FJRF009.0: Ground Spider Research

[Brodie]

bramfrank

I wish you good fortune in getting your main harness repaired/replaced on Yamaha's dime.

I believe we are at the stage in the game where Yamaha knows there is an issue and is actively researching the proper cost effective fix. We were at this point back in late 2008 with the ignition switch. Our bikes began dropping like flies with the faulty OEM unit. Several owners were on their 2nd or 3rd switch. Yamaha's only fix at the time was just replace it with another identical switch. Given time, the same failure mode reared its ugly head. What it took was enough people returning their bike to the dealer for repair that the company could study a sufficiently large sample, and come up with a sound design.

Yes, putting pressure on them via the NHTSA and/or Transport Canada helped, but it was sound research and engineering that brought about the ignition switch recall. Yamaha has a lot to look at when our bikes come into their hands...

• What actually happened?
• Why did it happen - possible chain of events?
• General condition of the bike
• All recalls performed?
• Mileage
• Enviromental conditions
• Maintenance history
• Stock - un touched machine?
• Or if modified, in what way?
• If modified, what is the quality level of the work?
• How skilled was the technician with design and execution?

There is a lot to consider, but with a large enough sample certain key elements will be recognized, and a proper fix can be engineered. I think they are in that phase. It will be interesting to see what their final design will entail. As we saw with the ignition switch, just by adding a wire and redesigning the wiper plate, a cost effective adjustment was made to their existing design. It may have added a couple of pennies to the overall price of the bike, and the recall was "somewhat" painless.

Everybody, please, if you are the victim of a spyder bite, get the bike back to the dealer if you can and help Yamaha identify the root cause. Be firm in that it should have never happened, but understand that the service department you are dealing with needs information and cool heads (on both sides of the counter) to affect a successful repair. Here is where being on good terms with your service manager pays major dividends.

[SIZE=12pt]Just as important... If you have a verified Spider byte, REPORT IT with your respective agency as outlined at the beginning of this thread.[/SIZE]

Yamaha will eventually fix this if they want to keep their reputation for excellent machinery and service.

Brodie

 

[Brodie]

<snip>As to the ignition switch recall? It WAS done. Turns out that Yamaha was upset that they didn't see the yellow tape (I had pulled it off when I was doing something under the tank - it had started to peel) ...

bramfrank,

I know you are up to speed on this, but it's good to keep in mind...

               If the yellow tape is missing, for whatever reason, a real quick way to verify that it is a recall switch is to look for that 3rd wire in the pigtail.

Note that the red and white wire share the same connector blade. The original ignition switch lacks this white wire.

Just thought I'd help.



Brodie

 

[BackintheSaddle]

For those that have not yet performed a more permanent fix, I stumbled across these at a local Home Depot this past weekend: Ground

They came in a four or five pack and would probably work short term if you get "bit" on the road. May be worth throwing a couple into your tool kit, bags, etc to have "just in case." They may be available at other hardware stores along the way if you get in a jam.

(Admins - not sure if I posted this in the correct place; please move as appropriate.)

 

[Fred W]

Picture of above:

This appears to be a wire nut with a ground pig tail on it. It would electrically accomplish what you are looking to do, but I would never trust a wire nut to maintain a good electrical connection on the environment of a motorcycle. They are not good at maintaining their tenuous connection when exposed to vibration or weather, although they could be taped up to help mitigate the weather.

Much better to just buy the pigtail and find a friend that has the minimal soldering skills to do the job. I'd use heat sealing shrink wrap around the finished solder joints, but you could also just tape it up.

 

[bramfrank]

Soldering wiring harnesses in vehicles is a no-no. Solder is brittle and weathers badly.

The MAR connector, properly wrapped with the connection sealed with weatherproof tape is actually a better choice, though not ideal. More appropriate would be to use some form of compression fitting and to crimp the wires together and put a weatherproof covering over that.

