FJRF009.0: Ground Spider Research

canucklehead-biker · Jul 12, 2010

Had a follow up from Transport Canada this morning on the incident report I filed last week.

They have an open file on the problem and are apparently working with Yamaha Canada on the solution.

One thing they mentioned... so far only 3 reports in Canada. I was sure there were more, possibly he was only talking about '06 models, or maybe AE's.

If there's anyone out there that hasn't reported this, they need to go to the link that Bramfrank provided on the first page of this thread and make sure the authorities know about it.

As the fella said to me "the more reports, the faster we can get this resolved"

Griff

fjrcurious · Jul 25, 2010

I have been to two separate Yamaha dealers looking at new FJRs in the last week. In both places, they denied knowing anything about this issue and ans said they heard "something" about the ignition switch.

TILAM · Jul 27, 2010

I mentioned it to an old friend who is now the manager at a new Yamaha shop. He looked puzzled too. Said he hadn't heard anything either. I trust him when he said he didn't know about it.

I guess Yamaha hasn't been giving the dealers any clues at this point, but they were the same way about the ignition awitch issue too.

MartyA · Aug 5, 2010

Is July 12 the last post on spider bites?

2007 39,000 or so miles on the dial, in the shop but that is close.

VIN 003523.

In anticipation for a trip to South Dakota and Wyoming, I inspected the spiders 3 weeks ago, shoved dielectric grease in them, saw no bit of corrosion or burning or anything. They looked pristine and new.

The S4 spider bit me in Yellowstone NP on Sunday. I immediately recognized the symptoms from dustyrains post. There was no warning. We rode from Cody to Yellowstone via Chief Joseph and after pulling into the Tower Falls gift shop parking lot for a stretch it would not restart.

This is what the cover looked like in the parking lot - not much, but NOT there 3 weeks ago:

$664 tow (by the tow company exclusively designated by our wonderful Park Service in Yellowstone - 45 miles and 5.5 hours idling along with the tourists at $115 per hour, plus tax) to the park east entrance and $414 tow 54 miles to my motel in Cody (still 2,000 miles from home) says EVERYONE should fix this, regardless of a lack of symptoms or the pristine appearance of the spiders and connectors.

My only electric farkles are a Starcom wired directly to the battery with a 3 (2?) amp fuse and a Garmin wired into that with a 1 amp fuse.

I was completely in love with my FJR and now I am completely disgusted with Yamaha. What is the total now? - bad ignition switch, stupid programming in the ECM, CCT destruction (heck my XS11 had a better CCT in 1978 fer crissakes), completely inadequate wiring design, what's next??? All of these failure can leave you either dead on the road or severely and suddenly incapacitated and in peril for your life. Just an hour or so prior to my S4 bite I was sideways on Chief Joseph at 8,000 feet with Sally on the back thoroughly enjoying the limits of the FJR suspension and tire traction.

Does anyone know if YES cover roadside assistance? I called my insurance company first for their roadside assistance and they said they would cover up to 75 miles. Later they said they would cover the full tow, but I doubt they know it is over $1,000 USD. I would be happy to suggest to my insurance company that they might recover the claim payments from Yamaha.....

BTW that "SAFERCARS" web link is bad, I can't locate the place to post for the failures.

MartyA · Aug 5, 2010

Found Safercars and filed a complaint. Now on to the insurance company.

scubatech · Aug 5, 2010

MartyA said:
Is July 12 the last post on spider bites?
2007 39,000 or so miles on the dial, in the shop but that is close.

VIN 003523.

In anticipation for a trip to South Dakota and Wyoming, I inspected the spiders 3 weeks ago, shoved dielectric grease in them, saw no bit of corrosion or burning or anything. They looked pristine and new.

The S4 spider bit me in Yellowstone NP on Sunday. I immediately recognized the symptoms from dustyrains post. There was no warning. We rode from Cody to Yellowstone via Chief Joseph and after pulling into the Tower Falls gift shop parking lot for a stretch it would not restart.

