Update on My Mechanical Woes

madmike2 · Oct 15, 2011

CAJW said:
Geez Mikes! It seems to be tough duty lately if you live near Sac, go by the name Mike and ride an FJR! Really stinks that they're both down with valve issues. Maybe it's something in the water? Best of luck to you both with a speedy recovery of both bikes and wallets.

I mean...er...one tries to be "easy" on their bike and never push rpms or cornering and look what happens.

I will still contend it's issues with the gasoline AND riding style. While I do run mine up the tachometer while merging onto highways and on an occasional back road, I don't regularly run it above 6k rpms. Maybe that is part of the answer. I don't know.

I hope this isn't the start of a trend! I know that some others have higher mileage but I also know that some ride their bikes a wee bit harder than I ride mine. That may be better for the engine. :dntknw:

The bottom line: This repair doesn't begin to mar the value of the joy of riding this bike, the places visited, scenery experienced or friends made while riding my FJR. :yahoo:

Fred W · Oct 15, 2011

I guess I don't understand the thinking that one has to red-line their engine often to keep it in good health. I think it is based on some bad logical extension that since you don't want to lug it at low rpm all the time, that living at the top of the RPM range must somehow be better for it. If a little is good, more must be better?

I don't think so. Higher rpm causes higher part velocities, resulting in higher bearing loads, therefore increased wear and tear on the engine. Running the engine between ~4000 and 6000 rpm is its happy range. You certainly aren't lugging it there and nothing much better happens at higher than that. I don't see how running the bike in these mid rpm ranges is attributable to increasing carbon buildup.

madmike2 · Oct 15, 2011

Fred W said:
I guess I don't understand the thinking that one has to red-line their engine often to keep it in good health. I think it is based on some bad logical extension that since you don't want to lug it at low rpm all the time, that living at the top of the RPM range must somehow be better for it. If a little is good, more must be better?

I don't think so. Higher rpm causes higher part velocities, resulting in higher bearing loads, therefore increased wear and tear on the engine. Running the engine between ~4000 and 6000 rpm is its happy range. You certainly aren't lugging it there and nothing much better happens at higher than that. I don't see how running the bike in these mid rpm ranges is attributable to increasing carbon buildup.

Yebbut...throwing it out there gets good responses, doesn't it?!?!

64Y80 · Oct 15, 2011

This issue is showing up in greater frequency on a lot of forums, both car and motorcycle. Some are claiming that the oil companies are significantly reducing the amount of additives in their gas to maximize profits, I don't know if it is true or not, but I plan to be more dilligent in adding a quality cleaner additive to both the car and the bike periodically.

madmike2 · Oct 15, 2011

64Y80 said:
This issue is showing up in greater frequency on a lot of forums, both car and motorcycle. Some are claiming that the oil companies are significantly reducing the amount of additives in their gas to maximize profits, I don't know if it is true or not, but I plan to be more dilligent in adding a quality cleaner additive to both the car and the bike periodically.

I'm not going to be so quick to judge the oil company's supposed greed when the government mandates certain formulations to meet EPA requirements. We'll never know the whole truth, we just hope it's best for our needs.

Here in California the state mandated gasoline additives that later proved to be polluting lakes and rivers and killing wildlife (MTBE: linky thingy). The media blamed the gasoline companies (and the uninformed population believed them) when the state required they add it.

64Y80 · Oct 15, 2011

madmike2 said:
64Y80 said:

This issue is showing up in greater frequency on a lot of forums, both car and motorcycle. Some are claiming that the oil companies are significantly reducing the amount of additives in their gas to maximize profits, I don't know if it is true or not, but I plan to be more dilligent in adding a quality cleaner additive to both the car and the bike periodically.

Click to expand...

I'm not going to be so quick to judge the oil company's supposed greed when the government mandates certain formulations to meet EPA requirements. We'll never know the whole truth, we just hope it's best for our needs.

Here in California the state mandated gasoline additives that later proved to be polluting lakes and rivers and killing wildlife (MTBE: linky thingy). The media blamed the gasoline companies (and the uninformed population believed them) when the state required they add it.

