!

I Miss Beemerdons!

I Miss Beemerdons!

I Miss Beemerdons!