This is what the cover looked like in the parking lot - not much, but NOT there 3 weeks ago:

$664 tow (by the tow company exclusively designated by our wonderful Park Service in Yellowstone - 45 miles and 5.5 hours idling along with the tourists at $115 per hour, plus tax) to the park east entrance and $414 tow 54 miles to my motel in Cody (still 2,000 miles from home) says EVERYONE should fix this, regardless of a lack of symptoms or the pristine appearance of the spiders and connectors.

Hi Marty,

It amazes me too that an electrical plug can be so clean and serviced one day an fried the next. I guess it shows that I'm no electrical genius. Very frustrating though. I think my 2007 is a nicer bike than my 2005 was. I hope through learning from others here that I installed my harnesses in time. I would be as mad as you are!! The Gen I wiring is so solid and reliable I don't see why Yamaha messed with a good design? Good luck on the fix.

My only electric farkles are a Starcom wired directly to the battery with a 3 (2?) amp fuse and a Garmin wired into that with a 1 amp fuse.

I was completely in love with my FJR and now I am completely disgusted with Yamaha. What is the total now? - bad ignition switch, stupid programming in the ECM, CCT destruction (heck my XS11 had a better CCT in 1978 fer crissakes), completely inadequate wiring design, what's next??? All of these failure can leave you either dead on the road or severely and suddenly incapacitated and in peril for your life. Just an hour or so prior to my S4 bite I was sideways on Chief Joseph at 8,000 feet with Sally on the back thoroughly enjoying the limits of the FJR suspension and tire traction.

Does anyone know if YES cover roadside assistance? I called my insurance company first for their roadside assistance and they said they would cover up to 75 miles. Later they said they would cover the full tow, but I doubt they know it is over $1,000 USD. I would be happy to suggest to my insurance company that they might recover the claim payments from Yamaha.....

BTW that "SAFERCARS" web link is bad, I can't locate the place to post for the failures.

bramfrank · Aug 12, 2010

Update from Transport Canada

Had a chat with the officer in charge of shepherding the problem through the bureaucracy. He informs me that as of today, owners of only six Canadian machines have reported suffering the problem and hat Yamaha Canada has something less than a month to comer up with a report.

Now, for medical reasons on my side Yamaha has been unable to inspect my bike, though you'd expect that they could come to my place to do 'their thing' if I can't ride the bike to the dealer's location; So I suspect that they may choose another of the complainants' bikes to scrutinise.

The officer tells me that he expects an action report from Yamaha because it is clear to him that there is a dangerous design defect that needs to be be dealt with and Yamaha's position is not made any stronger given their performance with the ignition switch issue.

So, sometime next month we should see some sort of reaction out of Yamaha.

I have no idea what is going on the the USA - someone has to pick up the gauntlet and chase the problem down, PHONING the NHTSA and getting them to keep the ball rolling (or more likely START the ball rolling).

If your bike has been affected YOU MUST FILE YOUR REPORT and THE REPORT MUST MAKE IT CLEAR THAT THE PROBLEM IS BAD DESIGN RESULTING IN OVERLOADED, CORRODED CONNECTORS IN THE WIRING HARNESS and THE PROBLEM THREATENS LIFE AND LIMB.

bramfrank · Aug 21, 2010

[SIZE=36pt]It seems to me that U.S. users should probably start calling the NHTSA to to make their initial reports and should follow up on their filings.[/SIZE]

The [SIZE=36pt]www.Safercar.gov[/SIZE][SIZE=36pt] telephone number is: 888-327-4236[/SIZE]

ffejtable · Aug 22, 2010

It took Yamaha nearly 3 months to give me what they felt I was entitled to for my YES coverage.. Of course considering the circumstances, and the fact this is a KNOWN problem (even though to date they are mute on the subject), I expected a full reimbursement of the towing, as thats quite simply the right thing to do. They told both me and my dealer that they would dish out $150 for the problem, only to slap me in the face with covering $50 for a $462 bill.