 

[BackintheSaddle]

Picture of above:

This appears to be a wire nut with a ground pig tail on it. It would electrically accomplish what you are looking to do, but I would never trust a wire nut to maintain a good electrical connection on the environment of a motorcycle. They are not good at maintaining their tenuous connection when exposed to vibration or weather, although they could be taped up to help mitigate the weather.

Much better to just buy the pigtail and find a friend that has the minimal soldering skills to do the job. I'd use heat sealing shrink wrap around the finished solder joints, but you could also just tape it up.

Yep, that's exactly what it is. I agree that it is not an ideal long term solution but it would do for a temporary fix roadside if you got stuck on a trip. And they are an "off-the-shelf" item.

 

[Fred W]

Soldering wiring harnesses in vehicles is a no-no. Solder is brittle and weathers badly.

This is true, if you try to make the solder joint perform the mechanical support of the connection and leave the soldr connector without any weatherproofing. So don't do that. Mechanical support of the wiring should be provided. This can be as simple as a zip tie. Weatherproofing should be provided. Heat sealing shrink tube is one option. There are others

The MAR connector, properly wrapped with the connection sealed with weatherproof tape is actually a better choice, though not ideal.

I respectfully disagree.

More appropriate would be to use some form of compression fitting and to crimp the wires together and put a weatherproof covering over that.

Agreed. An appropriate sized compression lug may be the optimum solution. It will still need wiring support and additional weatherproofing unless intrinsically provided by the lug. An inappropriate sized fitting may be even worse.

Yep, that's exactly what it is. I agree that it is not an ideal long term solution but it would do for a temporary fix roadside if you got stuck on a trip. And they are an "off-the-shelf" item.

Sorry, I didn't understand that you were going to carry this as a safety net in case of the standard failure.

That makes perfect sense.

 

[bramfrank]

OK, this thread is drifting again (and I admit to being one of 'the Drifters'), but as the originator, I am taking the liberty of posting a follow up to my last 'experiential' posts before putting it back on track.

MY dealer called me today to say that Yamaha has approved replacement of the parts that they/the interim dealer (not sure which) broke during the inspection. At least they're accepting the responsability for the damage. They didn't offer to take the additional step of replacing the gas tank, but then the scratch is fairly minor and I had already indicated that there was likely no point in pushing anyone on the subject.

My fork seals are leaking and they've approved the warranty claim for that.

We're getting close . . . . now they need to approve and ship a replacement headlight assembly because the one on the bike is solvent crazed . . . again. My dealer told me he had claimed it in the fall, but the field rep was replaced and in spite of my mentioning it to him a number of times he has yet to follow up with the new one.

Now, lets get this back on track;

THIS THREAD IS FOR POSTING INFORMATION ABOUT YOUR SPIDER FAILURES AND ISSUES WITH THE NHTSA AND TRANSPORT CANADA. WORK-AROUNDS ARE TO BE DISCUSSED IN OTHER THREADS

 

[NorDog]

Contacted by TC today about a S4 spider failure (repaired by local shop) that I reported last week. The impression I received from the TC rep was that he was concerned about the implications of a ground failure and that this issue would be forwarded to Yamaha.

 

[bramfrank]

Thanks Nordog - your post prompted me to call Patrick (the person who called you) for an update - Yamaha was to have sent in their report after inspecting my bike by now;

They have a half dozen reports (not sure if that includes Nordog's) and they have been in contact with the NHTSA.

The comment about the NHTSA was that there didn't seem to be a lot of interest on their part when they were called. It could simply be that the sheer number of complaints wasn't large - he said that the US boys are driven by numbers - so you Americans, get out there and bitch.

The investigator tells me that they have asked Yamaha for more information; Their report was incomplete and apparently comprised of them somehow trying to blame my accessories by photographing the connections made at my battery (All my accessories except for the alarm are wired to a relay-controlled fuse block underseat that is connected to the battery using fused 10 gauge wire) . . . naturally that doesn't explain the other machines with this type of failure even if it did turn out that this was the cause of mine.

The officer agreed with me when I pointed out that this was the accepted manner and place for this type of connection and that they have a serious and justified reason to be very concerned about the problem.