Yea, trying to place blame or find a bad guy is really a waste of time and energy, doesn't really solve anything. Whether there is a higher frequency of these problems or not, or if it's coincidence or not, or if it's reformulation for whatever reason, I'm just reminded to try and be a little more proactive in keeping the fuel system and valves clean. Of course then there's the problem of whether any of these products really work or are they just so much overpriced snake oil, I really don't know. I guess we could start a whole new NERPT about gasoline additives....not. On a side note, the latest craze on the car forums are catch cans. The people are routing the crankcase breather gases through a unit that more or less condenses some of the oil vapors out of the gas before being sent back through the intake. They claim it reduces buildup of the valves. Does it work, who knows. With something like catch cans, if they did work in addressing a real life problem, I have to believe there would be at least one car manufacturer including them as standard equipment.

madmike2 · Oct 15, 2011

There have already been several threads regarding fuel treatments: fuel additives site:fjrforum.com

Automobile manufacturers are governed and their practices policed by watchdog agencies. If anything did work but wasn't presented by the engineering department and approved by the EPA they couldn't add it to their products.

64Y80 · Oct 15, 2011

The EPA is only concerned with the final product (what comes out the tail pipe), how the company meets the exhaust gas requirements (that is what gizmos they choose to use) it totally up to the company.

dbx · Nov 2, 2011

Fred W said:
I guess I don't understand the thinking that one has to red-line their engine often to keep it in good health. I think it is based on some bad logical extension that since you don't want to lug it at low rpm all the time, that living at the top of the RPM range must somehow be better for it. If a little is good, more must be better?

I don't think so. Higher rpm causes higher part velocities, resulting in higher bearing loads, therefore increased wear and tear on the engine. Running the engine between ~4000 and 6000 rpm is its happy range. You certainly aren't lugging it there and nothing much better happens at higher than that. I don't see how running the bike in these mid rpm ranges is attributable to increasing carbon buildup.

When I was a kid in the early 1960's, the male adults around me used to talk about "winding her up now and then to blow out the carbon." I never bought into it and seem to have done alright with my vehicles, but maybe there's a bit of that mentality still lingering. For me and my FJR, "high RPM" is about 6000 RPM.

SkooterG · Nov 2, 2011

Jestal once did an excellent post on why it was good to at least occasionally run the engine WOT up the rev range. Though I don't remember the specifics, at the time I thought he made and excellent argument of why it is beneficial.

dcarver · Nov 2, 2011

madmike2 said:
Best guess: A piece of carbon lodged under an exhaust valve so it was partially open when the cam came around and slapped the valve bucket and dislodged the keeper.

Sounds very familiar to me...

KrZy8 had low compression, carbon under valve.

Clicky Me for Original Post

exskibum said:
madmike2 said:

Best guess: A piece of carbon lodged under an exhaust valve so it was partially open when the cam came around and slapped the valve bucket and dislodged the keeper. The keeper was inside the bucket, the shim is mushroomed...all NOT GOOD! The cylinders are good and still have the cross-hatch pattern in them but the piston tops are carbon covered as are the valves. Cam measures out to spec..

Since the head has to come off for a repair....I'm going the same route as Sacramento Mike and having the head rebuilt. Like Mike, when I total all that I've added to this bike (all interchangeable with another bike but lots of work) and the rewiring for farkles, etc., I'm spending the money to have mine repaired.

It's been interesting commuting on the KLR. Way more fun to "lane-share" but not nearly the weather protection I'm used to.

Click to expand...

Day-ummmm, Mike!!! You've been having some bad mechanical mojo on your FJR in the last year or so. I've got to get mine in for the first post tick repair valve clearance check in a couple or three thousand miles. But the more I read of this kind of thing, the more I think I may make it in sooner to see Zac soon and to pick up some Ring Free that I'll start to use regularly. I really fear that what you and Sacto-Mike have experienced is carbon deposit related. And who knows when or how that comes on?

Hope your bike is well soon.

Fred W said:
I guess I don't understand the thinking that one has to red-line their engine often to keep it in good health. I think it is based on some bad logical extension that since you don't want to lug it at low rpm all the time, that living at the top of the RPM range must somehow be better for it. If a little is good, more must be better?