My answer... I will never buy a Yamaha again, simple as that. Yamaha already screwed us all over with inadequate design, and they had an opportunity to make this right, and chose not to. The only way to send the message home is to spread the word of their lousy product and never buy their crap again. In the long run that will cost them more than what I feel I am entitled to. Dealing with their customer relations people is a joke, not once have I ever received a call back, and you only get to talk to their answering service. The two reps (Ty in CA and Diana in NC) I was speaking with refuse to give me a direct number. That just screams horrible customer service.

The only person I can get contact details for is their lawyer/general counsel, and quite honestly writing a letter seems like a lost cause.

bramfrank · Aug 22, 2010

Which is why you need to kick Yamaha in the nuts by complaining loud and often to the NHTSA.

bramfrank · Aug 26, 2010

What's wrong with this picture?

1.13 million Toyotas are recalled because of a potential defect in an engine control board that *may* have caused all of 3 minor accidents and here we have a very serious and proved design issue and no one in the relevant agencies seems to care?

Read about it here: https://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/cbc-art...mentid=25357273

Guys; I think Brodie's harness is the cat's meow, but it isn't a solution - it is a preventative measure that may (and quite probably) will stave off affliction.

But let's get fair here. Only a minority of FJR owners are members of this board and only a minority of the members actually come here on a regular basis, so the only way to protect the majority of Gen-II owners is to push the NHTSA into ordering a recall to correct Yamaha's crappy harness design.

Heck it could well involve supplying the Brodie solution to everyone, I don't know. but for the moment we have no idea whether anyone has been injured or killed and I for one don't want this to continue until someone we know is maimed or (dare I say it?) murdered because of apathy.

Canadians do it at the following URL: https://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/7/PCDB...p.aspx?lang=eng or better you can call Transport Canada at 800-333-0510 and do it by phone.

In the US it is The www.Safercar.gov and the telephone number is: 888-327-4236

MartyA · Aug 26, 2010

bramfrank said:
What's wrong with this picture?
1.13 million Toyotas are recalled because of a potential defect in an engine control board that *may* have caused all of 3 minor accidents and here we have a very serious and proved design issue and no one in the relevant agencies seems to care?

That's cause we're just low-life scum-of-the-earth bikers and not very important...

My opinion, your S4 will fail eventually. My experience, it can fail at speed.

I registered mine...

canucklehead-biker · Aug 27, 2010

bramfrank said:
What's wrong with this picture?
1.13 million Toyotas are recalled because of a potential defect in an engine control board that *may* have caused all of 3 minor accidents and here we have a very serious and proved design issue and no one in the relevant agencies seems to care?

Read about it here: https://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/cbc-art...mentid=25357273

***SNIP!***

Canadians do it at the following URL: https://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/7/PCDB...p.aspx?lang=eng or better you can call Transport Canada at 800-333-0510 and do it by phone.

In the US it is The www.Safercar.gov and the telephone number is: 888-327-4236

Agree that we all need to put this in front of the regulators and make enough noise that something gets done. The question I have is, once we've logged the incident with either TC or NHTSA, what next? Is there anything else we could/should do to keep the pressure on?

I sent my burned up parts to the TC investigators in Ottawa. Should I be following up on a regular basis to see where they are with this? Should I be sending notes to Op-Ed people at the local paper? Calling the consumer hotline/watchdog at a TV station?

Point is, the Toyota recalls happened at least in part because the media jumped all over it. Maybe we need to get them involved as well?

Griff

bramfrank · Aug 27, 2010

Griff;

I figure that posting the complaints electronically doesn't have the impact of calling and speaking to a live body; Perhaps we ALL (affected or not) should be calling the respective agencies to express concern and ask what they are doing about this?