IF YOUR BIKE HAS BEEN AFFECTED AND YOU HAVE NOT YET OPENED A CASE FILE, DO SO AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE AN AMERICAN - IT SEEMS THAT THE ELEMENT OF DANGER MAY NOT BE THE DRIVING FORCE, BUT RATHER THE NUMBER OF REPORTS FILED.

 

[shakin]

To reply to this to bramfrank;

I had issues returning home from NAFO riding in the rain where the bike just went dead. (i.e pulling back into the lane after passing a tractor trailer in the rain)

My bike is at the Yamaha dealers, and they have seen corrosion damage, and are waiting for a direction from Yamaha Canada.

Yamaha Canada seems to not be getting back to them. I have contacted Yamaha Canada myself (Karen from customer service, told me to pay to get a Yamaha dealer to inspect it and send them the report).

I asked for her Managers contact and was given Scott Harrisons' phone number. He has yet to call me back and I've been waiting 3 days (leaving a message daily with him).

Contacted TC and opened up a ticket with them.

Regards, Ian

 

[Fred W]

To reply to this to bramfrank;

I had issues returning home from NAFO riding in the rain where the bike just went dead. (i.e pulling back into the lane after passing a tractor trailer in the rain)

My bike is at the Yamaha dealers, and they have seen corrosion damage, and are waiting for a direction from Yamaha Canada.

Yamaha Canada seems to not be getting back to them. I have contacted Yamaha Canada myself (Karen from customer service, told me to pay to get a Yamaha dealer to inspect it and send them the report).

I asked for her Managers contact and was given Scott Harrisons' phone number. He has yet to call me back and I've been waiting 3 days (leaving a message daily with him).

Contacted TC and opened up a ticket with them.

Regards, Ian

This is getting way too goddamn close for comfort. Imagine if this had happened while you were still in mid pass with oncoming traffic?

I'm sorry, I know that it is important (for the well-being of all other FJR owners around the world) that these issues get reported to the appropriate gubmint agencies, so that eventually corporate Yamaha's hand will be forced to come up with an official solution. But that isn't going to help the guy that gets flattened by a tractor trailer in the meantime.

You have to look out for #1 and your family / loved ones. Do you think for one second that Yamaha will be taking care of them after you get flattened? Maybe the NHTSA or TC will? Fat frikken chance, Bunkie.

No sir, if I owned a 2nd Gen I would fix that problem before it has a chance to happen. That first time might be the one that does it.

Furthermore, I am not impressed with the solution Yamaha came up with for the last potentially deadly safety issue in the ignition switch meltdowns. It is a lame solution there, so why would we expect they will have a better quality one to this issue? So what are you waiting for then?

I must advocate that people get this issue fixed in one of the previously discussed manors before something really bad happens.

Friends don't let friends ride bikes with spiders.

Exterminate your spiders before they do the same to you.

 

[JamesK]

+1000 on Fred's post - fix the spider problem and you have all the time in the world to pursue this lost cause with Yamaha, NHTSA, or whoever you think can help or gives a damn.

We've seen numerous past posts, demonstrating the typical Dealer and Yamaha response to the Spider problem. Whereby if you have ANYTHING even a Cell Phone or GPS wired to the bike - the Spider issue is your fault. Given that they have a way to (legally?) avoid liability I don't see why Yamaha would be in any great hurry to spend a crap load of $$$ on this recall. This sounds pretty cynical I know but the Yamaha corporate is more concerned with the bottom line, so if they think they have an "out" I wouldn't be holding my breath for the recall, especially now with the slow economy and sales - whether we like it or not.

 

[Fred W]

This sounds pretty cynical I know but the Yamaha corporate is more concerned with the bottom line,

As they should be, IMO. They are a business that is responsible to their ownership to turn a profit. If they jumped on every possible safety issue, and threw big $$$ in recalls at them all, they would be out of business in a hurry.

But if you know about the possible problem and know a way to prevent it, yet procrastinate or intentionally delay the preventive action, who is really culpable then?