I don't think so. Higher rpm causes higher part velocities, resulting in higher bearing loads, therefore increased wear and tear on the engine. Running the engine between ~4000 and 6000 rpm is its happy range. You certainly aren't lugging it there and nothing much better happens at higher than that. I don't see how running the bike in these mid rpm ranges is attributable to increasing carbon buildup.

I'm not so sure I agree Fred. If you regularly bump the rev limiter, then maybe. But carrying a huge torque load at lower RPM with incomplete combustion process has to be bad too, yes?

Since my carbonized valves, I've been running SeaFoam and 1 gear lower all the time, letting the engine sing to fully seat the rings under compression and decompression. SkooterG is right, Jestal had a great post about this, someone needs to find it...

My personal anecdote, fully unqualified from scientific point of view, is that SeaFoam/Higer Rpm's and KrZy8 is much happier. So there.

SkooterG said:
Jestal once did an excellent post on why it was good to at least occasionally run the engine WOT up the rev range. Though I don't remember the specifics, at the time I thought he made and excellent argument of why it is beneficial.

Yep... Got to find that thread. I wonder how Al is doing these days? Another member lost..

03HiYoSilver · Nov 2, 2011

This may be the link to Jestal's response:

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=11033&view=findpost&p=135554

RadioHowie · Nov 3, 2011

I believe Jestal's opinion on occasional bursts to WOT is HERE.

Fred W · Nov 3, 2011

Yeah, I followed those links to Jestel's posts.

In retrospect, the problem that they were actually working on eventually turned out to be an early example of a CCT on the way out, and making cam chain noise. In the discussion they blamed it on carbonized cylinder heads, etc, but the noise didn't go away until they played around with the CCT (a dangerous thing to do on a running FJR engine, as we all know). Hindsight is 20-20.

It was amusing to read some of the disinformation about CCTs in that thread. I guess that we have all learned a lot about them since then (thanks to the contributions of ionbeam, Howie, Patriot and others).

As to the "WOT to red-line and repeat X number of times every Y days is good for the engine" thing, I remain unconvinced. To me this smells like urban legend as there has never been any real proof that it helps, just a lot of anecdotal testimony. And we all know how reliable personal anecdotes are. Look at all the people that give positive testimony for things like throttle body risers and fuel line magnets.

I am definitely not advocating lugging the engine around at low rpms all of the time either. I think the happy place for the FJR engine is 4000-6000 rpm. per my prior post. And neither am I saying that spirited applications of the throttle is a "bad" thing. It's just that I don't believe it to be the general panacea for total engine well-being that some folks promote.

RadioHowie · Nov 3, 2011

Fred W said:
Yeah, I followed those links to Jestel's posts.

As to the "WOT to red-line and repeat X number of times every Y days is good for the engine" thing, I remain unconvinced. To me this smells like urban legend as there has never been any real proof that it helps, just a lot of anecdotal testimony. And we all know how reliable personal anecdotes are. Look at all the people that give positive testimony for things like throttle body risers and fuel line magnets.

I am definitely not advocating lugging the engine around at low rpms all of the time either. I think the happy place for the FJR engine is 4000-6000 rpm. per my prior post. And neither am I saying that spirited applications of the throttle is a "bad" thing. It's just that I don't believe it to be the general panacea for total engine well-being that some folks promote.

Funny you wrote this, Fred....having added the link to Jestal's post just before retiring last night, I awakened this morning planning on a ride to work that would include implementing some of the suggestions from the zombie thread.

So, on my 40 mile commute to work, I never took my 04 out of 3rd gear....wound the sh*t out of it, backed it off, wound it up, backed it off, etc. Repeated the cycle numerous times and kept the revs up around 7k-8k the entire drive in.

Two things I can report following the experiment.....the tips of my exhausts are completely sooted up, but the exhaust pipes (the internal ones) are clean as a whistle! I could even hear a change in the exhaust note, as if I'd cleaned them out. Also, the ol' 04 was running a touch warmer than normal, keeping the revs up as much as I did.