Involving the media? I could see how they could use Yamaha as yet another example of an arrogant Japanese manufacturer trying to deny it's quality control issues - always considering that as far as the world of biking is concerned (OK, as far as I'm concerned), our machines are up there, luxury-wise - they are the Lexi (plural of Lexus?) of the bike world and we aren't getting any respect.

Maybe we should also be speaking to the AMA (American Motorcyclist Association - I already speak to too many doctors)?

canucklehead-biker · Aug 27, 2010

bramfrank said:
Griff;
I figure that posting the complaints electronically doesn't have the impact of calling and speaking to a live body; Perhaps we ALL (affected or not) should be calling the respective agencies to express concern and ask what they are doing about this?

Involving the media? I could see how they could use Yamaha as yet another example of an arrogant Japanese manufacturer trying to deny it's quality control issues - always considering that as far as the world of biking is concerned (OK, as far as I'm concerned), our machines are up there, luxury-wise - they are the Lexi (plural of Lexus?) of the bike world and we aren't getting any respect.

Maybe we should also be speaking to the AMA (American Motorcyclist Association - I already speak to too many doctors)?

I spoke directly with the TC investigators (actually, they called me a day or so after I logged the incident electronically), but haven't followed up since I sent my burned up S4 for their analysis. I'll call them back and see what's up.

I haven't had any contact with Yamaha directly, just a note from Scott when I asked (after I'd logged the issue with TC) whether they wanted me to bring the bike into a local dealer for a look... got a one-liner back saying that it was all in TC's court and that was that.

I dunno, maybe a note to Neil Graham at Cycle Canada or one of the other rags would raise the temperature and get this thing moving?

Will the AMA listen to a Canuck? We have CMA up here but they don't seem to have much of a voice.

Any other avenues we should be pursuing?

Just thinking out loud here.

Griff

bramfrank · Aug 30, 2010

Griff;

The AMA take my money for membership, so they OUGHT to be receptive to complaints from Canuks.

Maybe Griff's letters to MCN and Cycle Canada can elicit some publicity - Garmin recalled 1.3 million navigators for battery issues after NINE claims. Toyota recalled 1.13 cars after THREE non-definitive issues. Here we have more than a hundred affected machines out of a possible pool of maybe 10,000 and all we get is brushed off.

So today I delivered my '06 to the local Yamaha dealer. This isn't the dealer I bought the machine from, though I DID buy a bike there in 2003 . . . . the dealer I deal with is just too far away and Yamaha wouldn't come to my driveway to do their thing even though I do have an electrically operated hydraulic platform lift (which is for sale - see the relevant post if interested) and such.

Yamaha is supposed to be sending a factory tech from headquarters to check my bike tomorrow or Wednesday - though what they expect to find is beyond me since they have photos of the problem and access to all of the verbiage on this site.

I am certain that they'll somehow try to dismiss the issue as being the result of something I did, though each and every wired accessory has been connected to the battery through a relay and Blueseas fuse block.

The Alarm does control the turn signals and there is a headlight modulator in series with the headlight wiring - and the trigger for the relay is taken from the aux fuse output - the cruise has sensor inputs as does the speedo healer - but nothing that would point a finger at me.

I suggested to the sales manager that perhaps, since they still have '08s and such in the warehouse, I might be made happy by a quick elimination of about 50,000 miles from my odometer and a color change - he said he'd speak to them but sounded skeptical of my chances for success.

MartyA · Sep 2, 2010

Picked up the bike Tuesday night, all new wiring and Works of Art installed.

Dealer said I didn't owe them any money, it was warrantee work.

Ran 300 spirited miles Wednesday, no issues with the electric!!!!

bramfrank · Sep 2, 2010

Well I was reminded WHY I wouldn't have bought the FJR from the close by dealer;

I was assured that they would need my machine for 24 to 48 hours max. So on the second day, because I had to score a ride to the shop to collect my machine and that ride wouldn't get there before closing I called to arrange for them to leave my machine parked on the side of the dealership with the key in the glovebox - I would come by after closing and collect the machine using my spare key - I had a ride planned for that evening.