 

[yamafitter]

<!--quoteo(post=629549:date=Aug 18 2009, 04:24 PM:name=joeR6)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (joeR6 @ Aug 18 2009, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=629549"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyone know if Brodie's Wiring Harness would help this issue? I have not had any problems described (knock on wood) but I did install this wiring harness last winter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

No. The Brodie wiring change only has to do with the ignition switch. This is a totaly different issue.

Brodie actully has two wiring mods out there. The first is to repair the original ignition switch issue. The second is a ground wiring harness that directly resolves this issue.

 

[iboldguy]

This sounds pretty cynical I know but the Yamaha corporate is more concerned with the bottom line,

As they should be, IMO. They are a business that is responsible to their ownership to turn a profit. If they jumped on every possible safety issue, and threw big $$$ in recalls at them all, they would be out of business in a hurry.

But if you know about the possible problem and know a way to prevent it, yet procrastinate or intentionally delay the preventive action, who is really culpable then?

Quality issues and safety issues are different. A manufacturer should not be allowed to produce and sell products with known safety issues - neither lead in baby toys nor bad "spiders" in motorcycles.

There's truth in your 2nd statement in that we should accept responsibility for risk we knowingly take, but Yamaha should not transfer a known safety risk to it's customers.

 

[LAF]

All I have to say is in researching the FJR I came upon the Spider issue and was concerned. However after reading of the "fixes" or preventive items that hobbyist made to address them I considered it a minor expense. The LT had plastic elbows on the fuel lines that would break without warning and wet the right side of your bike and your right boot with gas. The answer was metal quick disconnects and a bunch of work to get her Tupperware off. We did it, we bitched about it, but we did it.

I equate the two. I wont go into the other issues of the LT.

So all is OK and I am aware of the problem, the erratic display symptoms, bike cutting off unexpectedly, and then the visual inspection of the spiders.

I forget the poster and apologize but he reminds us to post our failures to respected USA and Canada Safety centers. That is great work and needs to continue.

However his point on people who do not know? Do not get onto forums and read about the bike they ride. Now I know most of us would not buy a pencil without Internet searching it to death. However there are people who do not use a computer or at least the Internet. And while those percent of people are small, it still makes me uncomfortable to what may happen to them in some of the situations that have come to light.

The only solution I see is one of the add on grounding harnesses and spread the word to anyone we see on a FJR. Ask them if they are aware of it, if not give them the web page address here, if they are move on to another topic.

I do not think Yamaha will ever address the problem on this platform. We have seen by the "fixed" ones they replace the wiring harness with the same one that burnt up. Makes no sense to me. And to have my bike tied up by a dealer for that amount of time is crazy. And the end result is you are back where you started.

Not a slam on Yamaha at all, they are no different then any other vehicle manufacturer. Percent of failure to unites made equals an "acceptable" failure rate. They have a bottom line to protect and need to turn a profit to continue to stay in business. They are also not the only motorcycle manufacture that has bikes out there with unsafe known failure issues that are not being addressed.

Spend the money and ground your bike up, and ride it.

 

[Constant Mesh]

They issued a recall to fix the ignition switch overheating. A safety issue no doubt. Yet, a wiring harness failure can cause inadvertent shutdowns too. It must also be a safety issue.

Guess it's a lot easier and not so costly to redo the ignition switch. The labor cost to replace the wiring harness would be prohibitive.

 

[Ignacio]

A safety issue no doubt. Yet, a wiring harness failure can cause inadvertent shutdowns too. It must also be a safety issue.

Do you have evidence there have been a design-related harness failure issue? Other than the outstanding grounding spider issue I haven't heard of anything to warrant suspicion of basic wire harness issues. This seems to me to be coming out of left field.....what's the logic or what's failing to argue a wire harness replacement? :huh:

 

[Constant Mesh]

I would say the grounding (return) circuitry is part of the wiring harness. I think it's outrageous that owners have had to modify/add to the wiring harness to make it viable for the long term.

Yamaha should have stepped forward and fixed this problem at no cost to the customer.