Did it do any good? Beats hell outta me, and I won't be doing it on a regular basis. Bike doesn't run any different and I probably ruined my MPG average on this tank.

LAF · Nov 3, 2011

64Y80 said:
madmike2 said:

64Y80 said:

This issue is showing up in greater frequency on a lot of forums, both car and motorcycle. Some are claiming that the oil companies are significantly reducing the amount of additives in their gas to maximize profits, I don't know if it is true or not, but I plan to be more dilligent in adding a quality cleaner additive to both the car and the bike periodically.

Click to expand...

I'm not going to be so quick to judge the oil company's supposed greed when the government mandates certain formulations to meet EPA requirements. We'll never know the whole truth, we just hope it's best for our needs.

Here in California the state mandated gasoline additives that later proved to be polluting lakes and rivers and killing wildlife (MTBE: linky thingy). The media blamed the gasoline companies (and the uninformed population believed them) when the state required they add it.

Click to expand...

Yea, trying to place blame or find a bad guy is really a waste of time and energy, doesn't really solve anything. Whether there is a higher frequency of these problems or not, or if it's coincidence or not, or if it's reformulation for whatever reason, I'm just reminded to try and be a little more proactive in keeping the fuel system and valves clean. Of course then there's the problem of whether any of these products really work or are they just so much overpriced snake oil, I really don't know. I guess we could start a whole new NERPT about gasoline additives....not. On a side note, the latest craze on the car forums are catch cans. The people are routing the crankcase breather gases through a unit that more or less condenses some of the oil vapors out of the gas before being sent back through the intake. They claim it reduces buildup of the valves. Does it work, who knows. With something like catch cans, if they did work in addressing a real life problem, I have to believe there would be at least one car manufacturer including them as standard equipment.

On my 300 HP PT Looser I use water collectors on my intake track, and from the PCV valve to the turbo intake. They both catch oil, but from the PCV to the turbo inlet really catches oil. Been on since day one 2003 when I bought it. It was a Forum read that had me do it and I have to say I believe it has saved my turbo from getting coked up with carbon.

You can buy them at Home Depot or any hardware store in the air compressor area. If someone knows for sure we have something like the PCV to the air tract I am all in.

However I think if I understand this correctly removing the PAIR does this? If so, mine is removed so no need?

If you do not wish to remove your PAIR I wonder if you cut it in from the nipple on the air box hose leading to the pair? They are not big and would fit for sure.

I also can say emphatically Sea Foam works, period. I used their fogging product before putting new heads and jugs on my 05 Road Glide and it was all shiny new, Nothing on the piston tops, and the twin 50 MM were spotless. However it will smoke like hell on the restart but clears up and life is good.

I love better living through chemicals. I have said it before Marvel Mystery Oil for top end lube of valve guides, Sea Foam for carbon, Techtron for fuel system, and finally Marine StaBil for phase separation. I use StaBil on every fill up and the others when I think about it. I am more diligent with the Marvel Mystery in the winter when the worst of the blending of gas is at it's highest. I like the idea of lubing that top end in the winter when ethanol seems to be at it's highest content over most of my part of the East Coast/PA.

RadioHowie · Nov 3, 2011

LAF said:
On my 300 HP PT Looser I use water collectors on my intake track, and from the PCV valve to the turbo intake. They both catch oil, but from the PCV to the turbo inlet really catches oil. Been on since day one 2003 when I bought it. It was a Forum read that had me do it and I have to say I believe it has saved my turbo from getting coked up with carbon.

You can buy them at Home Depot or any hardware store in the air compressor area. If someone knows for sure we have something like the PCV to the air tract I am all in.

However I think if I understand this correctly removing the PAIR does this? If so, mine is removed so no need?

If you do not wish to remove your PAIR I wonder if you cut it in from the nipple on the air box hose leading to the pair? They are not big and would fit for sure.

The FJR most definitely has a PCV system, and it most definitely is NOT part or parcel of the PAIR system.

The PCV hose runs from the top of the gearbox, below the airbox, and attaches to the front/top/middle of the airbox.

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