So, when I arrived at 6:15 (they close at 6) my bike was not outside, but there was a person locking up (turns out to have been the owner - the place was sold, so I hadn't met him). I asked him where my bike was and was brushed off. Only after I threatened to call the cops did he call and speak with the service manager and the word came back that Yamaha 'wanted my bike some more' and that I couldn't have it back.

Way to go with keeping me informed guys!

Well, a bit more threatening from me and some back from him - he had the nerve to tell me that I would be unwelcome at any of his 3 dealerships (I suppose business must be booming - not that I have ever actually been in any of them) and he grudgingly went to get my bike and wheeled it around from the back.

In the end he DID apologise.

I spoke with the local shop manager in the morning and was given the news that Yamaha had NOT sent an engineer, but just the local field rep - he didn't bring tools, but had a shop tech pull the tank for a quick look, however he was more interested in whether the ignition switch had been changed. Very scientific . . . NOT. A complete waste of my time and energy.

I note that there is now a small scratch on my gas tank that wasn't there when I brought it in. But what's the point of complaining to them? They'll just deny it. BTDT with that gang. They also left off a fastener (with the attendant nylon washer) from one of the key points on the dash panels - THAT they said to pass by and they'd order when I spoke to them just now - I wonder if they'll want me to pay for it the way they did when they broke the key on my old C10.

Now, I find out that Yamaha believes that my machine hasn't had the ignition switch recall done and they are insisting that I not ride the bike until it is completed (too bad guys, as an informed consumer I'll ride it when and if I want) . . . the switch is presumably at MY dealer and I simply haven't had the time to bring the machine in and wait while they do the work. Besides, the ignition switch issue is no worse than the spider one and with an unresolved spider problem I CAN ride my bike?

So I checked with my dealer and they say that the recall was performed.

I contacted Transport Canada and told them what happened. I suggested that Yamaha might try to blame the S4 problem on my bike on the undone recall - before I could explain that the improved switch would actually have made the problem worse (because there would be less voltage drop across the 'improved' switch assembly) HE pointed it out to ME.

He remains convinced that Yamaha will need to come up with more than just platitudes to resolve the problem for Canadians, but they still have a few weeks to get their report in to the government.

I wonder what's happening in the U.S.?

ffejtable · Sep 3, 2010

Sorry to hear about your issues, as I completely understand having to deal with this myself. I just don't have the time or energy to fight this with Yamaha, as companies seem more interested in cover ups and damage control than to just do the right this.. I don't understand it. As I stated before, I will be sure to let Yamaha know how I feel about them when it comes time to purchase my next bike.

I will try to follow up with NHTSA at least.. I don't know if they co-operate with the Canadian agencies on issues like this, but I will try to find out. If so I may need to get some information from you.

bramfrank · Sep 4, 2010

ffejtable said:
I may need to get some information from you.

Feel free . . . . .

Now I know why they 'forgot' to put in the screw & washer in the panel that covers the battery.

Turns out that they broke the 'A' panel where the panel goes under the fairing - it is a bit spindly at that point - well the hole is broken and the metal clip missing, so they had no place to thread the screw and washer - Of course, it was there when I delivered the bike to them. It isn't there now. While they were at it, they forgot to insert the plastic retainer clip for that panel that goes in the fork well (my term).

Did they think I wouldn't notice?

I had phoned and they said to see the parts guy, but when I went by today and explained what they'd done he said I had to speak to the service manager. But the shop was closed until after Labor Day.

As to the ignition switch recall? It WAS done. I believe that Yamaha was upset that they didn't see the yellow tape (I had pulled it off when I was doing something under the tank - it had started to peel).

And the 'owner' with whom I interacted when I went to collect the bike? He is actually the SON of the owner. Met the father today - a very nice man.

When the Spider recall is designed and released I will be bringing to bike to the selling dealer, you can be certain.

FJRF009.0: Ground Spider Research

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